Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

[George S.]

some greeks got wiped out by wars,some spread all over the globe.Don't forget the black death claimed many people.Most are simply spread out.Don't forget greeks were colonisers.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Before we talk about evolution, define what you mean by the word!

I would like to stick with events, if we go into the subject of evolution than that might derail us. But to answer you in a few words. To change, adapt.

Second, the official Greek line is that those "Slavs" came out of somewhere, thus they were not genuine of the region.

True, that is my view as well.

That begs the question, how did they evolved from "Slavs" into "Greeks"?
By assimilation? Cultural adoption?

Correct

Also the question would be, how does that makes them eligible to claim continuity of any kind, where of Greeks generally accept that they where other people and had another culture before they adopted the so called Greek culture?

What do you mean ? We were not Slavs to start with. The Slavic element was absorbed by the Greeks, not the other way around.

Well the same evidence you prefer to wave here exists in favor of the Macedonian claim of continuity too!

The only difference is that we do not agree on how Ancient Macedonians were. You say they were not Greek, we say they were.

Why it should be acknowledged and accepted for the Greek but not for the Macedonian claim?

Politics and the fact we dont see eye to eye on Ancient Macedonia / Macedonians

In what way is it continuity for the Greekness of those "Slavs"?

Those Slavs are no longer Slavs, they were absorbed by the Greek Ethnos.

They ought to have been something else before they decided to become something different!

Again, its called assimilation.

Than they claim that what they actually adopted they were from time begin!

Im not sure I understood you.

How is that continuity (uninterruptedness) for the Greekness of the "Slavs" in Greece?

Because they adopted our language, customs, traditions. The only part that is Slav is a placename they once dwelled.

Same goes for all those Vlachs, Albanians, Macedonians, Turks etc. that claim to be Greeks from time begin.
Than they claim that what they actually adopted they were from time begin!

Makedonin, I think I understand what you are trying to say. Again, Assimiation is the key. I will get to the Vlachs and Albanians as we go.
Turks as I mentioned before are a nonfactor, due to the religion divide. I only consider Christian elements that have been absorbed by the Greeks since thats what we were and intermarried into. The Muslim ones are Turks now and that made things pretty easy.

[Onur]

That does not change the fact that whatever Slavs that remained in Greece were fully absorbed by the Greek population. Aside from toponyms, there is nothing to suggest they were there.

Do you realize what you just said? and how stupid it was?

The names of towns, cities are the most important evidence of the founders and/or the language of the majority of people who lived in that particular place. Thats exactly why Greece renamed all the Slavic and Turkish names of these towns ~100 years ago to make them appear as Greek territory.


Apart from that, The ancient Greeks has been vanished from history in about 4th century AD as the Roman historians said at that time. Then it`s started to be revived when eastern Romans decided to use Greek language after 8th century but the true deciding factor was East–West Schism of 11th century, when eastern Romans separated from Vatican. Thats when they started to reflect their orthodoxy with Greek identity. So, all in all, i believe that the patriarchy of Istanbul is the no.1 reason of continuity of Greek identity. But this continuity was only in ideological sense but never in ethnic sense because ancient Greeks completely disappeared from history roughly around 4th century AD, mostly by integrating in to the Roman Latin world.

That was the case `till 1789 French revolution. Then after that, western European philhellenes picked up where Byzantines left and leaded the Hellenic cause.

Btw, while mentioning the important role of Istanbul patriarchy for continuity of Greek ideology, i gotta say that Turks are indirectly involved in to this because it was Turks who let them do this at first place. For example, Ottoman rulers could have destroy Greek patriarchy in 1453, if they would have wanted to and then there would be no Greeks today but Ottoman rulers regarded them as a mediator to interact with christian population of the empire and patriarchy perceived Turks as a protection against catholics and a tool to regain whatever they lost to Latins after the sack of constantinople by crusaders. So, it was a relationship based on self interest of both sides.


In ethnic sense, today`s modern Greeks are no different than surrounding Balkan and Turkish population. So, they are just a mix of Albanians, Macedonians, Vlachs, Turks, Bulgars etc. just like all the other Balkan states.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Do you realize what you just said? and how stupid it was?

Did you even bother counting how many of them were in the previous link I posted ? And yes, I do realize what I said.

The names of towns, cities are the most important evidence of the founders and/or the language of the majority of people who lived in that particular place. Thats exactly why Greece renamed all the Slavic and Turkish names of these towns ~100 years ago to make them appear as Greek territory.

No, thats not why we restored / renamed them. I wasnt in the planning process but from my view it only makes sense. They are gone now, we are here. What is the point ? Again for the millionth time we still have plenty of Slav placenames in place.

Apart from that, The ancient Greeks has been vanished from history in about 4th century AD as the Roman historians said at that time. Then it`s started to be revived when eastern Romans decided to use Greek language after 8th century but the true deciding factor was East–West Schism of 11th century, when eastern Romans separated from Vatican. Thats when they started to reflect their orthodoxy with Greek identity. So, all in all, i believe that the patriarchy of Istanbul is the no.1 reason of continuity of Greek identity. But this continuity was only in ideological sense but never in ethnic sense because ancient Greeks completely disappeared from history roughly around 4th century AD, mostly by integrating in to the Roman Latin world.

4th century AD ? Source ? How did we vanish ?

In ethnic sense, today`s modern Greeks are no different than surrounding Balkan and Turkish population. So, they are just a mix of Albanians, Macedonians, Vlachs, Turks, Bulgars etc. just like all the other Balkan states.

The Greeks vanished in 4th AD yet you mention the Macedonians. Do you realize what you just said ?

[Daskalot]

The Greeks vanished in 4th AD yet you mention the Macedonians. Do you realize what you just said ?

Yes as in us Macedonians, are you trying to pass Macedonians as Greeks here Voltron?

[Voltron]

Yes as in us Macedonians, are you trying to pass Macedonians as Greeks here Voltron?

No, not at all. I think you understand what Im trying to say to Onur. Dont make it sound like something its not Daskale.

[George S.]

The greek version of slavs going through macedonia in the seventh century is that the macedonians got wiped out & now there are only slavs.How do you know that's what happened.THe Macedonian version is The macedonians also absorbed them as the slavs were illetrate & adopted the macedonian language.THe greek version is more convenient for the greeks
because they can say that macedonians ceased to exist.
So why is it that the greeks didn't get wiped out it's called propaganda. & the greeks would have no basis for their claim that macedonia belongs to them from 1913 onwards.I'ts not really about history but to do with a land grab decided in 1913 to divide macedonia up for themselves.It says greece wasn't happy with her share & wanted more.THe bulgarians have allways insisted that the whole of macedonia belonged to them.So who is right & who is wrong.Really macedonia belongs to itself to it's people.No body has a right to take away their lands as they forcefully did back in 1913.

[Voltron]

George, this doesnt have to turn out by negating each other. This isnt about Greeks and the Macedonian issue. This is just about Greeks. We got a good thing going lets not bring that type of baggage in here.

[George S.]

I'm putting it in contrast & in perspective.Why do they need to lie to the world that there are no genuine greeks unless you got something to hide.Why can't honesty be the best policy.You need to contrast & admit how your govt keeps hiding.

[El Bre]

So, let me ask you Voltron, what was the reason for changing the names of the villages in Aegean Macedonia where the "slavs" were alive, well and not absorbed by the "Greek Ethos"?

[julie]

Voltron , its not baggage . Its valid and the macedonian truth . El bre has asked a valid question and I dont disagree with comments by George

[Commander Bond]

Whilst Voltron ponders on how to answer El bre's question, I would like to show this excerpt that Risto Stefov wrote (sourcing Historian John Shea) in the American Chronicle back in 2008 as it fits in with the topic on hand.

"For over a century and a half, Greek State institutions, organizations and individuals have been making unproven and unfounded allegations that the modern Greeks are direct descendents of the Ancient Greeks. To this day they have shown no evidence to prove their claims. In fact the opposite is true. There is ample evidence that proves that this particular Modern Greek claim is wrong from the outset.

This exact issue was tackled by Historian John Shea in chapter 4 of The Great Ethnic Mix of Greece, pages 77 to 96, in his book "Macedonia and Greece, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation". Among other things, John Shea proves that even the ancient people were not homogeneous.

"It has been estimated that in classical times the number of slaves in Attica was roughly equal to the number of free inhabitants, or around 100,000. In Sparta there was an even greater proportion of slaves, and most of them, the helots, were Messenians. While the slaves of Athens were a wide racial mix and therefore less likely to unite on the basis of a common language, these Messenian helots of Sparta all spoke Greek, and had a kind of group self-consciousness. Thus they presented ´special problems of security for their Spartan masters, whose numbers were constantly on the decline.´ Changes in the ethnic composition of Greek city-states are illustrated by the comments about the case of Piso. Piso, who had been the recipient of an unhelpful decision by a vote of the Athenian city assembly, ´made a violent speech in which he said that the latter-day Athenians had no right to identify themselves with the great Athenians of the days of Pericles, Demosthenes, Aeschylus, and Plato. The ancient Athenians had been extirpated by repeated wars and massacres and these were mere mongrels, degenerates, and the descendants of slaves. He said that any Roman who flattered them as if they were the legitimate heirs of those ancient heroes was lowering the dignity of the Roman name.´ Such historical ideas make it clear that even two thousand years ago the notion of ethnic purity amongst the Greeks was difficult to sustain. The ethnic mix continued over the next two thousand years. As Nicol has observed, ´The ancient Greeks were, after all, of very mixed ancestry; and there can be no doubt that the Byzantine Greeks, both before and after the Slav occupation, were even more heterogenous´." (Pages 83 and 84, John Shea, Macedonia and Greece, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation)".

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/76327

[Voltron]

So, let me ask you Voltron, what was the reason for changing the names of the villages in Aegean Macedonia where the "slavs" were alive, well and not absorbed by the "Greek Ethos"?

George, El Bre,

Not all are changed / restored. I feel the best policy to this would be to keep the original name alive when speaking. We do it all the time between Greeks. Where are you going ? To Constantinople. If we talk to a foreigner we use Istanbul. I guess we just have to deal with it in some way.

[Voltron]

Voltron , its not baggage . Its valid and the macedonian truth . El bre has asked a valid question and I dont disagree with comments by George

Julie, understood. Just didnt want to get into that type of subject. We have so many of those. Yes, they are valid questions and comments. Im not trying to disregard them.

[George S.]

voltron do you know that greece just changed the names on the run.THe names of toponyms were thousands of years old .Greece just made them up.A few it forgot to change.