Are you born or do you become Greek? TM's special reply

[Makedonetz]

Mala prespa St. Iles island right in the middle of Lake Mala prespa

Before my father left there were 500 people in the villiage ethnic macedonians....after when greece took it im interested in the #'s and who is left there if their was a census

here is a link to the villiage via google earth

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.784051,21.083622&num=1&t=h&sll=41.608635,21.745275&sspn=1.072295,2.04895&ie=UTF8&ll=40.771182,21.089973&spn=0.062922,0.110207&z=13

[Coastal]

Mala prespa St. Iles island right in the middle of Lake Mala prespa

Before my father left there were 500 people in the villiage ethnic macedonians....after when greece took it im interested in the #'s and who is left there if their was a census

here is a link to the villiage via google earth
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.784...,0.110207&z=13

I so you mean Agios Ahillios /Ahil !
I ve been there..its an amazing place! You are one of the few Macedonian Islanders then

So,...sources:

Kanchov (1900) : 60 christian Bulgarians
Kontogiannis map : existence of Patriarchate's school and church
Brancoff (1905) : 24 patriarchic Bulgarians
Ecclesiastiki Alitheia : exarchic since 1903
Chalkiopoulos 1910 : 46 "Greek orthodox terrorized" (mean.Exarchic)
Census 1913 : 92 inhabitants (46 m ,46 f)
Census 1920 : 64 inhabitants (32 m ,32 f)
Milosevic 1920 : 13 houses of christian Slavs
Census 1928 : 113 inhabitants - 88 of them Greek refugees of 1923
statisticss 1932 : 18 xenophone families,8 of them of slavic beliefs
Census 1940 : 100 inhabitants
statistics 1945 : 330 inhabitants. 130 slavic-speakers. 60 of non-greek consioussnes,60 no ethnic consiousness- 200 of Greek cons.
Simovski: little macedonian village - after the Greek civil war many migrated to Yugoslavia and Eastern Europe

Censuses after WWII:
1951: 33, 1961: 38, 1971: 39, 1981: 31, 1991: 31,
2001: 28.

The inhabitants took part in Ilinden uprising. The Turks bombarded the island with 2 canons in mid September 1903.

Regards,Coastal

[Serdarot]

Serdarot ,we can't live in 1904!! this is at least pathetic!

Melas and Karavangelis are "national heroes" as the Komidajis that are national heroes for you (and the Bulgarians).

For me,this struggle ,was not a war...it was a chain of terror -Both sides by murders (esp of priests,teachers and wealthy people) tried to terrorize the locals in order to take them by their side.
It's something noone should be proud of..but this is how national histories work,producing heroes and pride.


ps-did you ask me if i am from Florina /Lerin? No i am not coast is not the coast of Prespa

we don´t live in 1904. that is a fact

pls feed us with some information about crimes made from Macedonian Fighters over Greek population.

Not agents send by the Bulgarians and Serbs, but Macedonian Fighters.
(like Goce Delchev, Georgi Sugare, Pitu Guli, like my grandfather, his brothers, like so many unnamed local heroes, who were protecting their own families, homes, lifes...)

Have you heard about Macedonians getting on Greek Wedding, killing many people, burning babies and other children in "furni" (furnos?), raping Greek Woman, to destroy Greek Church and cemetaries?

Have you heard about Macedonian Priest to "sell" to the Turks some Greek fighters?

Have you heard Macedonians to DELETE GREEKS from the "Books of the Born" and "Books of the Dead" in RoM?

Have you heard any Macedonian to forbid to some Greek (or anyone else ) to speak his mother tongue/language in RoM? (or Egejska, when the Macedonians controled it for short period during the ww2 and the "civil" war later...)

Can you imagine someone waiting infront of your home´s window to hear you speaking your mother language, and kill / rape / torture you couse of that?

Can you imagine you are forbiden to speak? (by the self-proclaimed "root of democracy"? )

the number of the crimes and atrocities that Greeks made over the Macedonians is large, don´t want to write half an year here...

i already wrote on other topic, we don´t want or need some personal appologise, it is you, the Citizens of the "Eliniki Demokratia" who need to learn some things about our and your past, and understand / initiate some things.

you speak about winning the war, losing side... well, i´ll "torture" ya with some stories

My Grandfather died in his late 80s.

He was "selski vojvoda" / "selski kumita" (selo, selski = village, local fighter).

He fought against the Turks since he was 11-12-13 years old. In Mariovo Region, near Bitola and Lerin.

We have 2 houses in my grandfather´s village. in the yard of the one house, there are 3 trenches - bunkers, "present" from the ww1.

One of my grandfather´s brothers is mobilised (against his own will) by mobile Bulgarian Patrole.

My grandfather is saving himself from mobilising by killing 1 and injuring another Bulgarian Soldier and runing away high in the mountains with those family members who were at the moment in the house. Later he joins unit of the "local volountiers" mobilised by the "Allied" Soldiers (French and some Brits probably), and he is fighting against the Bulgarians and Austro-Ungarns, probably under Serbian flag.

They won... what he got? nothing, only further problems with the new situation and authorities...

He fought under Greek flag in the battles against the Italians in the ww2. Many of the cousins - relatives from Lerinsko and Kostursko were mobilised, and as experianced fighters, many from Mariovsko and Bitolsko-Prespanski region joined the Greek Army as volounteers (you know probably more about me on this subject )

They won, but Greece was occupied by Germans and some Bulgars, so they had to come back home from Albania...

He fought as Partizan against the incoming Bulgarian and German troops from the very first days.

No "Ohrana" or any fascist organizations, Bulgarian or any, ever prospered in Mariovo Region

They won. What he got?

The "civil" war in Greece, or the re-ocupation of Aegean Macedonia by Athens and it´s masters (west europe).

To make it clear, my grandfather fought in all those wars on the "right side", or the winner side.

He helped to defend / liberate Greece too, not only Macedonia...

And "Suddenly" they were satanized from the Greek society, and became enemies of the state and the "greekness"?

Bombed with Napalm, not only the soldiers, but the escaping unarmed people as well. Mass kills. Not in 1904, in 1947-1948. Again Exodus ond Genocide.

My father is born in 1948, when my Grandfather already was over 50, couse he lost not only his youth in all those wars, he lost children and other relatives, and as reward, he lost part of his "fields", who were sudenly "otade rid" (accros the hill), and was not aloud to visit those survived and not expelled relatives across the same hill.

My Grandmother´s brother died with 90+ years. He was my Grandfathers best friend, and most of those years they spent fighting and surviving together.

He and his family were one of the main inspirations for the famous Macedonian writter Stale Popov.

And my "story" is an average Macedonian Story from any Macedonian who has anything to do with Egejska.

To connect it with the topic, there are plenty of people who perfectly knows what was happening in the last several hundert years, and how - why - from whom was the Modern Greek State and Nation created.

Beside from my father´s, also my mother´s roots are from Egejska.

So how come some Christian Turks (or even if they are "greeks", they are from Pond, not from Macedonia) have the right to call themself Macedonians, and Athens is denying the right of the NATIVES of Macedonia to call themself Macedonians, and their Language Macedonian?

We dont live in 1904, and not in 1948, so we can speak - debate about those years and times, and about present time and issues.

We already made some progress, we don´t kill eachother, we try to debate as i notice.

Greetings

p.s.

on earlier post i wrote on Macedonian

i am from Lerinsko. do you speak "nashki" (nashki = nashe, Macedonian )

[Makedonetz]

I so you mean Agios Ahillios /Ahil !
I ve been there..its an amazing place! You are one of the few Macedonian Islanders then

So,...sources:

Kanchov (1900) : 60 christian Bulgarians
Kontogiannis map : existence of Patriarchate's school and church
Brancoff (1905) : 24 patriarchic Bulgarians
Ecclesiastiki Alitheia : exarchic since 1903
Chalkiopoulos 1910 : 46 "Greek orthodox terrorized" (mean.Exarchic)
Census 1913 : 92 inhabitants (46 m ,46 f)
Census 1920 : 64 inhabitants (32 m ,32 f)
Milosevic 1920 : 13 houses of christian Slavs
Census 1928 : 113 inhabitants - 88 of them Greek refugees of 1923
statisticss 1932 : 18 xenophone families,8 of them of slavic beliefs
Census 1940 : 100 inhabitants
statistics 1945 : 330 inhabitants. 130 slavic-speakers. 60 of non-greek consioussnes,60 no ethnic consiousness- 200 of Greek cons.
Simovski: little macedonian village - after the Greek civil war many migrated to Yugoslavia and Eastern Europe

Censuses after WWII:
1951: 33, 1961: 38, 1971: 39, 1981: 31, 1991: 31,
2001: 28.

The inhabitants took part in Ilinden uprising. The Turks bombarded the island with 2 canons in mid September 1903.

Regards,Coastal

Too bad we are denied to our villiage

[Coastal]

Serdarot i don't doubt for the suffering your ancestors went through.

I feel really sorry about it..but it is past.The same is for my ancestors.I can write also pages of stories about raids,demolishion of a house,murders,killings ...

Do you believe that Macedonians were innocent angels? That they didn't commit terrible crimes too? In 1904-1908 cooperating with the Bulgarians of Sofia,in 1941-44 serving in the Bulgarian army who took under control eastern Greek Macedonia, in 1945-49 with Tito's Yugoslavia and the Greek communists...

What would be the point then? I bet we would end up fighting once again.

[Serdarot]

pls feed us with some information about crimes made from Macedonian Fighters over Greek population.

i would like to know if something like that happened. in history forum we can be informed and / or debate about such things.

and why not talking about those times? 1948, 1904 too... The Germans appologised to the Jews, UK appologised to the Irish people

Maybe one day China will appologise to Tibet, Turkey to the Kurds, and Greece to the Macedonians...

I think it is very simple, we say - claim that the modern Greeks made Genocide and Exodus over the Macedonians.

Also to mention our problem with your problem with the name of RoM and the Macedonian History, Name, Adjective, Identity, etc...

Our claims are very serious, so sooner or later not only individuals will start to think about the things we are saying, but also the Greek State will have to react (to mention the charges - prossecutions that are already initiated and running)

I can not force you to debate with me / us on some subjects, but avoiding the problem will not solve it.

We have to learn to live together and to respect eachother, but we have time, so step by step...

Greetings

[Coastal]

i would like to know if something like that happened. in history forum we can be informed and / or debate about such things.

and why not talking about those times? 1948, 1904 too... The Germans appologised to the Jews, UK appologised to the Irish people

Maybe one day China will appologise to Tibet, Turkey to the Kurds, and Greece to the Macedonians...

I think it is very simple, we say - claim that the modern Greeks made Genocide and Exodus over the Macedonians.

Also to mention our problem with your problem with the name of RoM and the Macedonian History, Name, Adjective, Identity, etc...

Our claims are very serious, so sooner or later not only individuals will start to think about the things we are saying, but also the Greek State will have to react (to mention the charges - prossecutions that are already initiated and running)

I can not force you to debate with me / us on some subjects, but avoiding the problem will not solve it.

We have to learn to live together and to respect eachother, but we have time, so step by step...

Greetings

Serdarot ,which era do you want to discuss about?
Also ,i would discuss if there werent interruptions like "burn him"! ..or even if i cannot freely present something from the sources-or even my opinion!
I highly doubt this can happen..
I am also sure,that this can only lead to a negative stance ..so as i wouldn't be able to talk with people here for more pleasant things..like dances,folklore,personal stories or anything from both sides of Macedonia...

[Makedonetz]

Coastal what are some folklore you are familiar with? before you answer greek macedonian or macedonian greek be specific with what your saying Either makedonski ej Grcia

Slusja bratko?

Do you fall under one of these catagories?
A GRKOMAN IS..........

A Macedonian who wants to be Greek.
One who refuses to accept his true Macedonian National Origins.
One who is ashamed of his background, the language he speaks.
One who is afraid to call himself Macedonian.
A Grkoman is a person who always refuses to accept arguments that
prove without a doubt of his
Macedonian identity.
A Grkoman is a person who always refuses to learn and accept his
condition of what he is or who he
is.
A Grkoman is a person who is lazy,ignorant and has no courage. He
is also a coward.
A Grkoman is an individual who cooperates with the Greeks against
all Macedonians.
A Grkoman is a person who is suffering from self-inflicted national
amnesia.
A Grkoman is an individual who has no respect for others, himself,
or his heritage.
A Grkoman is a cancer within the Macedonian nationality, which
stubbornly works to destroy everthing
that is Macedonian.
A Grkoman is the #1 enemy to the Macedonian people.
A Grkoman is a liar because every time he utters the words, "I am
Greek", he lies and he knows it.
The Grkoman always speaks in Macedonian at home. He listens to
Greek music. He shops at Greek
stores for the usual, olives, halva and lukumia and always enjoys
the conversation with tht Greek
propriator.
The Grkoman attends the Greek church. He doesn't understand what
the priest is saying, but that's
okay, for whatever the priest is saying must be good. At funerals
the Grkoman always lements and
cries in Macedonian.
The Grkoman is a person who lies to the Canadian census when the
question, "What mother language
is spoken at home?", he writes boldly Greek ,and he knows it's a
lie.

[Soldier of Macedon]

How the hell should i know? Do you think every Greek should make a research on the subject?
I once have read somewhere that a Bulgarian guy claimed Christ was Bulgarian!
Ataturk was Macedonian?Skanderberg was Greek?
wtf ..do all these add "national pride " to someone!?!?

How the hell should you know? Ask you Greek friends on the internet who have made the statement.

Ataturk was part Macedonian, Skenderbeg was as Greek as Napoleon.

[Spartan]

And God created the Macedonoids as the first race

Comparing whos claims are stupider is just plain stupid.

As for Napolean, obviously he isnt greek, but Ive read somewhere about a connection between him and maniots as many of them migrated to Corsica, and a community exists there to this day.

[Risto the Great]

Comparing whos claims are stupider is just plain stupid.

But you must understand Spartan, the Greeks only claim to Macedonia is based on some connection supposedly to do with Alexander the Great of 2300 years ago. These "claims" are what they rely on and what they are using to strangle the Macedonians with. I agree, it is stupid in many ways. But the Greeks are still relying on little more than this in relation to Macedonia.

[Spartan]

Balkan "Claims" have truly set the region back a century or two Risto.
No argument from me there.

[Soldier of Macedon]

And God created the Macedonoids as the first race

Comparing whos claims are stupider is just plain stupid.

Isn't that what you just did, stupidly compare stupid claims?

A simple 'no' would have been sufficient from the person the question was directed to.

As for Napolean, obviously he isnt greek, but Ive read somewhere about a connection between him and maniots as many of them migrated to Corsica, and a community exists there to this day.

What connection to the people of Mani? What are you talking about? Is this another one of those 'stupid' claims?

[Spartan]

Isn't that what you just did, stupidly compare stupid claims?

Yes
I guess my point was made.

What connection to the people of Mani? What are you talking about? Is this another one of those 'stupid' claims?

They conspired together against the Ottomans.
Napoleans family was close with the Maniot community of Corsica.
The Stefanopoulos clan if im not mistaken.

[Rogi]

The expelled Maniots settled in the mid to late 1600's.

The Buonaparte family line can be clearly traced back to the Cadolingi di Borgonuovo line, from the 10th century who were lords of Fucecchio in Tuscany.

There is no connection to speak of between the settled Latliani and Stephanopoulos' clans, with the Buonaparte clan.