The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    The word khatun/hatun (lady, woman), a Turkic word most likely borrowed from an Iranian language, was mentioned well before the 12th century. It wasn't common in the Balkans before the Ottoman occupation and without having read the text in question (or knowing much about this Ioannes Trachaniotes), I'm not sure how it came to be that an Athonite monk would have used it in the year 1109.
    That's a very interesting proposed connection/origin of the word. I'm not sure how the term "Katun" became associated with Vlachs.

    Here is a random site, which defines "what" was a Katun - but doesn't go into the origin of the term:

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13674

      Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
      That's a very interesting proposed connection/origin of the word. I'm not sure how the term "Katun" became associated with Vlachs.

      Here is a random site, which defines "what" was a Katun - but doesn't go into the origin of the term:
      https://dictionary.university/Katun
      I mentioned khatun/hatun because of the reference to Vlach women in the screenshots you posted. If katun was meant as something else (like settlements) then it is probably a different word that coincidentally looks very similar. Page 623 of Fine's book doesn't go into the origin of the term either.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        By the end of the 15th century, the influence of the Italian language and culture (including in some ways the Roman Catholic church) assumed a predominant role in the island (Corfu).

        Until the second half of the 20th century the Veneto da mar was spoken in Corfu, and the local Greek language assimilated a large number of Italian and Venetian words, many of which are still common today. Indeed, even before the fall of the Byzantine Empire much of the population in Corfu spoke the Veneto da mar or the Mediterranean Lingua Franca Sabir as a second, or first, language.

        According to historian Ezio Gray, the small communities of Venetian-speaking people in Corfu were mostly assimilated after the island became part of Greece in 1864 and especially after all Italian schools were closed in 1870. However, the Italian language maintained some importance, as can be seen by the fact that poets like Stefano Martzokis (Marzocchi was the surname of the father, an Italian from Emilia-Romagna) and Geranimos Markonos, the first from Corfů and the second from Cefalonia, wrote some of their poems in Italian during the second half of the 19th century.

        URL:

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        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          In 1878, many Arvanitovlachs took part in the revolutionary movement against the Turks and after its failure, left for Corfu and Lefkada. In Corfu, most settled in Gatitsa. G. Weigand, in 1889, writes that the Arvanitovlachs of Corfu numbered about 2,000 families.

          Comment

          • sydney
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 390

            Originally posted by Carlin View Post
            By the end of the 15th century, the influence of the Italian language and culture (including in some ways the Roman Catholic church) assumed a predominant role in the island (Corfu).

            Until the second half of the 20th century the Veneto da mar was spoken in Corfu, and the local Greek language assimilated a large number of Italian and Venetian words, many of which are still common today. Indeed, even before the fall of the Byzantine Empire much of the population in Corfu spoke the Veneto da mar or the Mediterranean Lingua Franca Sabir as a second, or first, language.

            According to historian Ezio Gray, the small communities of Venetian-speaking people in Corfu were mostly assimilated after the island became part of Greece in 1864 and especially after all Italian schools were closed in 1870. However, the Italian language maintained some importance, as can be seen by the fact that poets like Stefano Martzokis (Marzocchi was the surname of the father, an Italian from Emilia-Romagna) and Geranimos Markonos, the first from Corfů and the second from Cefalonia, wrote some of their poems in Italian during the second half of the 19th century.

            URL:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfiot_Italians
            Regarding the piece in bold about the Italian schools - the Greeks sure move swiftly! I often question though whether the assimilated peoples suffer from Stockholm syndrome and quite like the notion of being “descendants of the ancients”.

            Comment

            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              URL:
              ABSTRACT Most of the pieces that make up this book gathered during the time I lived in Greece. The knowledge about Arvanites consisted of both my efforts to extract thorough information and their assistance to me. During my stay in Greece in


              Page 22: "Vangelis Liapis, a scholar and author of several books on Arvanites would say: One day at school, in history class, I was courageous and asked the teacher why the book does not say that those who brought freedom to Greece were Arvanites? The answer I got was two fierce slaps followed by silence. It was the second injury that was slowly starting to create a wound in my soul."

              Page 238: "Giannis Lazaris writes about why they are called Greeks today: Greeks did not exist even as a name. And there were no Greeks during the Ottoman period, of course. The inhabitants of the area of Greece were citizens of the Ottoman Empire, Romiots, i.e., Christians where some of whom spoke Romeika (who are abusively called Greeks today) and many other Arvanites, Vlachs, Turks, etc."

              Comment

              • YuriB
                Junior Member
                • Jan 2019
                • 54

                Hi all! I just ran into this article, which reminded me of this forum. You might know about it already but a quick search didn't show anything.

                The article suggests a much stronger connection of Greeks with farmers in Anatolia (modern day Turkey), Caucasus and Iran. Less of a connection but still present from hunter gatherers from the north. Having lived outside Greece for many years now, I can also confirm that the people who seem to look most like Greeks are Iranians, Turks and Iraqis. Although, the connection I see might be more recent due to the population exchange. Or maybe it's just me seeing this 😊

                BTW, hope you're all healthy given the COVID situation.. NZ, as you might know, is in lockdown..

                URL:


                Title:
                Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

                Abstract:
                The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6,7,8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.
                Regards,
                A Greek supporting self-determination of Macedonians!

                Comment

                • Risto the Great
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 15658

                  Difficult to dispute the physical characteristics that link them.
                  Risto the Great
                  MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                  "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                  Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332



                    Matthew II of Constantinople


                    Matthew II (Greek: Ματθαῖος Β΄), (? – 1603) was Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople three times, shortly in 1596, from 1598 to 1602 and for a few days in 1603.

                    Member of the Vlach community, Matthew was born in the village Kleinovo (now part of Kalabaka), and he became Metropolitan of Ioannina. In early 1596 he was elected Ecumenical Patriarch, but the election was not recognized because the Holy Synod that elected him was not attended by all the members; thus, after twenty days Matthew was forced to resign and moved to Mount Athos.

                    Comment

                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Some names from the Ottoman Thessaly (15th century), specifically in the area/region of Trikala. The time period is 1450s.


                      Village Gardiki

                      The increased number of Slavic names is remarkable here.

                      Nikolas and Dralas Stanisas. The name "Stanisas / Stanisis" is the Slavic name Staniša (IE * steh2-> PSlav * stati> sta-n-). I do not think George R. R. Martin had that name in mind when he coined the name Stannis Baratheon on GoT.

                      Nikolas Prodanis. The surname is the Slavic name Prodan "sold" (cf. prodati "sell").

                      Komanitsis Dobroslavos. The name is reminiscent of the surname of the Romanian athlete Nadia Comaneci, while the surname is the well-known Slavic name Dobroslav (OCS dobrŭ > dobros).

                      Rado's widow Rina. The name "Rados" is just another form of "Rado" (Slavic Rado).

                      Tanilas groom of Rados. Behind the name "Tanilas" is probably hidden the Slavic name Danilo.

                      Vlachos and Alexis Raikos, Other than the obvious "Vlachos", the Slavic name Rajko is a variant of Radko / Ratko, as the name Vlajko is a variant of Vladko / Vlatko.

                      Manolis Pribos. The surname "Pribos" is the Slavic diminutive Pribo of a compound Slavic names in Pribo- / Pribi– (cf. Pribina, Pribislav, Priboj / Pribojević).

                      Aivanis Prodanis = Ivan or Ivaniš + Prodan (ie. the well-known Croatian tennis player Goran Ivanišević)

                      Theodoris Milos = Slavic Milo or Miloš.

                      Stanimeros Toklimis. Slav. Stanimir.

                      Giovancos Tokaris. The Slavic name Jovanko is a form of Jovan "John" (cf. the female Jovana > Jοvanka).


                      Village Mavreli/Maureli

                      Tsoukaras Moumcelas. It is probably the Slavic name Momčilo ("Momotzilas").

                      Giovanis = Jovan.

                      Widow [of] Boza. Behind the name "Boza" is probably the name Božo (a diminutive of name like Božidar).

                      Gionis Zourkos. Behind the name "Gionis" might be the name "Jon" (Jonoski is common surname in Macedonia). "Zourkos" = Zourka/Zhourka is a Vlach surname.

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                        "Most of the so-called Greeks of that region (Thrace) was in fact Gagauz."
                        More on the indigenous population of Thrace.

                        1) Battle of Lebounion, April 29, 1091 - Emperor Alexios I Comnenos ordered his general Nikephoros Melissenos to recruit Vlachs for the imperial troops. Melissenos went to Ainos (Enez, at the mouth of Maritsa river), which suggests that the native Vlachs in question lived in southern Thrace.

                        2) June 5, 1205 - Letter written by the Latin emperor of Constantinople Henry I of Hainaut addressed to Pope Innocent III. In that letter, Adrianople is described as surrounded by mountains inhabited by Blachi: civitas est Grecie munitissima, et montibus tantum interpositis Blachorum affinis populis.

                        3) According to Basil II's chrysobull for the archbishopric of Ohrid (1019), in the early 11th century the Vlachs lived across the entirety of Samuel's former empire.

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                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          Introduction, page XVII: Presence of a Gagauz population in Evros province in and around the city of Alexandroupolis and in the region of Thourion, and in Rodope province in the villages of Kallithea and Thrilorion.

                          -- Names, Religious Denominations and Ethnicity of Settlements in Western Thrace, A Supplement to "Ortsnamenkonkordanz Der Balkanhalbinsel", By F. de Jong - 1980

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13674

                            Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                            According to Basil II's chrysobull for the archbishopric of Ohrid (1019), in the early 11th century the Vlachs lived across the entirety of Samuel's former empire.
                            I assume you got this from Madgearu's The Asanids (p. 58). Here is the actual text he is referring to (which he doesn't cite in his book), it is from the second of three charters (sigillia) that were supposedly issued by Basil II.
                            Whatever other towns were omitted in the charters of our Majesty, these shall be possessed by the same Archbishop and he shall collect fees from them all as well as from the Vlachs throughout Bulgaria and from the Turks around the Vardar.....
                            In relation to the above, read this excerpt and footnote from Stephenson's The Legend of Basil the Bulgar-Slayer (p. 46).
                            Thus, Basil famously issued a series of three sigillia after c. 1020, which outlined how the ecclesiastical structure of the province was to be reorganized, based on the archbishopric at Ohrid.


                            f.n. These three sigillia have only been preserved appended to a later chrysobull, apparently issued in 1272, and then only in one of four manuscripts containing the chrysobull (Cod. Sinait. 508 [976], 17th century). Two further manuscripts contain only a part of the first sigillon, and a third, a Slavonic translation of the chrysobull, nothing. The authenticity of Basil's arrangements have been questioned by two scholars: S. Antoljak, "Dali se avtentički onie tri ispravi na tsarot Vasilij II izdadeni vo korist na Ohridskata arhieskopija," in his Srednovekovna Makedonija, 3 vols. (Skopje, 1985), I, 69-108; E Konstantinou Tegiou-Stergiadou, Ta schetika tin Arhiepiskopi Achridas sigillia tou Vasileou II (Thessaloniki, 1988).
                            That should provide the context that Madgearu omitted in his passing reference. The chrysobull was apparently issued during the existence of the Vlach-Bulgarian Empire, about 250 years after the death of Basil II. The charter that mentions the Vlachs exists as an attachment to the chrysobull in only one manuscript from the 17th century. There is no mention of Vlachs in the other manuscripts documenting the same chrysobull. Not exactly clear-cut. It is little wonder why, as highlighted above, the authenticity of the content in the charters has been questioned by both Macedonian and Greek scholars.

                            Carlin, are you aware of anybody from the Roman Empire who mentioned the Vlachs prior to John Scylitzes?
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              I assume you got this from Madgearu's The Asanids (p. 58). Here is the actual text he is referring to (which he doesn't cite in his book), it is from the second of three charters (sigillia) that were supposedly issued by Basil II.

                              In relation to the above, read this excerpt and footnote from Stephenson's The Legend of Basil the Bulgar-Slayer (p. 46).

                              That should provide the context that Madgearu omitted in his passing reference. The chrysobull was apparently issued during the existence of the Vlach-Bulgarian Empire, about 250 years after the death of Basil II. The charter that mentions the Vlachs exists as an attachment to the chrysobull in only one manuscript from the 17th century. There is no mention of Vlachs in the other manuscripts documenting the same chrysobull. Not exactly clear-cut. It is little wonder why, as highlighted above, the authenticity of the content in the charters has been questioned by both Macedonian and Greek scholars.

                              Carlin, are you aware of anybody from the Roman Empire who mentioned the Vlachs prior to John Scylitzes?
                              Correct SoM. It's from Madgearu's book.

                              I don't think there are references to "Vlachs" prior to Scylitzes. But there is a mention of Vlachs (vlahorinhini in the VIII century) in a story concerning a monastery on Athos, however, the monastery manuscript originates from much later, and not from VIII century.

                              Regardless of that (or their origins) the Vlachs lived in rather substantial numbers in various areas of Thrace (Ainos/Enez, Adrianople region, Bizye/Vize area). By the 19th century, most of them were probably "Greeks".

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13674

                                Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                                I don't think there are references to "Vlachs" prior to Scylitzes. But there is a mention of Vlachs (vlahorinhini in the VIII century) in a story concerning a monastery on Athos, however, the monastery manuscript originates from much later, and not from VIII century.
                                Thanks for clarifying, I thought as much when I first read about that. So, it's an anachronistic reference to the Vlachs like those in Basil's supposed charter and the Gesta Hungarorum.
                                Regardless of that (or their origins) the Vlachs lived in rather substantial numbers in various areas of Thrace (Ainos/Enez, Adrianople region, Bizye/Vize area).
                                No doubt that Vlachs were present in Thrace. The real question is when. Coincidentally, I have been doing some reading about Vlach origins over the past few days and was going to post something about it before I came across what you wrote on this thread, but wanted to respond first. I will post it shortly in the Romanian thread and would be interested in your thoughts.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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