1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian

[Big Chukalo]

I dont see why taxpayers have to foot the burden for a job their parents and family should do. It is not the governments responsibility to teach these people their heritage.

You're confusing indigenous people with immigrants. This is the 21st century vre

[Voltron]

You make a good little fascist, your Führer would have been proud of you.

I dont see why taxpayers have to foot the burden for a job their parents and family should do. It is not the governments responsibility to teach these people their heritage.

All of those Vlachs know that they are a group with origins distinct from others in Greece, despite their deluded perception on ethnicity.

Deluded perception ? We have to treat people the way we want to be treated SOM. Its a 2 way street.

How much do you think they were at the beginning of the 19th century, on the territory that originally came to form the Greek kingdom?

Not more than 15 to 20 percent.

You question if they were forced. Did they at any point have a choice after independence was achieved? They fought in a religious war of Christians against Muslims alongside Greeks in the 1820's. They earned their keep and felt that they are the progenitors of the new nation alongside the Greeks. However, they weren't self-loathing peoples fighting for the creation of a 'Hellenic' state where their ethnicities, languages and cultures would be disregarded. Many of them were bound to want education in their own languages given their extensive use across the region, not just in private but also unofficially in politics, the military, etc.

The modern Greek nation is a mirror copy of how the modern Turkish nation was born. The Lausanne Treaty pretty much solidified both countries as "homogenos" (and no this does not mean genetic purity).
Looking back in how these events transpired in the past you have to take all this into consideration.

Without a whimper? You're being naive. You need to start using the search function on this forum a bit more frequently. Start with the first page of this thread and the desire of Greeks to suppress the use of Albanian almost 100 years after independence was established

And the people we suppress happen to be todays most fervent nationalists. Tell an Arvanite today about his Albanian origins see what you get in response. If we are so talented in brainwashing people they should send a group of Greek politicians to Afghanistan, maybe we can change those people into Greeks instead of Islamofascists. Our politicians cant find their way out of a paper bag and somehow we managed to coerce minorities against their will. The only forcefull assimilation practices were ones done in Macedonia and I will give you that. But the rest is a different story.

[Carlin]

Quote:
I find it hard to beleive we can successfully assimilate 3 ethnic groups forcibly without so much as a whimper.

Without a whimper? You're being naive. You need to start using the search function on this forum a bit more frequently. Start with the first page of this thread and the desire of Greeks to suppress the use of Albanian almost 100 years after independence was established.


After everything I have read over the last few years, I am 99.9% convinced that modern Greeks are mostly of Vlach, and to a lesser degree Albanian and Slav descent. Other elements can't be discounted as well, such as Armenians or Turks (after all, what were Turkish-speaking Orthodox Christians, if not simply 'Turks'?), which lived all over Asia Minor, Cyprus, Crete, and the Balkans.

Although the previous statement seems 'extremist' I say it out of respect towards Voltron and Greeks as a whole. It is based on facts and evidence, not speculation. I mean, there is not much counter argument to the fact that I am reading a document, with my own eyes, where it says that even as late as 1850's the Peloponnese was inhabited by Vlachs and Albanians. (Where were the ethnic Hellenes? Or were/did Vlachs and Albanians become 'ethnic Hellenes' themselves?)

As Thalia Dragonas (secretary general of the Greek Ministry of Education) wrote in her book "What is our country?": the Greek national identity did not exist before the 19th century. It was created from outside in an era of intense nationalism, colonialism and expansionist imperialism.

"Ethnic identity" is a matter of ideology anyway and is based on "faith" more than anything else (it's like a modern day religion). The process of "assimilation" would be better termed "creation" or "invention" as all nations are modern and constructed. The role of the printing press and language is also quite significant and is at the root of Nationalism in general (read Anderson and Geary on this topic... see passages below as en example).

Nations were created by small elites at a time when most ordinary people did not care... Invention nations, along with spurious myths to anchor them them, was a popular recreation among educated Europeans in the 19th century. Greece was no different.

A useful link I would recommend is:

http://www.nationalismproject.org/what.htm

Recommended books (which I have read, or partially read..) are:
- Eric Hobsbawm: "Nations and Nationalism Since 1780", "The Invention of Tradition".
- Benedict Anderson: "Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism".
- Shlomo Sand: "The Invention of the Jewish People".
- Patrick J. Geary: "The Myth of Nations: The Medieval Origins of Europe" http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7124.html


PS:
Patrick J. Geary -

"Across Europe, the pernicious effects of the philological method of identifying people by language were myriad. First, the infinite gradations of broad linguistic groups in Europe were chopped up by scientific rules into separate languages. Since the spoken and written realities never corresponded exactly to these artificial rules, "official" forms - usually systematized versions of a local dialect, often of a politically powerful group or important city - were invented and imposed through state-sponsored educational systems."

"...virtual invention of languages, including not only such obvious cases as Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Slovine, Latvian, Hebrew, Norwegian, Irish, Dutch, and Romanian, but, in more subtle ways German and Italian as well."

"Even in a country such as France...probably not much more than 50 percent of French men and women spoke French as their native language in 1900. Others spoke a variety of Romance languages and dialects, while in Britanny, Alsace and Lorraine, Celtic and Germanic languages predominated."

[Soldier of Macedon]

...........even if we had the resources I wouldnt want minority languages being taught in the first place.

You make a good little fascist, your Führer would have been proud of you.

Im not making a claim on their behalf, they are for themselves.

http://www.farsarotul.org/NL31_6.htm

All of those Vlachs know that they are a group with origins distinct from others in Greece, despite their deluded perception on ethnicity.

They were only heavily populated in certain areas, not across the whole country.

How much do you think they were at the beginning of the 19th century, on the territory that originally came to form the Greek kingdom?

I also disagree they were forcred into anything.

You question if they were forced. Did they at any point have a choice after independence was achieved? They fought in a religious war of Christians against Muslims alongside Greeks in the 1820's. They earned their keep and felt that they are the progenitors of the new nation alongside the Greeks. However, they weren't self-loathing peoples fighting for the creation of a 'Hellenic' state where their ethnicities, languages and cultures would be disregarded. Many of them were bound to want education in their own languages given their extensive use across the region, not just in private but also unofficially in politics, the military, etc.

I find it hard to beleive we can successfully assimilate 3 ethnic groups forcibly without so much as a whimper.

Without a whimper? You're being naive. You need to start using the search function on this forum a bit more frequently. Start with the first page of this thread and the desire of Greeks to suppress the use of Albanian almost 100 years after independence was established.

[George S.]

Voltron you are either in denial or you have been so insular that you don't know what really went on.The govt does what it likes(greece) it doesn't give too hoots about human rights etc.It will force anyone to comply eg not to speak macedonian,by beatings ,jailings,expulsion etc.We have got heaps of cases of cases where that's happened. forcible Expulsion of populations,denationalization of populations.I don't know if you know about the 1925 abcedar where greece promised to teach the population macedonian & reneged.Forced assimilation of macedonians by change of names & forced to go to greek schools.
Attrocities & genocide on the population,Burning of 100,000 of houses of macedonian people.Occupation by the military etc stc.If you read stuff not supplied by your govt you will see what's going on.
What do you expect when people are oppressed & are sujugated.Today it looks odd to you that people dom't speak out.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

What resources are they lacking that any other normal country out there has to ensure their minorities are provided (at least partial) education in their ancestral languages?

You misunderstood me, even if we had the resources I wouldnt want minority languages being taught in the first place. I dont feel that should be ensured by any country, unless those minorities do not have a country to go to. I was commenting that even though we should protect our own dialects we dont. Salme resources that are lacking all across this country from infrastructure to services.

Wiki isn't a source. Please provide something credible if you are going to make a claim for the Vlachs on behalf of Greece.

No, but its a reference. Im not making a claim on their behalf, they are for themselves.

http://www.farsarotul.org/NL31_6.htm

They are a significant element, even if only a few of them identify as Albanians/Arvanites these days. And irrespective of what your state has forced them to consider themselves, we all know what they were originally and why they aren't that any longer. The ancestors of these people didn't naturally evolve into Greeks, most were 'coerced' to become Greeks. Just like the Vlachs, Macedonians and others.

I doubt they are anymore than 15 percent of the total population. In terms of our history yes they are significant. In terms of numbers not so much. They were only heavily populated in certain areas, not across the whole country. I also disagree they were forcred into anything. I find it hard to beleive we can successfully assimilate 3 ethnic groups forcibly without so much as a whimper.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes it does, it says that it is due to negligence and lack of resources than anything else.

What resources are they lacking that any other normal country out there has to ensure their minorities are provided (at least partial) education in their ancestral languages?

Wiki and other online info and references

Wiki isn't a source. Please provide something credible if you are going to make a claim for the Vlachs on behalf of Greece.

Not an if, we all have a Slavic element. No use in denying it.

I don't deny it, I was only providing context at the beginning of the question.

We also both have Vlach elements.

The Vlach element in Macedonians is a minor spec compared to that in Greeks. You can't even compare the two.

The Arvanites are more related to Greece than Macedonia as the Arbaresh are for Italy. But they are a small number to make a real impact in the overall population. Nonetheless we consider them Greeks as they themselves do.

They are a significant element, even if only a few of them identify as Albanians/Arvanites these days. And irrespective of what your state has forced them to consider themselves, we all know what they were originally and why they aren't that any longer. The ancestors of these people didn't naturally evolve into Greeks, most were 'coerced' to become Greeks. Just like the Vlachs, Macedonians and others.

[George S.]

good that you are admitting your slavic roots.you saying that greece has been negligent but doesn't go far enough in it's past dealings with the macedonians i woulsd say it's more than mere negligence its more like wilfull & you can add attrocities & genocide on the people anything else is unacceptable.Just remember just as you are greek & you are slav as well.(greek questionable)
We are macedonians without the slav prefix.
Voltron you mention before how you suffered under the turks we suffered even more under the greeks why not admit it why deny what your
stupid govt did??

[Voltron]

Certainly says something about the policies of your successive governments over the last 200 years.

Yes it does, it says that it is due to negligence and lack of resources than anything else.

Based on what?

Wiki and other online info and references

If Macedonians have a Slavic element, then that is at best akin to only one of the Slavic, Albanian and Vlach elements in Greeks.

Not an if, we all have a Slavic element. No use in denying it. We also both have Vlach elements. The Arvanites are more related to Greece than Macedonia as the Arbaresh are for Italy. But they are a small number to make a real impact in the overall population. Nonetheless we consider them Greeks as they themselves do.

[Valmir]

Greece embrace your Shiptari heritage

Everyone who is Shqipetar is PROUD!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Linguists do agree that the dialect is Doric based.

It may just be a simplified form of Koine, albeit with some possible Doric and other influences.

Its a shame we cant keep this dialect alive. We receive criticism of not supporting other minorites languages and we cant even support our own.

Certainly says something about the policies of your successive governments over the last 200 years.

There has been studies conducted by anthrolopogists that support a Hellenic descent for some of these Vlach groups.

Based on what?

The same way a Berzite or Draguvite becomes a Macedonian.

If Macedonians have a Slavic element, then that is at best akin to only one of the Slavic, Albanian and Vlach elements in Greeks.

[Voltron]

That's fine and I completely agree with you that a nation or national identity is not defined by 'blood' or descent. I also have no problem with Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs, Armenians and others having Greek ethnic consciousness and identity. I would also say there is nothing wrong with a Vlach or Albanian claiming or believing he is a direct descendant of Pericles or Alexander: it may be delusional, but not illegal or wrong.

Conflict and other problems arise when modern Greeks (themselves of Vlach, Albanian and Slavic descent) and Greece as a State deny this same right of self-identification to their neighbors.

Carlin this problem is fairly new in the grand scheme of things. In the early century most people did not take notice. There was an Abecdar alphabet ? Dont know remember the details. Also Makedonika or SlavoMakedonika was widely used and the notion of a "Skopian" was non existant. This is all political nowadays and many events has transpired until today which does complicate things. Its a different subject altogether.

[Voltron]

Voltron, can you please explain what exactly is 'Doric' about the Tsakonian dialect?

Im not a Tsakonian speaker and after reading some of the examples in Tsakonian I must admit it is not easy. I do recognize archaic words still retained in their dialect that is no longer in use in modern Greek. Words for water and sheep for example. Linguists do agree that the dialect is Doric based. Its a shame we cant keep this dialect alive. We receive criticism of not supporting other minorites languages and we cant even support our own.

http://www.reference.com/browse/Rafte

"Compare the Northern and Southern word for water, ύο (io, derived from Ancient Greek ὓδωρ) to Propontic νερέ and Standard νερό (nere, nero). "

What supporting evidence? The contemporary evidence that I have seen appears to indicate that many Greek regions were depopulated then repopulation by Roman colonists (among other).

Vlachs is a blanket term for Latin speaking peoples in the Balkans.
There has been studies conducted by anthrolopogists that support a Hellenic descent for some of these Vlach groups. Il try to get more on that although Im sure you heard it before.

Can you run us through the process of how Albanians and Vlachs became ethnic Greeks? What happened? When did it happen? Why did it happen?

The same way a Berzite or Draguvite becomes a Macedonian.

[Carlin]

In the book "Political Science Quarterly" edited by the Faculty of Political Science of Columbia University, Twenty-third volume, published in 1908 on page 307 we read:

"...They themselves knew the differences in their origins and in such traditions as they had; some were Slavs, some Vlachs and some Albanians..."

Macedonia and Greece, John Shea, 1997 pp.77-96:

1. "Slavs were not the only groups to move into the southern part of the Balkan peninsula. Many Albanians came in also. Albanians settled in Athens, Corinth, Mani, Thessaly and even in the Aegean islands."
2. "The Vlachs seem to have left Dacia as part of a wave of migration that spread throughout the Balkans from Greece, where they are known as Kutzo Vlachs, Tzintzars, or Aromani, through Bulgaria and Yugoslavia to the Trieste region. Many of them are still in these areas today. They all speak varieties of Romanian, but represent the remnants of originally Dacian-, Illyrian-, Thracian- and even Scythian- speaking tribes. Vlachs settled in Thessaly, Roumeli, the Ionian islands and the Aegean islands."

[Soldier of Macedon]

Now unless Vlachs picked up Doric Greek which I find extremely unlikely since they are Latin speakers I just dont see how your conclusion makes any sense.

Voltron, can you please explain what exactly is 'Doric' about the Tsakonian dialect?

There is also supporting evidence that Vlachs may in fact be Latinised Greeks from the Roman era so in that case it would go full circle.

What supporting evidence? The contemporary evidence that I have seen appears to indicate that many Greek regions were depopulated then repopulation by Roman colonists (among other).

Our issue is when people try to deliberatly seperate them from the Greek ethnos when they themselves are perfectly fine with it.

Can you run us through the process of how Albanians and Vlachs became ethnic Greeks? What happened? When did it happen? Why did it happen?