Albanians in Greece

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

It's another thing that Greece did with a lot of success: they indoctrinated Arvanites to felt nothing for the Albanians. Since that time, Arvanites looked with a lot of disdain upon Albanians: they viewed us as 'Turko-Albanians'.

Because you were Turk Alvanos. Full Stop. There is no doubt that the Albanians were the henchmens of the Ottoman empire in the Balkans.
The ones that were were sell outs and as far as Im concerned they have every right to view you this way. Even Scanderbeg would spit on them.

Next time your in Greece, why dont you inform your Arvanite brothers of how you feel and the oppression they suffer. Hope your insured.

[George S.]

sir george rights of secession,??you have no idea about rights when you look at greeks who forbade people to even speak macedonian & you tal;k on the same level as if we are affecting albanian human rights.You look at the albanian consciousness in greece completely wiped oit because of the mentality & extent the govt will go.Look at poor macedonia is virtually given everything away to them at the expense of sovereignity.

[George S.]

Epirot i agree about indoctrination by the greeks.What if the albanians in greece start revolting & join up with the rest of the albanians then they will wonder,Once they wake up & realise that the whole thing is a sham & just propping up the last vestitude of greece.But then they must be zonked out on the ouso to think greek all the time.

[Onur]

It's another thing that Greece did with a lot of success: they indoctrinated Arvanites to felt nothing for the Albanians. Since that time, Arvanites looked with a lot of disdain upon Albanians: they viewed us as 'Turko-Albanians'.

Thanks Epirot, and you got a valuable document here too.

I know that mate. This is unfortunately a typical Balkan behaviour and a cliche. After Ottoman regime ended, they transformed the term Turk into a bad label to brand people they dislike or demonize some group in the eyes of a particular people. The Slovak guy in the forum said that the Serbs in northern Serbia looks like Germans and they dislike their southern kinsmen and calls them as "Turks"!! Then you know, Bosnian Serbs calls Bosnian muslims as Turks and so on. It`s ridicules!

Btw, Bulgarians did same for the christian Gagauz Turks in there. They branded them as Turks first, because of their Turkish mothertongue and then they became hesitant to speak Turkish laters, they kept their identity in Bulgaria as secret. My brother`s Bulgarian Turkish wife told me that Gagauzs remains hidden in Bulgaria. She told me that when she was walking in the streets of Sofia or sitting in a cafe, sometimes a Gagauz comes by them to ask something cuz she hears that they speak in Turkish. She said that they usually speak Turkish by whispering in low voice even when they are in privacy and returning to Bulgarian language in public. It creates some kind of psychological pressure upon them, it`s already that`s why they do that, demonizing their true identity, language etc., so they prefer to be assimilated among them by their own will after some time.

After the collapse of Communist regime in Albania and constant weakening of the state, Greece could extend in a great proportion its services and by doing so, to put under its control some important political figures. Then, Greece ruin the independence of Albanian Orthodox Church. This enable her to greacize a lot of Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs.

I think i already told you that b4 but you are actually lucky that Italy was on your side in post WW-1 Paris peace conference. Greeks was doing immense propaganda at that time and Venizelos was aiming to get Albania up to Tirana after they seized Thrace, calling it as "northern Epirus, ancient hellenic territory". British supported that but Italy defied them. So, Albania was inch close to be destroyed in 1920 after being formed in 1913.

We all can guess what would happen shortly afterwards; hellenizing the christian Albanians and rape/kill/dump the rest of muslims to the Turkey!!!, Voila, 5000 year old pure Greek Epirus, just like Aegean Macedonia.

You're right. The sandjak of Albania, according to Ottoman records, encompassed most of modern Albania as far as Ambracia with an evident Albanian majority. This is also accepted by Turkish historians.

This is actually not an issue of acceptance or denial by the historians. It`s fact, mate. In the documents, written in 1420, it was Albania and it remained so for the next ~500 years.

It would be a mistake to minimize the Albanian problem only in Chameria. It's evidently larger than that. What about thousands of Christian Albanian natives scattered all over Greece (Attica, Eubea, Thrace, etc)? If this problem would be solved correctly, then it must include all Albanians. We should not fall on Greek intrigues to abandon thousands of Christian Albanians...

Yes, that`s true but i gave emphasis to the Chams cuz it`s more recent, happened only ~60 years ago. I am sure there are many first hand victims alive today, in Albania and in Turkey.

Btw, did you see one of these videos in youtube b4?;
YouTube - ‪tsamiko ellinikos xoros - Traditional Greek dance‬‏

Rape them, kill them and expel the rest of the Chams. Then pick up their cloths, music and dances, advertise it as "tsamiko ellinikos", traditional Greek dance from antiquity!!! Thats outrageous!!!

[Epirot]

Because you were Turk Alvanos. Full Stop. There is no doubt that the Albanians were the henchmens of the Ottoman empire in the Balkans.
The ones that were were sell outs and as far as Im concerned they have every right to view you this way. Even Scanderbeg would spit on them.

Give it a break, you smartass! The question is not that Arvanites pejoratively label Albanians as 'Turk Alvanos' because in a certain historical period they were "henchmens" of the Ottoman Empire. The reason why Arvanites label Albanians as 'Turks' is because they're in a great proportion Muslims. But they counfound the term 'Muslim' with the 'Turk'. Indeed, there is no other people in Balkans to have profited so much from Ottoman mercy than your folk. You know it better than me. Why you don't use a more realistic term like 'Turk Greek' or something like that. It suit well with your historical past.

I highly recommand to you to have a reading on the following paper:



1. For the sake of argument let admit for a second that Greeks clearly formed the majority of population in Kingdom. If they were a majority then they would be main champions of their independence. How come that the best and highest officers of the Greek army were either foreign Phil-Hellenes, Albanians from all corners of Ottoman empire, cadets from Germany, etc. Why is that minor Greek presence into main institutions of the state?
2. If Greeks again were the majority, then how come that Greece owes every achievement to the strangers? Why those ‘strangers’ were in every corner of ‘Greek’ life: universities were full of Phil-Hellen professors, highest ranks of the army were full of Germans, Albanians, etc, trade was predominated by Vlachs, Albanians, etc.
3. If Greeks were a majority in Kingdom, then why James H. Skene said that they ‘do not contribute much’?
4. Let suppose that Phanariotes exercised a prominent influence in fortunes of the new emerged state…then why these ‘champions’ of Free Greece were one of the most loyal subjects to the Sultan?

Next time your in Greece, why dont you inform your Arvanite brothers of how you feel and the oppression they suffer. Hope your insured.

Why do you question their oppression, which is so evident? Is there any school, where they can learn their native language? But the reality is, whether you like or not, most of Arvanites preserve up to our days their ancestral language, even in circumstances of constant assimilation.

The Albanians are found in the north of Eubea and in other islands ; in Attica, away from Athens and the Piraeus, nearly all the people are Albanians, many of whom are completely fused with the Greeks.

^The London quarterly review: Volume 84, William Lonsdale Watkinson, John Telford, William Theophilus Davison – 1895,

There is not much difference after 80 years:

"It is not too widely known outside Greece that the majority of villages in the immediate vicinity of Athens are (or were) Albanian rather than Greek speaking. (…)In Attica and Biotia Albanian-Greeks today number perhaps 140000, and form the majority of the population of most of the villages concerned. They are, therefore, typically a rural rather than an urban people. These Albanians for a long

^ Language, ethnicity and intergroup relations, Howard Giles, Academic Press, 1977, p. 172

[Epirot]

Rape them, kill them and expel the rest of the Chams. Then pick up their cloths, music and dances, advertise it as "tsamiko ellinikos", traditional Greek dance from antiquity!!! Thats outrageous!!!

Yes I am aware of it. Aristidh Kola, a prominent Arvanite intellectual in his book "Arvanites and the origin of Greeks' notice that Neo-Byzantines (a term which he uses constantly to describe the wannabe Greeks) pick up this dance from Chameria. But they dance it so worst, as every Cham would laugh seeing Neo-Hellenes playing it.

[Voltron]

Lost my post again.

Next time Epirot. Youll have your answer.

Just be thankful to the Turks that settled you here. If it wasnt for them you would still be in the Caucaus mountains.
Your only link to antiquity in the Balkans is through us. Remember that next time you decide to post Pyrro.

[Daskalot]

Lost my post again.

Next time Epirot. Youll have your answer.

Just be thankful to the Turks that settled you here. If it wasnt for them you would still be in the Caucaus mountains.
Your only link to antiquity in the Balkans is through us. Remember that next time you decide to post Pyrro.

Why this anal fixation to Antiquity Voltron?

[George S.]

Amazing how the greeks have denied the macedonians their existence where as they themselves are everything but greek.If the world knew about it they would be a laughing stock & ridiculed.

[Voltron]

Surely your joking Daskale. Look around you. Half the Avatars here are of ppl that are dead 2000 + yrs ago not to mention symbols of antiquity. Heck, look at your own, and Im the one with the fixation ?

Im just enlightning our friend Pyrros who is spreading propaganda against Greeks and Arvanties. I would love for him to try to sell this crap to Arvanites.

[Ottoman]

Ali Pasha sounds very Albanian indeed lol.

[Voltron]

He was a Turko-Alvano ^ They would sell their own mothers to get ahead in the Ottoman Empire.

[Ottoman]

For me he is just Ottoman just like everybody else in the Ottoman Empire.

[Onur]

Here we go...

It looks like the forum`s famous duo detected new thread for derailing it.

OK, another good thread falls into abyss.

[Epirot]

Next time Epirot. Youll have your answer.

I am all ears, mate!

Just be thankful to the Turks that settled you here. If it wasnt for them you would still be in the Caucaus mountains.

You have to be kidding because Caucasian hypothesis has been dismantled a long time ago. This is why no modern historian take into consideration. It was a deluded young Greek (Nikolaos Nicocles) who invented for the first time this ludicrous hypothesis. Later on, it was Fallmerayer himself in his work who canceled such absurdity. I'm really sorry for you who waste your precious time on digging old garbage...


Albanian identities: myth and history
By Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, Bernd Jürgen Fischer

Did you noticed that the work of Nicocles was transparently motivated by politics?

Your only link to antiquity in the Balkans is through us.

Here I lost you. Can you elaborate better your point...thnx

P.S: I thought most of modern Greek historians maintained the Illyrian theory on the Albanian ethnogenesis.