1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian

[Carlin]

That's fine and I completely agree with you that a nation or national identity is not defined by 'blood' or descent. I also have no problem with Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs, Armenians and others having Greek ethnic consciousness and identity. I would also say there is nothing wrong with a Vlach or Albanian claiming or believing he is a direct descendant of Pericles or Alexander: it may be delusional, but not illegal or wrong.

Conflict and other problems arise when modern Greeks (themselves of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic descent) and Greece as a State deny this same right of self-identification to their neighbors.

[Voltron]

Carlin, I think you missed something. The lord prayer is just an example of Tsakonia dialect as it is in other languages. Here is one in Old Church Slavonic. You can maybe verify if its correct or not since I dont know anything about it. -> http://198.62.75.1/www1/pater/JPN-slavonic.html

Now unless Vlachs picked up Doric Greek which I find extremely unlikely since they are Latin speakers I just dont see how your conclusion makes any sense. Vlachs and Arvanites are an integral component to the modern Greek ethnos so that goes without saying. Yes, they were and are distinct ethnicities in their own right but the ones that have assimilated over the centuries (in the case of Vlachs it goes much further back) are now Greek. There is also supporting evidence that Vlachs may in fact be Latinised Greeks from the Roman era so in that case it would go full circle. Your lyric example from the song that shows we have words to describe Vlachs and Arvanites illustrate that we are not oblivious to this fact. Our issue is when people try to deliberatly seperate them from the Greek ethnos when they themselves are perfectly fine with it. Ethnos is not defined by blood, and here in the Balkans nobody is more genetically purer than the next so its a mute point at the end of the day.

[Carlin]

No, it doesnt help. Friendly suggestion, read up on Tsakonian Greek. It might help you in drawing your own conclusions.

http://198.62.75.1/www1/pater/JPN-tsakonian.html

In general, I base my conclusions on facts and evidence. If there is new evidence uncovered, which proves or disproves a certain theory in any way, I am forced to re-evaluate my positions and beliefs. Any intellectually honest person would do that.

As far as your link goes it is interesting indeed, considering it's the Lord's prayer and nothing more than that. I do not doubt for a second that a segment of the Tsakonian people, namely the clergy, spoke Greek. I'm sure there were other individuals who knew and spoke Greek.

Nevertheless - will you consider the following facts and arguments:

The French 19th century traveler Cousinery makes mention of Vlach-speakers in the market of the city of Argos (Argolis, Peloponnese) during his travel in Morea shortly after the War of Independence, 1821. He specifically makes mention of the fact that these men and women spoke a Latinate language, similar to the Vlachs he met in Macedonia. These Vlachs told him that they were pastoral nomads with settlements in the surrounding mountains. Knowing where Argos is geographically located the evidence points to following directions: Arcadia, and to the south of Argos: precisely where Tsakonians lived.

[Cousinery H.E.M., _Voyage dans de la Macédoine_, Book I. Paris, 1831,p.18; cited in Koukoudis, A, _The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora_, Zitros Publications, Thessaloniki, 2000 (in Greek)]

There is also the unresolved issue of the widespread Slavonic-like, Vlach, Albanian, and Latin-derived toponyms all over Morea, a subject of tempting speculation... Tsakonia is full of such toponyms.

[Swkrath N. Liakou: Ermhneia Ebdomhnta Sklabhnikwn Topwnumiwn ths Arkadias (me tis Latinikh Keltikh Arbanitikh Armanikh), Mikroeurwpaikes (Balkanikes) Meletes 13, Qessalonikh, Iounios, 1981]

Does that help?

PS: Last but not least, let us not forget the Moraitiko traditional song:
"Mia Vlacha Vlachopoula, Arvanitopoula..."

[Voltron]

No, it doesnt help. Friendly suggestion, read up on Tsakonian Greek. It might help you in drawing your own conclusions.

http://198.62.75.1/www1/pater/JPN-tsakonian.html

[Carlin]

Carlin, is there a source and citation for the above?

Constantine Porphyrogenitus, De Admin. Imperio; located in section 15 De Peloponnesi thematis Sclavis:

Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs but from the older Romans, who up to the present time are termed "Hellenes" by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation.


The funny thing is that modern Greek propaganda actually uses this passage as a proof that Maniots are of ancient Hellenic stock, even though it states something totally different.

Constantine quite clearly states that inhabitants of Maina are Romans by race, not Slavs. Furthermore, the local people referred to them as "Hellenes" on account of their (pagan) religion, not ethnicity. They 'ceased' being Hellenes once they were baptized and became Christians.

The Bulgarian translation of De Admin. Imperio has a footnote in the text stating that Maina was established around the time of Emperor Justinian. In other words, it was established in late 5th/early 6th century. I don't have a copy of the text though.

There are also texts which I'm in the process of verifying as being legit, and not recent forgeries. They are documents written in Greek, from early 20th century around the time of World War I. In it it explains in some detail the ethnic composition of Peloponnese in the mid 19th century. It says that Peloponnese was largely inhabited by Vlachs and Albanians, with Vlachs being in majority. It also specifically states that both Maniots and Tsakonians are themselves Vlachs.

Hope that helps.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Maina itself was established by Justinian and settled by Roman colonists ('Vlachs').

Carlin, is there a source and citation for the above?

[Carlin]

Interesting sources, thanks Epirot. I think the people of Mani are probably one of the few native Greek-speaking groups to have survived throughout the Roman and Ottoman periods.

Both Maniotes and Tsakonians are actually of Vlach origin; they may have mixed with Slavs and Albanians. They were hellenized only after the 1820s and creation of Greece. Maina itself was established by Justinian and settled by Roman colonists ('Vlachs'). The "Spartan descent" of Maniotes or Tsakonians was a late invention of Greek propaganda.

At the turn of the 19th century Romaic or Greek speakers were a 'social class' of educated Orthodox Christians. Greek was the 'official' and only language of Orthodox Church and literacy. In general, educated and literate people knew (or acquired the knowledge of) Greek, whether they were merchants, priests, translators/dragomans, etc.

[arqe88]

i thought the figure was higher more to the 4million mark.

could be, but i really doubt it, the rest of the Greek population are hellish mix, around 50% have lost their roots. My uncle was in Thessaloníki last summer, and he said that the majority looked like turks and gypsis, they were rude, arrogant, yelling, the car drivers showed little respect for people crossing the roads.

[George S.]

i thought the figure was higher more to the 4million mark.

[arqe88]

in greece there are 3,5 million arvanites, and 900k albanian immigrants

[Onur]

I have this one in my bookmarks;

“Turkish & Grecian”

by Thomas Nast

January 15, 1881



This Harper’s Weekly cartoon by Thomas Nast reflects American reticence to arbitrate a border dispute between two longstanding enemies, Greece and Turkey.

In 1829, Greece won its independence from the Ottoman Empire of Turkey and its satellite territories. In the 1840s and 1850s, the Greek “Great Idea” developed of restoring a Christian Orthodox Byzantine Empire, with its capital once again in Constantinople, Turkey’s capital. Following Turkey’s defeat in the Russo-Turkish War, the Berlin Treaty of 1878 awarded the province of Thessaly and part of Epirus from Turkey to Greece.

In this Harper’s Weekly cartoon, artist Thomas Nast notes Britain’s request for American intervention as a neutral arbiter in the Greek-Turkish border controversy. The cartoonist places blame for the situation, which, in his opinion, pitted equal claimants to the land, on British meddling in the region. The implication of the cartoon is that the United States would be wise not to become involved in the entangling affair; advice heeded by the incoming administration of President James Garfield. Later in 1881, mediation of Europe’s Great Powers resulted in Turkey ceding the Ionian Islands to Greece.

http://www.harpweek.com/09cartoon/Br...anuary&Date=15

[julie]

Thanks for those posts Epirot

[Epirot]

The European concert



The story of Greece is indeed funny, isn't? One does not even know whether to call it tragic or comic?! An Orthodox Albanian quarreling with a Muslim Albanian. This is the plain truth, whether you like or not. This the true story of the so called Greek Revolution, which had nothing Hellenic. In the background, Great Powers were enjoying the bloody fight and at the same time, they were ready to re-name the involved parts in the war. The Orthodox Albanian hence now would be called a genuine Greek (presumably descended from old Greeks), while Muslim Albanian would be called a fierce Turk who came from the midst of Asia.

[Epirot]

Greece has long been a reservoir of fugitives from nations differing in habits, language, religion, and blood. The Albanian from the marshes of Dacia; the Italian, planted during the western invasion under the Venetians; the Norman ; the dispersed families of Constantinople and Asia Minor ; with, in the midst of her mountains, a precious and scarcely mingled remnant of the ancient blood of Hellas; yet all those characters have rapidly given way, and hecn moulded into one by the power of position.

Blackwood's magazine, Volume 20

Wait a second here...I thought Greece has been always a reservoir of a pure Greek race whose lineal continuity can be traced back to the Bronze age

[Epirot]

Interesting sources, thanks Epirot. I think the people of Mani are probably one of the few native Greek-speaking groups to have survived throughout the Roman and Ottoman periods.

In principle, I agree that a section of ancient Greeks may have survived at a certain scale, but this needs to be further elaborated. I have no problem to accept that some Spartan tribes could escape from assimilation due to the remote terrain of Peloponnese. But neo-Greeks as far as I know never pay attention to them. Instead they stubbornly claimed unbroken continuity to some groups, who had not a single tie with ancient Hellenes (for instance, 'Asiatic' greek-speakings). Now this open a new question: if Maniotes are descended from ancient Spartans, then why this has been denied for Albanians, Macedonians and even Turks to be consider as descendants of Illyrians, Macedonians and Anatolians, respectively?

Secondly, if Maniotes are really Spartan's remains, then why they are so similar with Albanians?
If Maniotes are really Greeks, then why their descendants in southern Italy call themselves as Albanians? I am referring to the inhabitants of "Piana degli Albanesi", which was found by Albanian emigrants who got expelled from Koron in the Mani region.

There exists some evidences that Albanian Himariotes are nothing else but descendants of Maniotes. It would be unnecessary to bring dozens of facts about Albanian identity of Himariotes. Their case perhaps cast some light about the ethnic affiliation of Maniotes!