Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[Momce Makedonce]

Modern nationalism is a product of the late 18th century and something that did not fully develop until the long 19th, especially in the Balkans. I seriously doubt anyone from Macedonia in that regiment had the same sort of ethnic/national identity we posses today.

Would would be the difference between someone identifying as Macedonian back then, compared to today? I ask because I`ve always heard of this concept of modern nationalities not being able to be compared to another point in history but never quite fully understood it.

[Momce Makedonce]

Hi MM. The term Risjani (Macedonian colloquialism for Christians) was definitely used among our people as a form of self identification. As was Macedonian. In fact, don't ever allow any doubts to creep into your mind, even for a moment, regarding the use of the term Macedonian as a self descriptor among Macedonians in the past, despite what the naysayers might say out there. I often refer to the Macedonian Hussar regiments of 1750 Russia when making this point since documents exist from the time where members of this regiment recorded their nationality as Macedonian.

This is the document I am referring to and it is from the National Historic Archives of Ukraine:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mk/e/e5/Makedonski_polk_vo_Ukraina.jpg

Macedonian Wikipedia, from where this document is referenced, says that the Macedonian regiment consisted of 4000 members, all with their own uniform and regiment standard (the lion). As the document indicates, all of them would have registered as Macedonians.

I don't think it's a forgery as the Bulgarians are not denying its authenticity, only the intent with which the term 'Macedonian' was used by the members of the Macedonian Hussar regiment. The Bulgarians, and, sadly, even some here on this forum, are claiming that they meant it in a regional sense and not an ethnic one. I can't understand why, whenever someone from the past claimed Macedonian identity, the burden of proof keeps falling on us to prove that they didn't actually mean it in a regional sense. We really are our own worst enemy at times and this is really disappointing to see. To me, here is valid proof that Macedonians identified as Macedonians as far back as the 1700's and here we are questioning this fact even among ourselves. Have we become that broken from all the constant denial of our identity by our enemies that we are starting to believe their crap?

From Macedonian Wikipedia:
Особено е интересно што припадниците на Македонскиот полк што имале силна македонска национална свест за својата национална припадност и себеси се сметале за Македонци и при своето пристигнување во Русија се изјаснувале дека се дел од македонската нација за што сведочат повеќе документи кои се чуваат во националниот историски архив на Украина во Киев (види слика i.e the link that i provided).

Hi Karposh, sorry for the delayed response.

Thanks for sharing that source its definitely a great one! I agree with you, its pretty clear that they identified as Macedonians and that`s all that matters. I do not understand the justification in this case for people believing that they identified as Macedonians in a regional sense.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Carlin's title is misleading as Sarmatians were not Slavs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

What is a Slav? Why are Macedonians, Czechs, Russians (all people with very different cultures and from very different regions of Europe) considered "Slavs" whilst some like the Sarmatians are not?

[Carlin]

I do agree that the ancient Sarmatians were not Slavs, but by the 4th century AD it's likely that there was some intermixture.

Even if there was no mixing - we should also keep in mind that in many cases the ancient and medieval reports were in many cases inconsistent, confusing or incorrect when it came to 'describing' tribes and their ethnic affiliation.

When (after) the Slavs migrated to the Balkans, "Scythians" or "Scythi-Slavs" was one of the desriptors used for these population groups - even though they were Slavic speakers. (Were Scythians Slavs?)

FYI - By the way my title is not misleading - it comes from here:


Some writers (such as Gibbon himself!) believed that Slavs descended from the Sarmatians.

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 1
By Edward Gibbon - Page 224.


A Compendious View of the History of the Darker Ages By Esq. C. CHATFIELD - Page 7.

[Amphipolis]

Well before the supposed migration.

Carlin's title is misleading as Sarmatians were not Slavs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

[Liberator of Makedonija]

- In 334 Constantine the Great settled 300,000 Slav Sarmatians in Macedonia.
- Constantine settled 300,000 Sarmatians on lands in Thrace, Italy and Macedonia.

https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=Slav+Sarmatians+in+Macedonia

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Sarmatians+settle+Macedonia

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Sarmatians+settle+Macedonia

https://books.google.ca/books?id=WG8OAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=300,000+Sarmatians+Macedonia&source=bl&ots=JZVb8SHTb9&sig=NXF2TnlUZMjBd_dum-cVCd7Ukrg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjM9PnomZLbAhUH5IMKHcR0BkMQ6AEIRzAG#v=onepage&q=300%2C000%20Sarmatians%20Macedonia&f=false

"... the Russe is the most genuine unsophisticated relic of the Sclavonian and Sarmatian"

https://books.google.ca/books?id=_UV...vonian&f=false

Well before the supposed migration.

[Carlin]

- In 334 Constantine the Great settled 300,000 Slav Sarmatians in Macedonia.
- Constantine settled 300,000 Sarmatians on lands in Thrace, Italy and Macedonia.

https://www.google.ca/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=Slav+Sarmatians+in+Macedonia

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Sarmatians+settle+Macedonia

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Sarmatians+settle+Macedonia

https://books.google.ca/books?id=WG8OAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=300,000+Sarmatians+Macedonia&source=bl&ots=JZVb8SHTb9&sig=NXF2TnlUZMjBd_dum-cVCd7Ukrg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjM9PnomZLbAhUH5IMKHcR0BkMQ6AEIRzAG#v=onepage&q=300%2C000%20Sarmatians%20Macedonia&f=false

"... the Russe is the most genuine unsophisticated relic of the Sclavonian and Sarmatian"

https://books.google.ca/books?id=_UVQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA410&lpg=PA410&dq=Sarmatians+Sclavonian&source=bl&ots=FmoLCkwYcl&sig=C8RvuGJYbrjwkB6l6zhAKRVG-0s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii_e7anZLbAhVByoMKHQkHDvIQ6AEIVTAR#v=onepage&q=Sarmatians%20Sclavonian&f=false

[Carlin]

Macedonian historian Natasha Kotlar - video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiVU_DLCZl4

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Albanians had schools in Tetovo during early 20th century?

I'm quoting a source not giving my personal opinion. If I were to guess, I'd say the number of Albanian schools skyrocketted during the occupation and people were forced to learn only Albanian as oppose to prior.

[tchaiku]

Albanians had schools in Tetovo during early 20th century?

[Liberator of Makedonija]

"It was also during this period, in the Albanian zone of occupation, that a major shift occured among urban Turkish speakers. For many Muslims of western Macedonia during the Ottoman period and First Yugoslavia, Turkish was the language of the towns and Albanian was the language of the villages (28). With the introduction of Albanian language schooling in the Albanian zone during World War Two, many Turkish speakers, especially in Tetovo, identified as Albanian and shifted to that language."

28: "A major exception to this pattern was the town of Debar, where Albanian was the urban Muslim language and Turkish was considered as a village language. Debar townsfolk were all bilingual in Macedonian and Albanian."

-Victor Friendman, The Effects of the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest on the Languages Spoken in Macedonia.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

The Macedonian Regiment is an interesting case that proves there were people being referred to and /or calling themselves Macedonian in the 18th century, but that is about it. We can't apply 19th century ideology to 18th century events, that is to believe the people in this regiment were as patriotic and nationalistic as we are today given that the vast majority of people in the Ottoman Empire at that time identified themselves by their religion and maybe social class, the idea of the modern nation was yet to be developed by intellectuals.

[Karposh]

My knowledge of medieval Macedonian history isn`t the best, however I`m interested to know if the way Macedonians self identified and/or were identified by outsiders changed drastically as a result of them being under Ottoman occupation? I know that labels such as "Christians" and "Peasants" were commonly used in places under Ottoman rule in favour of a national/ethnic label. Definitely an area I would like to further look into.

Hi MM. The term Risjani (Macedonian colloquialism for Christians) was definitely used among our people as a form of self identification. As was Macedonian. In fact, don't ever allow any doubts to creep into your mind, even for a moment, regarding the use of the term Macedonian as a self descriptor among Macedonians in the past, despite what the naysayers might say out there. I often refer to the Macedonian Hussar regiments of 1750 Russia when making this point since documents exist from the time where members of this regiment recorded their nationality as Macedonian.

This is the document I am referring to and it is from the National Historic Archives of Ukraine:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mk/e/e5/Makedonski_polk_vo_Ukraina.jpg

Macedonian Wikipedia, from where this document is referenced, says that the Macedonian regiment consisted of 4000 members, all with their own uniform and regiment standard (the lion). As the document indicates, all of them would have registered as Macedonians.

I don't think it's a forgery as the Bulgarians are not denying its authenticity, only the intent with which the term 'Macedonian' was used by the members of the Macedonian Hussar regiment. The Bulgarians, and, sadly, even some here on this forum, are claiming that they meant it in a regional sense and not an ethnic one. I can't understand why, whenever someone from the past claimed Macedonian identity, the burden of proof keeps falling on us to prove that they didn't actually mean it in a regional sense. We really are our own worst enemy at times and this is really disappointing to see. To me, here is valid proof that Macedonians identified as Macedonians as far back as the 1700's and here we are questioning this fact even among ourselves. Have we become that broken from all the constant denial of our identity by our enemies that we are starting to believe their crap?

From Macedonian Wikipedia:
Особено е интересно што припадниците на Македонскиот полк што имале силна македонска национална свест за својата национална припадност и себеси се сметале за Македонци и при своето пристигнување во Русија се изјаснувале дека се дел од македонската нација за што сведочат повеќе документи кои се чуваат во националниот историски архив на Украина во Киев (види слика i.e the link that i provided).

[Momce Makedonce]

My knowledge of medieval Macedonian history isn`t the best, however I`m interested to know if the way Macedonians self identified and/or were identified by outsiders changed drastically as a result of them being under Ottoman occupation? I know that labels such as "Christians" and "Peasants" were commonly used in places under Ottoman rule in favour of a national/ethnic label. Definitely an area I would like to further look into.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Likewise with the Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek peasantry around the region.

Yes exactly, the April Uprising failed to win the support of the peasantry.