The Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil Kanchov, who was he?

[Epirot]

Why do you consider the Shiptars as derogatory term?

So I am wondering about your explaination why you consider your own name as derogatory?

So why are you offenced by being called Shiptar?

Good question...

Indeed Albanians call themselves as 'Shqiptar'. Some argues that this term begun after XIX century but I won't expand its historical origin since it's off topic. So 'Shqiptar' is an autonym or endonym.

The intentionally corrupted form 'Shiptar' is used by Milloshevic's followers against Albanians. Such a derogatory term rooted in Serbia plans for 'Greater Serbia'. All of its propaganda was full of using such a term in order to insult publicly Albanians. During Tito's Yugoslavia Albanians were called officially (by Yugoslav peoples) 'Albanac' but never 'Shiptari'. That's why is very offending for Albanians to deform 'Shqiptar' name.

[Soldier of Macedon]

As far as I know political parties of Albanians in Macedonia asked that Albanians should not be neglected in name's issue.

Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's national name. Don't overvalue them for nothing.

It is important that Albanians of Macedonia do not stand in Greek line to vanish from earth face the name of Macedonia.

But the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia do exactly that with their continual disrespect for the Macedonian state and people.

If my people have no right to negotiate on Macedonia's name, then where the hell you get the right to negotiate Macedonia's name?

That's a matter for Macedonians to sort out, like I told you before, Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's national name.

When Greece expelled thousands of Aegean Macedonians, Albania open its doors to those refugees, gave them lands, houses, etc. Albania state during Enver Hoxha's rule condemn fascist campaigns of Greece against native people of Aegean Macedonia.

When Macedonia opened its doors to Kosovo refugees, they started a war. They never should have let them in, instead, Albania should have accepted every one of them like they apparently accepted Macedonians fleeing from the Greek civil war.

Why Macedonia do not permit Albanians to have their schools in Veles, Ohrid and Monastir?

Because they are a minority, that is why you don't have Macedonian-speaking schools all over Albania. Macedonia is not only a Macedonian majority, it is the nation-state and national home of all Macedonians across the world. Something like how Albania is for Albanians. Macedonia will never be another Kosovo 'project', Macedonians should and will decide the fate of Macedonia; get that through your head and start respecting our state the way other minorities do.

Albanians were allies of Macedonians in Krusheva's Uprising!

You've already been told about not using your Albanised 'versions' of Macedonian name for places within the Macedonian Republic, don't insult the Macedonian people in that way.

Which Albanians were allies of Macedonians in Krushevo? Those from Aldanci? What did they do? How did they help? In which way did they respond to the Macedonian call to arms against the Ottomans? I would argue that a significant amount more Albanians fought against the Macedonians as filthy bashibozok mercenaries. Do you dispute this?

Indeed Albanians call themselves as 'Shqiptar'. Some argues that this term begun after XIX century but I won't expand its historical origin since it's off topic.

From the 14th century, really? I wasn't aware of that, do you have any evidence?

During Tito's Yugoslavia Albanians were called officially (by Yugoslav peoples) 'Albanac' but never 'Shiptari'. That's why is very offending for Albanians to deform 'Shqiptar' name.

We can produce a youtube clip from Macedonian TV during the early days of Tito's Yugoslavia where the people of Macedonia are referred to as Makedonci, Shiptari, Turci i Vlasi. There was no ill-intention in the broadcast, so it looks like it was acceptable to Albanians. So was Arnauti. Did it become an insult because some people made a play on words? Is that all it took?

[Epirot]

Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's national name. Don't overvalue them for nothing.

And why they have no relevance in Macedonia's national name? If Macedonia's constitution declare itself as a state of all its citizens (despite their ethnic background) why Albanians have no relevance in that matter? I say repeatedly that Macedonia's name should not be negotiated with Greece. End of story.

But the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia do exactly that with their continual disrespect for the Macedonian state and people.

That is a matter of an opinion, not a matter of a fact. Is not a disrespect of Constitution when you claim that Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's name, is it?

When Macedonia opened its doors to Kosovo refugees, they started a war.

All of Kosova refugees went at homes of their Albanian brethren mainly in Western Macedonia. I don't know if any Albanian went in Eastern Macedonia.

Because they are a minority, that is why you don't have Macedonian-speaking schools all over Albania.

...and how the hell can we open Macedonian-speaking schools in regions that there is no Macedonian??. Should we open Macedonian-speaking schools in Vlorë, Shkodër or Gjirokastër? There are Macedonian-speaking schools in regions they make up the majority of population like in Prespa e Vogël.
I said it should be open Albanian-speaking schools in Veles, Monastir, Ohrid and not in Gevgelija, Kavadarci or Negotino.

You've already been told about not using your Albanised 'versions' of Macedonian name for places within the Macedonian Republic, don't insult the Macedonian people in that way.

It shame on you to say that I insulted Macedonian people! I never disputed their identity as being Macedonians. I never call them with derogatory terms that Macedonians are insulted across Greek and Bulgarian propaganda in internet. Furthermore, I supported with a plenty of XIX-th century documents providing a distinct Macedonian identity. See the below link when I appeared with 'Arvanit' nickname: http://www.maknews.com/forum/macedon...ne-t12823.html

We Albanians do not use suffixes like -o. For example we do not say: Gjakovo but Gjakova. It just a phonetical matter nothing more nothing less.

And why you keep using Serbianized versions of Albanian names like:

When Macedonia opened its doors to Kosovo refugees, they started a war.

Macedonians should and will decide the fate of Macedonia; get that through your head and start respecting our state the way other minorities do.

Yes but Macedonians cannot decide the fate of Macedonia if they treat Albanians with the paramilitary mentality as they did in 2001.

Which Albanians were allies of Macedonians in Krushevo? Those from Aldanci? What did they do? How did they help? In which way did they respond to the Macedonian call to arms against the Ottomans? I would argue that a significant amount more Albanians fought against the Macedonians as filthy bashibozok mercenaries. Do you dispute this?

Are you freaking kidding me?
We have already discussed about this matter. If Albanians fought against Macedonians, then please explain me why Albanians have 20 seats in Krusheva Assembly?

We can produce a youtube clip from Macedonian TV during the early days of Tito's Yugoslavia where the people of Macedonia are referred to as Makedonci, Shiptari, Turci i Vlasi. There was no ill-intention in the broadcast, so it looks like it was acceptable to Albanians.

During Tito's Yugoslavia Albanians were officially called 'Albanaci' never 'Shiptari'. 'Shiptari' became derogatory when Milloshevic rose in power.

[Soldier of Macedon]

And why they have no relevance in Macedonia's national name?

Because Macedonia is not their national homeland, Macedonia does not mean for all Albanians that which it means for all Macedonians.

That is a matter of an opinion, not a matter of a fact.

I've used the phrase myself. No, it's not an opinion, ethnic Albanian disrespect for the Macedonian state takes place daily. I told you before not to pretend being naive, you need to get out of your shell and accept the truth about what your people actually do in states they live in.

Is not a disrespect of Constitution when you claim that Albanians have no relevance in Macedonia's name, is it?

What constitution? The one which was criminally changed because terrorists from your ethnicity decided to start murdering Macedonian security forces and provoking a war? You're joking, right?

All of Kosova refugees went at homes of their Albanian brethren mainly in Western Macedonia.

The Macedonian state housed and fed them at the border before some of them began to spread into the domains of their 'brethren', the act crippled an already fragile Macedonia, and Macedonians paid the price for being generous to a largely ungrateful horde of terrorists. When Albania began turning the Kosovo refugees away, Macedonia remained open. For what, to lose the sovereignty of our state to your people? Macedonia should have locked her borders shut, and let your 'brethren' in Albania take care of your people from Kosovo.

I said it should be open Albanian-speaking schools in Veles, Monastir, Ohrid and not in Gevgelija, Kavadarci or Negotino.

Yeah...I don't think so. You people are hostile towards the Macedonian state, the Macedonian people and the Macedonian language, you have already achieved things beyond a reasonable level which you will not sustain, I wouldn't be reaching out too far. If large segments of the Macedonian community in Albania became gun-totting terrorists and extremists that think they can live above the law, I am positive that Albania would not allow them to establish Macedonian schools, even if the population of Tirana was 20% Macedonian.

I never disputed their identity as being Macedonians. I never call them with derogatory terms that Macedonians are insulted across Greek and Bulgarian propaganda in internet.

I haven't seen you do that on any public forum, but you're applying Albanised 'versions' of Macedonian names for places within the Macedonian Republic. After what your people did and tried to do to the Macedonian state in 2000-2001, you can hardly blame any Macedonian for not wanting to see Macedonian placenames 'Albanised' to Tetova, Krusheva, etc. So please oblige by referring to Macedonian placenames in the Macedonian state by their Macedonian names. You don't see me referring to Berat in Albania by its original name of Belgrad, do you?

We Albanians do not use suffixes like -o. For example we do not say: Gjakovo but Gjakova. It just a phonetical matter nothing more nothing less.

The suffixes that begin with 'ov' and 'ev' belong to Macedonian and other Slavic languages, and are not native to Albanian. All you do is change the final letter to an 'a' or 'e', otherwise, it remains an essentially Slavic suffix. I will respect Albanian (and even Albanised) placenames in Albania, don't expect the same for Kosovo, which, by the way, is not the 'Serbianised' way but the original Slavic pronounciation of the word. What is the Albanian name for the region which has a meaning in the Albanian tongue?

Furthermore, I supported with a plenty of XIX-th century documents providing a distinct Macedonian identity.

I think you will find that we have also provided plenty of information about your people, particularly in Greece. I notice you keep sticking to the XIXth century, do you not consider the Macedonians to exist prior to this time?

Yes but Macedonians cannot decide the fate of Macedonia if they treat Albanians with the paramilitary mentality as they did in 2001.

If some Albanians were treated in a certain way, it was because their people murdered innocent Macedonians and provoked a war in Macedonia. If they do the same in future, I only hope that the Macedonian security forces will have the nerve to address the situation immediately and eliminate the terrorist threat definitively. Otherwise, the ethnic Albanian minority in Macedonia can start behaving like other civilised people and grow as a minority in a country they respect, and not a country they want to segregate.

Are you freaking kidding me?

What exactly is freaking you out? Are you trying to deny the significant Albanian element in the Ottoman bashibozok mercenaries that raped the Balkans, particularly during the 19th and 20th centuries? Is this news to you?

If Albanians fought against Macedonians, then please explain me why Albanians have 20 seats in Krusheva Assembly?

Use the correct Macedonian suffix. You persistence is becoming offensive, and I hope this will be the last time I have to remind you about common courtesy. What evidence do you have of 20 Albanian seats in the Krushevo Assembly? Vasil Kanchov himself limits the number of Albanians in Krushevo to about 400, all of them Christians, do you dispute this?

During Tito's Yugoslavia Albanians were officially called 'Albanaci' never 'Shiptari'. 'Shiptari' became derogatory when Milloshevic rose in power.

Check the following clip from about 10 seconds, it's a Macedonian newsreel from the 'Peoples Republic of Macedonia' and in it reference is clearly made to 'Shiptari' without being considered derogatory.

YouTube - People's Republic of Macedonia (post-WWII newsreel)

[julie]

SoM, you have stated everything very clearly and articulated the facts, and this is something that he will not grasp. Well said bratko.

[Daskalot]

SoM, is is stated twice in the newsreel, at the end as well the last 20 seconds or so. This is strong evidence.

[Epirot]

Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon

Because Macedonia is not their national homeland

We are going again and again in circles...if Macedonia isn't their homeland this mean that they are newcomers there. Is that you want to point out?

What constitution? The one which was criminally changed because terrorists from your ethnicity decided to start murdering Macedonian security forces and provoking a war? Y

Criminally changed? Give me a break man.If this constitution was changed criminally then how do you explain that Macedonians (I mean their political representatives) agreed with this constitution, eh?

and Macedonians paid the price for being generous to a largely ungrateful horde of terrorists.

Macedonians paid nothing since international community gave many financial aids (for the refugees) but these monies were absorbed arbitrary by the government for their daily agenda.

If large segments of the Macedonian community in Albania became gun-totting terrorists and extremists that think they can live above the law,

Are you claiming something without any evidence as always? If Albanians "terrorists" and "extremists" think they are above the law, why international community never pointed out something like that. I mean i never read any report that stated: 'Albanians are trying to be above the law'. Otherwise, I've read many reports that do accuse your government of not respecting rights of Albanians.

I think you will find that we have also provided plenty of information about your people, particularly in Greece. I notice you keep sticking to the XIXth century, do you not consider the Macedonians to exist prior to this time?

I haven't seen you do that on any public forum

I said that I was for a while member of 'Maknews' and then I came here because there were more members and active threads.

If I agree with the existence of Macedonians as a distinct ethnic group, how can I deny their existence prior XIX century? I do not believe that Macedonians came in XIX century with alien ships!

Are you trying to deny the significant Albanian element in the Ottoman bashibozok mercenaries that raped the Balkans, particularly during the 19th and 20th centuries? Is this news to you?

The significant Albanian element in Ottoman mercenaries? Historical versions of all our neighbors wants to show Albanians as mercenaries or tools in hands of Turks but if you research a little more about Anti-Ottoman uprisings in Balkans you will find that always Albanians participated in all large revolts against Ottomans. "Greek" Revolution was essentially Albanian, was not?

Use the correct Macedonian suffix[/U]. You persistence is becoming offensive, and I hope this will be the last time I have to remind you about common courtesy.

My persistence is no offensive to noone because I use it as we pronounce. Let me make a short digression:

Macedonian: Крушево

The name of the town in other languages is:

Aromanian: Crushuva
Albanian: Krusheva
Turkish: Kruşova, Kuruşova
Greek: Κρούσοβως

As you see in both Aromanian, Albanian and Turkish, the city's name ends with -a, whereas in Macedonian and Greek it ends with -во and -βως respectively. So if you meet an Aromanian he will call this city as Crushuva. I don't think that his persistence of using such pronounce is offensive for anyone.

Vasil Kanchov himself limits the number of Albanians in Krushevo to about 400, all of them Christians, do you dispute this?

I cannot judge him because I have not read his account yet. I need to read all of his account and then to judge something. But being himself a Bulgarian, he might be biased...
At this time Bulgarian 'ethnographers' made many distorted evidences to suit their agenda for Great Bulgaria. Should we count Bulgarians as a credible source, shouldn't we?

[Risto the Great]

Epirot, I will ban you if you continue to refer to Macedonian place names in Macedonia with Albanian endings. This veiled disrespect on a Macedonian forum is simply another example of the Albanian agenda to negate the significance of anything that is Macedonian. The recent example of some gathering in Skopje with Albanian/USA & EU Flags (with no Macedonian flag) is yet another example.

Ethnic Albanians who have lived in Macedonia would qualify as Macedonian more than I do in some ways. Yet most of them will not care for a minute if the Macedonian identity was flushed down the EU toilet. I cannot accept them as being useful to Macedonians or Macedonia.

Your dear friend Uskana was struggling with my suggestion that ethnic Albanians living in Macedonia who could only speak Serbian as a second language should be deported. Obviously they are outsiders who do not deserve to live in Macedonia. Do you know of any people like this in Macedonia? Would you think they should actually be able to speak Macedonian rather than Serbian if they were continually surrounded by Macedonians in their day to day existence? These are really simple questions yet ethnic Albanians from Macedonia cannot be honest about them.

How do you think most ethnic Albanians migrated to Macedonia. Do you really believe they have always been there? I am positive almost all of them came during Ottoman times with the distinct advantage of changing religion and embracing Islam thereby allowing the right to hold weapons. Isn't this also obvious?

The recent Albanian immigrants to Macedonia should not be welcome if they are not interested in preserving the Macedonian identity. They should go back to Kosovo. Simple.

[Soldier of Macedon]

.......if Macedonia isn't their homeland this mean that they are newcomers there. Is that you want to point out?

No. If Macedonia is not their national homeland yet they live in Macedonia, then they are a minority. They get the same civil rights as the Macedonians and others. However, matters of national significance relating to the Macedonian identity and integrity, will remain for Macedonians to deal with. I am coming to realise that you are completely indoctrinated with the same extremist filth that your kinsmen display not only in Macedonia, but elsewhere too.

If this constitution was changed criminally then how do you explain that Macedonians (I mean their political representatives) agreed with this constitution, eh?

It is indeed a game of circles with you. Why are you asking the same questions that have already been addressed previously? Do you think it was the will of the Macedonian people and Macedonian government to change our constitution in favour of appeasing an extremist and separatist minority? Are you that naive that you cannot see how Macedonia was forced into this alteration of circumstances? It is a national disgrace, and Macedonians will not cease to persist until this injustice is rectified. Don't for a second think that the 'status quo' in Macedonia is what it should be, or will be going forward.

Macedonians paid nothing since international community gave many financial aids (for the refugees) but these monies were absorbed arbitrary by the government for their daily agenda.

Macedonians paid nothing? You clearly haven't a clue about some of the core facts on the ground, and are as ungrateful as the separatist animals we allowed into our state.

Are you claiming something without any evidence as always?

Oh please, is this what you're descending to now? Which of my statements have I not corroborated? What have I claimed as a fact without evidence? Where have I denied genuine facts which you have produced to the contrary? On the other hand, I can write a whole article on your dogding and weaving regarding the fictitious 'Illyrian' origins of your people.

If Albanians "terrorists" and "extremists" think they are above the law, why international community never pointed out something like that. I mean i never read any report that stated: 'Albanians are trying to be above the law'.

You have never seen a newspaper article from outside of Macedonia making reference to your people as extremists, separatists, etc? You have never seen one cite the true intentions of the separatists and extremists?

Otherwise, I've read many reports that do accuse your government of not respecting rights of Albanians.

You should be entitled to the same as any other minority in Macedonia. Period. What other 'rights' have been neglected? Not allowing your people to cover Tetovo and Gostivar with flags from a foreign Albanian state? What rights??

I do not believe that Macedonians came in XIX century with alien ships!

Of course not, you just believe that Macedonians, UNLIKE ANY OTHER BALKAN NATION, should allow a volatile and separatist minority to dictate on matters of national importance concerning the Macedonian identity and state.

Historical versions of all our neighbors wants to show Albanians as mercenaries or tools in hands of Turks but if you research a little more about Anti-Ottoman uprisings in Balkans you will find that always Albanians participated in all large revolts against Ottomans.

Seriously, you don't want to go there. The Albanians practically made the bashibozoks what they were. The Christian Albanians in the Morea are one thing, the Albanians of Ottoman 'Rumelia' are quite another. It has more to do with historical reality rather historical narratives.

As you see in both Aromanian, Albanian and Turkish, the city's name ends with -a, whereas in Macedonian and Greek it ends with -во and -βως respectively. So if you meet an Aromanian he will call this city as Crushuva. I don't think that his persistence of using such pronounce is offensive for anyone.

You don't see Turks like Onur referring to Macedonia as the Monastir Vilayet, do you? Refer to Macedonian placenames located within Macedonia, by their Macedonian names. Neither Risto or myself will be making this statement again, it isn't a threat, it's a fact, we consider such linguistic 'adaptations' as offensive, so I trust we will not see this behaviour from you going forward.

At this time Bulgarian 'ethnographers' made many distorted evidences to suit their agenda for Great Bulgaria. Should we count Bulgarians as a credible source, shouldn't we?

They did indeed, and the best way to verify such sources is by looking at others from before, during and after to get an accurate picture.

So, are you going to tell me more about these 20 Albanian seats at the Krushevo assembly, or should I disgregard this statement of yours also?

Why didn't Albanians complain about being called 'Shiptari' on Macedonian TV post WWII? Was Miloshevic that influental in Albanian socio-politics that he was able to dictate the name of your people, that he was able to make you ashamed of your own name, which you still use among yourselves?

[Epirot]

Epirot, I will ban you if you continue to refer to Macedonian place names in Macedonia with Albanian endings. This veiled disrespect on a Macedonian forum is simply another example of the Albanian agenda to negate the significance of anything that is Macedonian.

Risto it seems that you will ban every non-Macedonian in MTO, just because he pronounce place-names of Macedonia quite different from you. If so, then you are attempting forcibly to Macedonize their speech, are not you?

If you find that I have broke any rule of common courtesy, ban immediately me!

How do you think most ethnic Albanians migrated to Macedonia. Do you really believe they have always been there? I am positive almost all of them came during Ottoman times with the distinct advantage of changing religion and embracing Islam thereby allowing the right to hold weapons. Isn't this also obvious?

During various waves of Barbarian settlers in Macedonia, Albanians in order to save their national substance moved toward mountainous zones. All possible facts provide a strong Illyrian presence in Western Macedonia. How come that Albanians are settlers in Macedonia, while they descend mostly by Illyrians?

[Bill77]

Risto it seems that you will ban every non-Macedonian in MTO, just because he pronounce place-names of Macedonia quite different from you. If so, then you are attempting forcibly to Macedonize their speech, are not you?

Epirot you also previously said this,

Indeed Albanians call themselves as 'Shqiptar'. .................

The intentionally corrupted form 'Shiptar' is used by Milloshevic's followers against Albanians.

So you were not happy with us calling you "Shiptar" which is the way we pronounce it which is quite different from you, also which was used way before Miloshevic.

Now Can we look at your above statement also as trying to forcibly Albanianize our speech?

And did you also say something about double standard somewhere?

[makedonin]

Bill77, I thought about the same thing.

It is a good point, don't you think Epirot?

I told you, by your logic, we have to be offended when you call us Maqedon in your language, cause it is not how we call our self.

I have had that argument with other Albanians, non of them have the right answear, which disposes your claim about the derogative connotation of Shiptar having secret agenda.

Epirot, what do you think about Kaplan Resuli? Read more here

[Soldier of Macedon]

During various waves of Barbarian settlers in Macedonia, Albanians in order to save their national substance moved toward mountainous zones.

Can you show any evidence of those events taking place as you have described?

All possible facts provide a strong Illyrian presence in Western Macedonia. How come that Albanians are settlers in Macedonia, while they descend mostly by Illyrians?

Oh please! A whole thread was opened specifically for the purpose of demonstrating the Illyrian heritage of the modern Albanians, and you've produced nothing of substance. Telling yourself that you're an 'Illyrian' doesn't make it so.

[Risto the Great]

During various waves of Barbarian settlers in Macedonia, Albanians in order to save their national substance moved toward mountainous zones.

Can you sell me the Albanian national substance for cheap?

[Epirot]

Epirot, what do you think about Kaplan Resuli? Read more

First of all, he is not a historian and his thoughts on origin of Albanians are motivated by political intention against Communism. He was sentenced...so now he is attempting to revenge against them saying that everything in Communism was false. But, Kapllan Resuli is alone... i mean I did not find any foreign historian taking his position seriously.