Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[Carlin]

The maps and Bulgarian statistics are no more reliable or believable than the Verković's quote itself. Besides, as you have yourself admitted they come no less than 40 years after Verković made that statement.

Are the following historical testimonies also dismissed as impossible?

1) Anonymi Descriptio Europae orientalis. Imperium Constantinopolitanum, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Ungaria, Polonia, Bohemia. Anno MCCCVIII exarata. Cracoviae, 1916: As per the anonymous traveler of Eastern Europe from the XIV century, it is stated that Vlachs (whom the author calls "Blasi"), are a numerous people living between Macedonia, Achaia and Salonika.

2) Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, 1774: The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of Thessaly and Macedonia.

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Somewhat unrelated to above.

3) Romans settled large groups of Italians throughout Macedonia.



4) From 1885, Vasile Maniu.

"Forgotten are even those Vlachs of Macedonia, who even in the times of the Crusades had such a power and colonized the interior of the peninsula, the "Weiles Skurta", on Mount Athos, these Vlachs are all forgotten: Morias, Romei, also Flacci or Volci..."




5) The following comes from Миленко Филиповић (Milenko Filipovic), from the book called Цинцари у Босни (Cincari/Aromanians in Bosnia).

- "natione Graeco-Valachus vulgo Czinczar"
- In Vojvodina "in the 17th century, (known) under the name of the Greeks"



In the same book, on page 74 M. Filipovic talks about the origin of the family Bokaris or Botsarić of Bosnia (which is very similar if not the same as Botsaris):

"Kao sto sam ranije izneo, u Banjoj Luci je moglo biti Cincara vec u pocetku druge polovine 18 veka. Po mom licnom saznanju, u Banjoj Luci su bili cincarskog porekla Zite, koji su izumrli u muskoj lozi. Bili su dosli od Korce, a tek ovde primili slavu sv. Djordja. Cincarskog porekla su i Petrušići ("Petrusi"), ciji je predak drzao han na Sitnici kod Banja Luke. Slusao sam da je nekada u Banjoj Luci ziveo i neki Cincarin koji je pravio ikone. Taj ikonopisac mogao bi biti, kako me je obavestio Đoko Mazalić, poznati slikar i istoricar umetnosti na tlu Bosne i Hercegovine, Atanasije Bokaris, docnije Bocarić, ciji je bio sin ili brat i poznati srpski slikar Špiro Bocarić. Bocarići su bili poreklom iz Makedonije ili Soluna: Atanasije je ucio slikanje u Solunu."

Translation:
"As I mentioned earlier, in Banja Luka, there could have been Aromanians already at the beginning of the second half of the 18th century. According to my personal knowledge, in Banja Luka Zita family were of Aromanian stock, which are extinct on paternal side. They came from Korcha (Albania), and only here they received or adopted the "slava" of St. George. Of Aromanian origin are the Petrusici ('Petrusi'), whose ancestor kept the inn on Sitnica near Banja Luka. I have heard that in Banja Luka, there lived some Aromanian, who made icons. This icon painter could have been, as Djoko Mazalić informed me, a famous painter and art historian in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Atanasije Bokaris, later Botsarić, whose son was (or brother) the famous Serbian painter Špiro Botsarić. The Botsarić family were originally from Macedonia or Solun: Atanasije studied painting in Solun."

(It is very likely that Atan. Bokaris was a Greek-speaker.)

[Amphipolis]

I stand by my earlier assertion that: Human memory and/or traditions (oral traditions, interviews) have been proven to be weak/poor proofs or evidence of anything.

Nothing, I repeat nothing, that has been presented in previous pages as 'proofs' - are actually proofs, nor do they prove anything.

I repeat.

In the late 19th century there were recorded over 100 (one hundred) Vlach villages in an extensive district within Macedonia as per Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković - as recorded in 1860. These villages no longer exist, and most of them (rapidly) Self-Hellenized - not just in language but in identity it seems. This affirms and proves my point that human memory/traditions are weak proofs -- because not even Amphipolis, who comes from near the area, remembers this - and this was written in 1860. More importantly, he mocked my Carlin-type sources.

Here are the two relevant quotes again. So I ask again, how are they explained away? Ad hominem attacks of the authors themselves, and not accepting certain facts/testimonies is not acceptable.

1) “… on both sides of the river Struma, all the way to the ruins of Amphipolis, and from Amphipolis eastward to Kavala going from either side of the Pangaion mountain range … there are over one hundred Bulgarian villages and as many Aromanian-Vlach villages, but there are barely twenty Greek ones, if at all.”

Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković, 1860: "Folk songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians".

2) “Vlach villages of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki areas abandoned their Vlach language during the 18th century and 19th century. Similarly, Vlach villages of the mountain ranges/districts of Kavala, Drama and Serres also abandoned their Vlach language.”

ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

Well, no offence but the first blue statement doesn't sound like a "recording" but at least it's a statement from 1860s. It doesn't seem close to possible since the maps I provided and the Bulgarian statistics we have are from 1900 (40 years later) and I'm sure there are more sources for Serres-Drama-Kavala region in between (e.g. from Vlach-Romanian propaganda).

On the contrary Exarchos is not a source because he doesn't even bother to provide any argument. He just says "Bouf was a Vlach village. The end". What is the value of such statements?

[Carlin]

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=01lYi1pW7W4C&pg=PA147&dq=armenians+settled+macedonia&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf_Z_ege_aAhWb_YMKHQiYCksQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=armenians%20settled%20macedonia&f=false

The Bogomils: A Study in Balkan Neo-Manichaeism, Dimitri Obolensky.

Page 147:

"Together with Thrace, Macedonia was likewise laid open in the late tenth century to penetration by a new wave of Eastern immigrants. In 988-9, according to the Armenian historian Asoghic, the Emperor Basil II transported a large number of Armenians into Macedonia and settled them on the borders of the Empire, to guard against Bulgarian attacks; the colonists, however, dissatisfied with the rule of their Byzantine masters, rebelled and passed over to the Bulgarians."

[Carlin]

I stand by my earlier assertion that: Human memory and/or traditions (oral traditions, interviews) have been proven to be weak/poor proofs or evidence of anything.

Nothing, I repeat nothing, that has been presented in previous pages as 'proofs' - are actually proofs, nor do they prove anything.

I repeat.

In the late 19th century there were recorded over 100 (one hundred) Vlach villages in an extensive district within Macedonia as per Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković - as recorded in 1860. These villages no longer exist, and most of them (rapidly) Self-Hellenized - not just in language but in identity it seems. This affirms and proves my point that human memory/traditions are weak proofs -- because not even Amphipolis, who comes from near the area, remembers this - and this was written in 1860. More importantly, he mocked my Carlin-type sources.

Here are the two relevant quotes again. So I ask again, how are they explained away? Ad hominem attacks of the authors themselves, and not accepting certain facts/testimonies is not acceptable.

1) “… on both sides of the river Struma, all the way to the ruins of Amphipolis, and from Amphipolis eastward to Kavala going from either side of the Pangaion mountain range … there are over one hundred Bulgarian villages and as many Aromanian-Vlach villages, but there are barely twenty Greek ones, if at all.”

Stefan or Stjepan Ilija Verković, 1860: "Folk songs of the Macedonian Bulgarians".

2) “Vlach villages of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki areas abandoned their Vlach language during the 18th century and 19th century. Similarly, Vlach villages of the mountain ranges/districts of Kavala, Drama and Serres also abandoned their Vlach language.”

ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

[Carlin]

Sclavonic is spoken in Macedon, Greek is a dead tongue, 1630

Source: “Epistolae Ho-Elianae:Familiar letters” by James Howell, 10th edition, 1737.

URL:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2008/11/19/sclavonic-is-spoken-in-macedon-greek-is-a-dead-tongue-1630/

1630: "... the Sclavonic Tongue hath abolished her in Epire and Macedon ..."

[tchaiku]

I have no desire or benefit to defend Greek interests but if you want to prove a Slavic majority in Macedonia (in 17th/18th century) you should do it with backing historical data.

[Risto the Great]

There were Serbs in Serbia calling themselves Greek due to church persuasions. I am not buying any of this bullshit. Niko had the right idea, see what the grandparents were speaking. Same applies today. Fake country, fake news. covevf

[maco2envy]

Any disagreement about the 300,000 Greeks of Macedonia?

That is out of the population which are followers of the Greek Church, so it makes sense that Greek speakers were the plurality of that group, especially by the year 1904. Although, Greek speakers were far from being the plurality when considering all of Aegean Macedonia's inhabitants around that time.

[Niko777]

Niko, if you have read the book that you are showing, what was proportion the population of Greeks and Macedonians (Slavic) on Macedonia (Aegean only) based on your assumption?

I am not assuming anything. I am only showing you facts. I am not disputing the number of 300,000 Greek speakers in Macedonia in 1904. I am only disputing the "Greekness" of those 300,000 Greek speakers. Those 300,000 Greek speakers were largely the product of Hellenization efforts from the Greek church, and later Greek sponsored schools, from roughly the year 1750. A better question to ask would be how many of those 300,000 Greek speakers had grandparents who spoke Greek? 50,000? I don't know the answer, I only know it's a lot less than 300,000.

[tchaiku]

Niko, if you have read the book that you are showing, what was the proportion of the population of Greeks and Macedonians (Slavic) on Macedonia (Aegean only) based on your assumption?

[Niko777]

Any evidence?

This book was written based on the dialects spoken in that village.

How?

That was just one example, not limited to that one village. So how many of those 300,000 Greek speakers in 1904 came from families who weren't speaking Greek just a couple centuries earlier?

[tchaiku]

I'll give you just one example. The village of Bogatsko in the Kostur region. By 1904 it was completely Greek speaking. But in the 1700s the village spoke Macedonian.

Any evidence?

How many of these 300,000 Greek speakers of 1904 spoke a different language in the 1700s?

How?

[Niko777]

Any disagreement about the 300,000 Greeks of Macedonia?

I'll give you just one example. The village of Bogatsko in the Kostur region. By 1904 it was completely Greek speaking. But in the 1700s the village spoke Macedonian. How many of these 300,000 Greek speakers of 1904 spoke a different language in the 1700s?

[tchaiku]

For the 1904 census of the 648,962 Greeks by church, 307,000 identified as Greek speakers, while about 250,000 as Slavic speakers and 99,000 as Vlach.

https://books.google.com/books?id=AI...page&q&f=false

Any disagreement about the 300,000 Greeks of Macedonia?

[tchaiku]

45,2% (that is all refugees, not just from Asia Minor, as counted in 1928)

Thank you.