Journalist spreading dis-information about Macedonians

[Buktop]

You know what. I can't help myself. I like the Australian way of life. Plenty of opportunity, you work hard, you earn heaps of money, you play hard and also provide for your family's future. It is a great life. If promises were made to give Macedonia something similar thanks to Australia's influence ... off the cuff ... I would say "excellent!".

But then I would have to look what this kind of support entails. If USA and Australian citizens hated their lifestyles, they might choose to move back to Macedonia. But most hang around. It lends credence to supporting a lifestyle choice.

Very true

US Macos in the UMetoD look and smell like vassals to American foreign policy. If they are not, then it would be a an excellent (new) initiative for them to distinguish themselves from this perception.

While I don't quite see how this stigma fits UMD, I guess I would have to be on the outside looking in, in terms of my country of residence. From living in the US, what I can say is that many of you don't really understand US foreign policy (not to sound like an A**hole), but the same can be said of us Macos in the US and Canada about Australian policy. Without going into a rant about foreign policy, all I will say is looks can be deceptive.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Help me understand Reeker's US 'policy' and how it fits into the UMD's vision for Macedonia?

Thankfully, not all Macedonians in the Americas are apologists, I have noticed some of them here state that they do not agree with the UMD's vision for Macedonia. One only needs to scratch the surface of the UMD charade to reveal how compromised their actions and statements have been, and how untrustworthy they are when challenged to provide an honest elaboration on those actions and statements.

[indigen]

Buktop

Actually, you will find what I said is qualified and generally aimed at the (Bez)UMDovci.org and their foot soldiers like yourself and I have not seen Osiris slam all USA Macedonians anywhere but only Meto and his sidekicks. There are great Macedonian patriots in USA and Canada but they are not to be found amongst the (Bez)UMdovci.
You stated this

Originally Posted by indigen
Why does not the US Macedonian community become "proactive" and stop/end US pressure on Macedonia aimed at forcing Macedonian capitulation and committing of final national suicide? Where is the "great and strong Macedonian Lobby" of USA - UMDovina.org to show some results?

Clearly naming the entire US Macedonian community, warranting my response.

You can see that it was qualified and aimed at the UMDovci (and also at a certain poster who awhile ago started a thread about how the Macedonian Diaspora could become more "proactive" and ended up being directed at Aussie Maks!). :-)

I will not engage you in further nitpicking and technicalities. Enough said on this point.

Osiris stated this

Originally Posted by osiris
great post indigen you are right american macedonians had better wake up quickly to the type of slavish support for us policies towards macedonia by some us macedonian organizations like the umd who claim to represent them

Again aimed at the entire US Maco community, warranting my response.

Again qualified and aimed at supporters of UMD (and similar orgs). End of story here as well!

We are not going to get anywhere if we keep playing Aussie vs USA communities against each other. We are all Macedonians who wish the best for Macedonia, though we may differ in opinion on how to achieve our goals, they are more or less the same.

Actually, my response was a little payback to some umdovci (or supporters of) who like to play the "why does not Australia recognise Macedonia by its bla bla name" card every time someone applies some political heat on their sacred "Starbucks Gang of Four/Six/Eight".

Originally Posted by indigen
No to both silly questions! But it means morons (you know who they are!) who claim they are the greatest thing since sliced bread was invented in the Macedonian Diaspora are HYPOCRITES if they do not, and they have not done so to-date, take any action against a company based in their backyard and under US legal jurisdiction that has been implementing a very destructive anti-Macedonian agenda against ALL Macedonians.

How do you propose we go about countering Microsoft's "anti-Macedonian" agenda? Which US laws may we site that would bare any significance on a decision? Can we prove, beyond any reasonable doubt, in a court of law, that Microsoft is employing an active, anti-Macedonian policy?

Well, the way it designates the Macedonian language is clearly denigrating and demeaning and equals DISCRIMINATION, the basis on which AMHR and Macedonian Teachers Association of Victoria won their case against a similar act of the Victorian Government.

If we can, I would be glad to personally bring it to the attention of legal authorities.

You should get legal advice and use the Victorian decision as a precedent! Any action against Microsoft would get wide community support and I would like to see a broad USA Macedonian community coalition take this on.

indigen
And the USA is still putting pressure on Macedonians to commit national suicide! You need to evaluate the value and worth of your "lobbying" efforts, which, IME, amount to naught.

The USA will do what it feels is best for it. They are pushing us to change our name so that we will join NATO and commit more of our soldiers to the war effort. I don't agree with it, but that is the way the political game works. If Macedonia was to be admitted to NATO under it's constitutional name, then the US would have no stake in the name dispute and would not bother commenting on it. That's what you need to realize, they don't care what we call ourselves, only what they stand to benefit. So what do we need to do? We need to make our cause appear more beneficial to the US than Greece's.

I don't agree with you and you should know my view on the use of the "constitutional name" designation by now! Someone elese can take this up with you.

It does not matter to me what you think of our "lobbying efforts" because I know that we succeeded in achieving recognition and preventing that recognition from being reversed.

I think your and the Starbucks Gang are deluding themselves in thinking you achieved "recognition" and we are treading on old and worn-out ground here. I am NOT going over this again, though others might like to engage you and add another 100 posts to the thread. :-)

In the end, it does not matter what some US envoy or ambassador says about changing a name because we have the recognition already, the ball is in Gruevski's court. He and his administration are the only ones who I would be worried about when it comes to a name change.

I would not say that but ultimately USA/NATO/EU want Macedonians to legally sign their own death warrant - national genocide!

[osiris]

From living in the US, what I can say is that many of you don't really understand US foreign policy (not to sound like an A**hole)

thats a big call, buktop.

i think most americans dont understand their foreign policy and even when they do they tend to justify it whatever the cost to the rest of the world.

[Buktop]

Help me understand Reeker's US 'policy' and how it fits into the UMD's vision for Macedonia?

Thankfully, not all Macedonians in the Americas are apologists, I have noticed some of them here state that they do not agree with the UMD's vision for Macedonia. One only needs to scratch the surface of the UMD charade to reveal how compromised their actions and statements have been, and how untrustworthy they are when challenged to provide an honest elaboration on those actions and statements.

Reeker's policy is an extension of the Obama administration, and what they tell him to say in regards to the name dispute is an attempt to achieve our NATO accession. UMD want's us in NATO but not at the expense of our name.

You can call me whatever you like, the fact is we are at an impasse, and the thing that you need to realize is that we are not ideologically opposed, nor are we enemies, we are two Macedonians with a vision of improvement for Macedonia.

There are many paths to the top of the mountain...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Reeker's policy is an extension of the Obama administration, and what they tell him to say in regards to the name dispute is an attempt to achieve our NATO accession. UMD want's us in NATO but not at the expense of our name.

But the UMD is happy to continue promoting Reeker as their 'friend', who happens to support Ali Ahmeti's vision for Macedonia.

Does the UMD share the same vision for Macedonia as the US and Ahmeti, and, if not, has the UMD spoken against the US vision for Macedonia?

[Buktop]

You can see that it was qualified and aimed at the UMDovci (and also at a certain poster who awhile ago started a thread about how the Macedonian Diaspora could become more "proactive" and ended up being directed at Aussie Maks!). :-)

I will not engage you in further nitpicking and technicalities. Enough said on this point.



Again qualified and aimed at supporters of UMD (and similar orgs). End of story here as well!

I read it as I see it, if that is not what you and Osiris had intended then you should further clarify it.

Actually, my response was a little payback to some umdovci (or supporters of) who like to play the "why does not Australia recognise Macedonia by its bla bla name" card every time someone applies some political heat on their sacred "Starbucks Gang of Four/Six/Eight".

But you are having a discussion with me, not them. So let's focus on what is actually being said in this discussion.

Well, the way it designates the Macedonian language is clearly denigrating and demeaning and equals DISCRIMINATION, the basis on which AMHR and Macedonian Teachers Association of Victoria won their case against a similar act of the Victorian Government.

Government regulation and Corporate law are not the same, and once again, Australian law is not US law. If you were to perhaps find the relevant US law or regulation encompassing the misnaming of a language (intentionally/unintentionally) then feel free to share it, and I will consult with legal council.

You should get legal advice and use the Victorian decision as a precedent! Any action against Microsoft would get wide community support and I would like to see a broad USA Macedonian community coalition take this on.

I would love to, but Victorian decisions don't bare any weight on US internal law. I can encourage people to write letters of complaint about the naming of the language, but in terms of legal avenues, there is not much I can really do.

I don't agree with you and you should know my view on the use of the "constitutional name" designation by now! Someone elese can take this up with you.

Alright, the historical name. My mistake.

I think your and the Starbucks Gang are deluding themselves in thinking you achieved "recognition" and we are treading on old and worn-out ground here. I am NOT going over this again, though others might like to engage you and add another 100 posts to the thread. :-)

While there may be several reasons for US recognition of Macedonia, one major one was the US Macedonian community, and that is undeniable.

I would not say that but ultimately USA/NATO/EU want Macedonians to legally sign their own death warrant - national genocide!

They only want our accession, at the moment, they see name change as the easiest way to do that. They don't really care about what we call ourselves, and I think you are giving their suggestions far too much relevance.

[Buktop]

thats a big call, buktop.

i think most americans dont understand their foreign policy and even when they do they tend to justify it whatever the cost to the rest of the world.

I don't know what experiences you have had with Americans, but I am not one of the idiotic common masses that reside in the US, I have spoken with government officials and ambassadors before, and I feel pretty secure in my understanding of US foreign policy.

[Buktop]

But the UMD is happy to continue promoting Reeker as their 'friend', who happens to support Ali Ahmeti's vision for Macedonia.

Does the UMD share the same vision for Macedonia as the US and Ahmeti, and, if not, has the UMD spoken against the US vision for Macedonia?

Reeker is a pawn for the US government, the foreign policy of the US government is dependent on which administration is in power, and yes, the UMD has spoken against several US policies, especially in regards to positions on Greece and the name dispute.

[Soldier of Macedon]

UMD has spoken against several US policies

Show me where the UMD have spoken against US policies with regard to the Macedonian-Greek issues.

Show me where the UMD have spoken against US policies with regard to Macedonian-Albanian issues.

[indigen]

I read it as I see it, if that is not what you and Osiris had intended then you should further clarify it.

Already done and leave it at that!

But you are having a discussion with me, not them. So let's focus on what is actually being said in this discussion.

You replied to my original post and not I to yours.

Government regulation and Corporate law are not the same, and once again, Australian law is not US law. If you were to perhaps find the relevant US law or regulation encompassing the misnaming of a language (intentionally/unintentionally) then feel free to share it, and I will consult with legal council.

Surely there is an Anti-Discrimination Act or Law in USA? This is where, IME, you should look to take legal action against Microsoft. It is not misnaming but discrimination, denigration and defamation (?) that is at play here. Have you ever read the court report of the Victorian case?

I would love to, but Victorian decisions don't bare any weight on US internal law. I can encourage people to write letters of complaint about the naming of the language, but in terms of legal avenues, there is not much I can really do.

Sometimes precedent of law may apply even from an international case. I am not a lawyer but there are some lurking around here and perhaps they could advise?

Alright, the historical name. My mistake.

We are making progress! :-) Historical, rightful, state/drzhavno, official all are OK but "constitutional" has the bad smell of "dirty deeds done dirt cheap" agenda! Lets hope the UMD conf resolution improves on last year's wording?

[Buktop]

Show me where the UMD have spoken against US policies with regard to the Macedonian-Greek issues.

Show me where the UMD have spoken against US policies with regard to Macedonian-Albanian issues.

SoM, they have been quoted time and time again, have a search of their website if you must, but I am done quoting the same URL's.

[Buktop]

Already done and leave it at that!

done

You replied to my original post and not I to yours.

yes, which is why I expected you to focus on what I was commenting on rather than making a statement to UMD.

Surely there is an Anti-Discrimination Act or Law in USA? This is where, IME, you should look to take legal action against Microsoft. It is not misnaming but discrimination, denigration and defamation (?) that is at play here. Have you ever read the court report of the Victorian case?

There are, but a connection has to be drawn to the decision on the naming of the Macedonian language, and it also must be perceived as intentional. It may be more beneficial to organize a community letter of protest to Microsoft first and should the problem persist pursue legal action making our case a bit stronger.

I have not read the Victorian court case, but I have read of it, do you have a link?

Sometimes precedent of law may apply even from an international case. I am not a lawyer but there are some lurking around here and perhaps they could advise?

While that is true, we would have to compare the Victorian government laws concerning Discrimination and US corporate laws concerning discrimination. If anyone here has a chance, I would encourage the sending of letters of protest to Microsoft concerning the issue and save the correspondence for future reference.

We are making progress! :-) Historical, rightful, state/drzhavno, official all are OK but "constitutional" has the bad smell of "dirty deeds done dirt cheap" agenda! Lets hope the UMD conf resolution improves on last year's wording?

:P

[MakOdToronto]

But the UMD is happy to continue promoting Reeker as their 'friend', who happens to support Ali Ahmeti's vision for Macedonia.

Does the UMD share the same vision for Macedonia as the US and Ahmeti, and, if not, has the UMD spoken against the US vision for Macedonia?

Ahmeti is Gruevski's partner! Gruevski even says that regularly. Anyone in Macedonia knows Reeker is supporting Ahmeti over Menduh Thaci and the others who are trying to stir the pot. So when Ahmeti says he wants to stay in Gruevski's government and not cause another political crisis, now that's bad? SOM -- do you want Menduh back? When was the last time you were here in Skopje to know what's really going on?!

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM, they have been quoted time and time again, have a search of their website if you must, but I am done quoting the same URL's.

You've found statements of the UMD where they openly speak against US policy concerning Macedonian issues with Greece and Albania? Enlighten me Buktop, you're an UMD expert so locating this sort of information should be no problem.