Journalist spreading dis-information about Macedonians

[osiris]

do you think so buktop i hope you are right, and i am wrong, however if the umd is any indication of american macedonian thinking i dont think i am.

[Mastika]

Contrary to my instinctual sense of bravado, I am always respectful.

Here is the Gallup article:

"Nationals" is very different from "Nationalists".
Do you agree that you might have misunderstood the sentiment of this article?

I was aware of the questionable sentiment from the beggining.

The text which you copied is from the MINA website which does use the word "nationals". However the text that I copied was posted by TM here => http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1653 which uses the word "nationalists", thats where my point about who is/isn't a nationalist arose from, I should have quoted the article from the original website and not the altered version which was posted here, what I think happened is that TM copied the version on the internet at the time, however the website later edited the wording of the article. It is from this discrepancy which led to the confusion, and led to my initial claim that Macedonian nationalists specifically were polled.

[indigen]

We are proactive, you just fail to see it because you ignore the evidence and see what you want to see. I could site evidence for you if you'd like, but seeing as it relates to the activities of UMD you probably won't even care.

Are you part of UMDovina.org?

Yeah, you may be "proactive" but to what purpose? To promote the greatness of multi multi-ethnic Ramkovist Macedonia and the sending out of useless/worthless media releases that undermine Macedonian national interests?

USA/NATO and EU (and their Macedonian PROXIES, in RoM and the DIASPORA) is the source of the greatest pressure for Macedonia to change its name and NOT Australia, which will play a wait and see game on the recognition of Macedonia by its historical and rightful state name as long as there are "negotiations" in motion and a lingering prospect of name change.

Secondly, MICROSOFT, a USA based company, has been DENIGRATING Macedonia and Macedonians for over a decade in the way it designates the Macedonian language without any logical or legal basis. This clearly is a racist chauvinist attack on Macedonians world-wide and aims to cause detrimental psychological effects, especially in the younger generation, due to their preponderance of computer usage. What has the "great USA Macedonian lobby" (Umdovina.org) done that is "proactive" on this issue and what effective results can be shown?

[Buktop]

Are you part of UMDovina.org?

Yeah, you may be "proactive" but to what purpose? To promote the greatness of multi multi-ethnic Ramkovist Macedonia and the sending out of useless/worthless media releases that undermine Macedonian national interests?

USA/NATO and EU (and their Macedonian PROXIES, in RoM and the DIASPORA) is the source of the greatest pressure for Macedonia to change its name and NOT Australia, which will play a wait and see game on the recognition of Macedonia by its historical and rightful state name as long as there are "negotiations" in motion and a lingering prospect of name change.

Secondly, MICROSOFT, a USA based company, has been DENIGRATING Macedonia and Macedonians for over a decade in the way it designates the Macedonian language without any logical or legal basis. This clearly is a racist chauvinist attack on Macedonians world-wide and aims to cause detrimental psychological effects, especially in the younger generation, due to their preponderance of computer usage. What has the "great USA Macedonian lobby" (Umdovina.org) done that is "proactive" on this issue and what effective results can be shown?

So that means that all of us USA Macos are slavishly supporting anti-Macedonian policies? Because Microsoft is a US based company means it is actively promoting anti-Macedonian US foreign policy?

My comparison with Australia was to show how stupid the statement was, not to actually comment on Australia.

UMD helped motivate people to counter House resolution 521 and H Con Res 306 both of which would have reversed the US' recognition of our constitutional name.

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/47/1/

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/62/1/

Macedonians all over the US collaborated to counter these two resolutions.

[Soldier of Macedon]

UMD helped motivate people to counter House resolution 521 and H Con Res 306 both of which would have reversed the US' recognition of our constitutional name.

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/47/1/

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/62/1/

Great UMD initiative in support of Macedonia's integrity, the links you provided indicate that this took place in October/November 2005. In February 2008, the UMD sent a letter to the then U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, which begins with the following:

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/305/51/

The United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) urges you to reiterate America’s recognition of Macedonia’s constitutional name, support for Macedonia’s NATO admission, and position that the “name dispute” between Greece and Macedonia is immaterial to Macedonia’s NATO bid during your upcoming meeting with the Greek Foreign Minister on February 14, 2008.

The UMD are "urging" for support from the US, for Macedonia's entry into NATO. A month later, in March, the UMD leader makes the following statement:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=3485

We have to be realistic, Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it has to join under a modified name for those organizations ONLY.

Meto is advocating for Macedonia's entry to NATO by a name other than the official one, by a name other than the one the UMD are supporting in the links you provided. Another great UMD initiative in support of Macedonia's integrity? Scare-mongering? A sign of subservience? A submissive accetance of defeat?

[MakOdToronto]

Why does not the US Macedonian community become "proactive" and stop/end US pressure on Macedonia aimed at forcing Macedonian capitulation and committing of final national suicide? Where is the "great and strong Macedonian Lobby" of USA - UMDovina.org to show some results?


The Canadians and the Americans don't care if Macedonia is in NATO and EU -- why don't we just drop the whole idea, and then the issue will go away. America only started on the name after Greece blocked NATO. Canadian Macedonians get that. Why does Gruevski say he is fighting to get into NATO? Is it just to keep the Albanians happy? Why do Macedonians want this? They are about to sign a Friendship Treaty with Russia anyway! Drop NATO and EU and there is no issue!

[Buktop]

Great UMD initiative in support of Macedonia's integrity, the links you provided indicate that this took place in October/November 2005. In February 2008, the UMD sent a letter to the then U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, which begins with the following:

The UMD are "urging" for support from the US, for Macedonia's entry into NATO. A month later, in March, the UMD leader makes the following statement:

Meto is advocating for Macedonia's entry to NATO by a name other than the official one, by a name other than the one the UMD are supporting in the links you provided. Another great UMD initiative in support of Macedonia's integrity? Scare-mongering? A sign of subservience? A submissive accetance of defeat?

And that last statement was a mistake, and he already said he shouldn't have said it. I do not want to get back into that issue again, I was merely trying to point out that US Macos are not subservient vassals to American foreign policy like Indigen and Osiris have alleged here.

[indigen]

And that last statement was a mistake, and he already said he shouldn't have said it. I do not want to get back into that issue again, I was merely trying to point out that US Macos are not subservient vassals to American foreign policy like Indigen and Osiris have alleged here.

Actually, you will find what I said is qualified and generally aimed at the (Bez)UMDovci.org and their foot soldiers like yourself and I have not seen Osiris slam all USA Macedonians anywhere but only Meto and his sidekicks. There are great Macedonian patriots in USA and Canada but they are not to be found amongst the (Bez)UMdovci.

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

You are correct when you say that not all US Macedonians are supports of vassal policies, however, you have demonstrated beyond doubt that you are.

[Soldier of Macedon]

And that last statement was a mistake, and he already said he shouldn't have said it.

And he also justified it seconds after his apparent confession, but this has already been explained to you and the rest of the apologists a hundred times by now.

[Vangelovski]

And he also justified it seconds after his apparent confession, but this has already been explained to you and the rest of the apologists a hundred times by now.

At the Canberra/Queanbeyan session in February, Meto claimed that UMD would be announcing all new spruced up policies - and even gave us a hint of the contents of one or two. Buktop, as UMD's resident apologist, have you got any idea of when we might see these new policies?

[Risto the Great]

I was merely trying to point out that US Macos are not subservient vassals to American foreign policy like Indigen and Osiris have alleged here.

You know what. I can't help myself. I like the Australian way of life. Plenty of opportunity, you work hard, you earn heaps of money, you play hard and also provide for your family's future. It is a great life. If promises were made to give Macedonia something similar thanks to Australia's influence ... off the cuff ... I would say "excellent!".

But then I would have to look what this kind of support entails. If USA and Australian citizens hated their lifestyles, they might choose to move back to Macedonia. But most hang around. It lends credence to supporting a lifestyle choice.

US Macos in the UMetoD look and smell like vassals to American foreign policy. If they are not, then it would be a an excellent (new) initiative for them to distinguish themselves from this perception.

[indigen]

So that means that all of us USA Macos are slavishly supporting anti-Macedonian policies? Because Microsoft is a US based company means it is actively promoting anti-Macedonian US foreign policy?

No to both silly questions! But it means morons (you know who they are!) who claim they are the greatest thing since sliced bread was invented in the Macedonian Diaspora are HYPOCRITES if they do not, and they have not done so to-date, take any action against a company based in their backyard and under US legal jurisdiction that has been implementing a very destructive anti-Macedonian agenda against ALL Macedonians.

My comparison with Australia was to show how stupid the statement was, not to actually comment on Australia.

We have seen the jibes coming from the (Bez)UMdovci and their foot soldiers against Macedonian activists in Australia too many times and my previous post was aimed at them in general.

UMD helped motivate people to counter House resolution 521 and H Con Res 306 both of which would have reversed the US' recognition of our constitutional name.

I don't value these activities at all, just as I did not value the useless publicity stunt about US Census 2010. USA foreign policy, IMO, is set by strategic agendas and highly unlikely they would reverse these decisions willy-nilly and lose international credibility. As it is, IMO, if USA withdrew recognition it may cause Macedonia to become more steely in defense of its national interests and may be a blessing in disguise. What good are "friends" who plan to stab you in the back at any opportune time and have agendas to exterminate you or try to pressure you into jumping off of a tall building?

Macedonians all over the US collaborated to counter these two resolutions.

And the USA is still putting pressure on Macedonians to commit national suicide! You need to evaluate the value and worth of your "lobbying" efforts, which, IME, amount to naught.

[Buktop]

Actually, you will find what I said is qualified and generally aimed at the (Bez)UMDovci.org and their foot soldiers like yourself and I have not seen Osiris slam all USA Macedonians anywhere but only Meto and his sidekicks. There are great Macedonian patriots in USA and Canada but they are not to be found amongst the (Bez)UMdovci.

You stated this

Why does not the US Macedonian community become "proactive" and stop/end US pressure on Macedonia aimed at forcing Macedonian capitulation and committing of final national suicide? Where is the "great and strong Macedonian Lobby" of USA - UMDovina.org to show some results?

Clearly naming the entire US Macedonian community, warranting my response.

Osiris stated this

great post indigen you are right american macedonians had better wake up quickly to the type of slavish support for us policies towards macedonia by some us macedonian organizations like the umd who claim to represent them

Again aimed at the entire US Maco community, warranting my response.

We are not going to get anywhere if we keep playing Aussie vs USA communities against eachother. We are all Macedonians who wish the best for Macedonia, though we may differ in opinion on how to achieve our goals, they are more or less the same.

No to both silly questions! But it means morons (you know who they are!) who claim they are the greatest thing since sliced bread was invented in the Macedonian Diaspora are HYPOCRITES if they do not, and they have not done so to-date, take any action against a company based in their backyard and under US legal jurisdiction that has been implementing a very destructive anti-Macedonian agenda against ALL Macedonians.

How do you propose we go about countering Microsoft's "anti-Macedonian" agenda? Which US laws may we site that would bare any significance on a decision? Can we prove, beyond any reasonable doubt, in a court of law, that Microsoft is employing an active, anti-Macedonian policy?

If we can, I would be glad to personally bring it to the attention of legal authorities.

We have seen the jibes coming from the (Bez)UMdovci and their foot soldiers against Macedonian activists in Australia too many times and my previous post was aimed at them in general.

As I stated, it was not a jibe, I asked you if it would be accurate to say that all Australian Macedonians are subserviently supporting Australian foreign policy because Australia doesn't recognize RoM? And I even answered it, and said NO, it would not be accurate, but this is the type of conclusion you have drawn for the US community.

I don't value these activities at all, just as I did not value the useless publicity stunt about US Census 2010. USA foreign policy, IMO, is set by strategic agendas and highly unlikely they would reverse these decisions willy-nilly and lose international credibility. As it is, IMO, if USA withdrew recognition it may cause Macedonia to become more steely in defense of its national interests and may be a blessing in disguise. What good are "friends" who plan to stab you in the back at any opportune time and have agendas to exterminate you or try to pressure you into jumping off of a tall building?

You obviously don't understand the bicameral two party situation currently in the US. You need to stop thinking of political ties as "being friends", and start thinking of it as a means to an end. Countries use eachother, and that is why Macedonia is looking for countries it can use to further it's cause. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

And the USA is still putting pressure on Macedonians to commit national suicide! You need to evaluate the value and worth of your "lobbying" efforts, which, IME, amount to naught.

The USA will do what it feels is best for it. They are pushing us to change our name so that we will join NATO and commit more of our soldiers to the war effort. I don't agree with it, but that is the way the political game works. If Macedonia was to be admitted to NATO under it's constitutional name, then the US would have no stake in the name dispute and would not bother commenting on it. That's what you need to realize, they don't care what we call ourselves, only what they stand to benefit. So what do we need to do? We need to make our cause appear more beneficial to the US than Greece's.

It does not matter to me what you think of our "lobbying efforts" because I know that we succeeded in achieving recognition and preventing that recognition from being reversed. In the end, it does not matter what some US envoy or ambassador say's about changing a name because we have the recognition already, the ball is in Gruevski's court. He and his administration are the only ones who I would be worried about when it comes to a name change.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

You are correct when you say that not all US Macedonians are supports of vassal policies, however, you have demonstrated beyond doubt that you are.

Once again a useless, unwarranted comment from a person who lacks the ability to engage in proper discussion.

At the Canberra/Queanbeyan session in February, Meto claimed that UMD would be announcing all new spruced up policies - and even gave us a hint of the contents of one or two. Buktop, as UMD's resident apologist, have you got any idea of when we might see these new policies?

Well seeing as you were a founding member of UMD why don't you tell me? Seeing as you know so much about them and their hidden agenda, perhaps you should enlighten all of us here? Then again, you really don't seem to know much of anything, so why don't you save us the trouble and wait for UMD to announce the new policies.