Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[Carlin]

Quintus Curtius Rufus mentioned an interesting piece of information.

He wrote that Philotas, a Macedonian who was a naturalised Hellene, teased his fellow Macedonians by calling them "Phrygians or Paphlagonians".

Even earlier than this, Herodotus wrote that Phrygians and Paphlagonians wore very similar clothes. The similarity between the apparel of the Phrygians and Paphlagonians was recorded by Herodotus as follows: "The dress of the Phrygians closely resembled the Paphlagonian, only in a very few points differing from it".

The "Byzantine" historian and writer Nicephorus Gregoras during his visit to the town of Strumica in 1326, recorded that there he heard a large number of Macedonian folk songs. He affirms that, although he did not understand the language of the local population, the folk songs from Strumica definitely resembled - the Phrygian folk songs ("Correspondance" Paris, 1927, p. 30).

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Most of the population of Macedonia were described as Bulgarians during 16th and 17th centuries by Ottoman historians and travellers such as Hoca Sadeddin Efendi, Mustafa Selaniki, Hadji Khalfa and Evliya Celebi.

This comes from wikipedia.

A highly reliable source.

[tchaiku]

Most of the population of Macedonia were described as Bulgarians during 16th and 17th centuries by Ottoman historians and travellers such as Hoca Sadeddin Efendi, Mustafa Selaniki, Hadji Khalfa and Evliya Celebi.

This comes from wikipedia.

[Carlin]

(The map above seems to ignore the presence of Slavs and Vlachs in eastern Thrace. For instance, Vlachs are recorded in different districts throughout Thrace, one of them being around Bizye, which we can see above. Later on, the Vlachs were forcibly moved from Bizye to the Asiatic coast of the Bosphorus.)

[Amphipolis]

The map is unreliable as well as confusing. As I have repeated on countless occasions, we have numerous discrepancies.

I must be blind, but are Attica, Boeotia and (Eastern) Argolis marked with "Arvanite" colors? If not, why not?

This map (which is Austrian, not French, by the way) is probably THE oldest one (1840s) that's why I posted it. I think I can find (at least) two from 1860s, more from 1870s and so on. All maps have similarities and differences and different styles and qualities.

Confusing? The map of Peloponnesus has three types of pink areas that is impossible to distinguish.

Here's two more maps from 1860s, can't see any Vlachs in Eastern Macedonia.

[tchaiku]

I just quickly marked/colored in 'red' on the same map areas which used to be Albanian-speaking (I failed to mark in 'red' a couple of other areas) - as per the creator of the map - prior to the language shift (which probably took place only in the 18th-19th c.).

What makes you think that the language shift only took place during 18th and 19th century but not in 17th century?
1)The bulk of stradioti rank and file were of Albanian origin from regions of Greece, but by the middle of the 16th century there is evidence that many of them had been Hellenized and in some occasions even Italianized.

2) In fact, the 1572 survey of population and property of Nicosia after the Ottoman conquest, under beylerbey Sinan Pasha, recorded 90-95 local Armenians in Nicosia, out of about 1,100 inhabitants - all with completely Hellenised names.

3) A History of Cyprus, Volume 1 By George Hill. Page 261: "...certainly there was a coast-guard of Albanians in Cyprus under Venetian rule.." --> In the footnote of the same page, we read the following: "The Albanians formed a race apart, until they disappeared in the sixteenth century".

[tchaiku]

^

[Carlin]

Vlachs being 75% of Macedonia/Thessaly and 50% of Thrace is also out of question (they were certainly <5% and <1% respectively). Turks claimed they were 50+0,001% themselves. Here's one of the oldest maps (a french map from 1847)

The map is unreliable as well as confusing. As I have repeated on countless occasions, we have numerous discrepancies.

I must be blind, but are Attica, Boeotia and (Eastern) Argolis marked with "Arvanite" colors? If not, why not?






Another map - once again, discrepanices between maps:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=405

I just quickly marked/colored in 'red' on the same map areas which used to be Albanian-speaking (I failed to mark in 'red' a couple of other areas) - as per the creator of the map - prior to the language shift (which probably took place only in the 18th-19th c.).

[Carlin]

And how does this relate to the thread topic? Feel this would be better suited for a thread on Bulgarian propaganda or Macedonian literature

Feel free to move it - or have it moved there.

Adding (Repeating) relevant info.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Long story short, Spiro Gulabchev (who was from Lerin) is writing about and argues that Macedonia should be an independent state for a couple of different reasons - but states that the main ethnic element in Macedonia is Bulgarian, and frequently calls the inhabitants Macedonian Bulgarians. He is also arguing against Serbian claims and pretensions, and gives some examples of how Serbs are doing this. The primary way Serbs do this is by calling the 'main' ethnic element of Macedonia simply as "Slavs" - in which way Serbs are attempting to demonstrate that the Slavophone population of Macedonia is ethnically closer to the Serbs, than to the Bulgarians. For Gulabchev all these claims and assertions are propaganda, as he considers himself and the population of Macedonia as Bulgarian.

And how does this relate to the thread topic? Feel this would be better suited for a thread on Bulgarian propaganda or Macedonian literature

[Carlin]

If you're trying to make a point can you please underline the relevant text that relates to your point and provide an English translation.

Long story short, Spiro Gulabchev (who was from Lerin) is writing about and argues that Macedonia should be an independent state for a couple of different reasons - but states that the main ethnic element in Macedonia is Bulgarian, and frequently calls the inhabitants Macedonian Bulgarians. He is also arguing against Serbian claims and pretensions, and gives some examples of how Serbs are doing this. The primary way Serbs do this is by calling the 'main' ethnic element of Macedonia simply as "Slavs" - in which way Serbs are attempting to demonstrate that the Slavophone population of Macedonia is ethnically closer to the Serbs, than to the Bulgarians. For Gulabchev all these claims and assertions are propaganda, as he considers himself and the population of Macedonia as Bulgarian.

[tchaiku]

''In the broadest sense, both Greek and Western sources of the later Middle Ages—like the French, Italian, and Aragonese versions of the Chronicle of the Morea, or the chroniclers Ramon Muntaner and Marino Sanudo Torsello—used "Vlachia" or similar names (Blaquie, Blaquia, Val[l]achia) to refer to all of Thessaly, from the Pindus mountains in the west to the Aegean Sea in the east, and from the area of Mount Olympus and Servia in the north to the towns of Zetouni (Lamia) and Neopatras (Ypati) in the south.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia

Olympus was inhabited by Vlachs.

[Amphipolis]

2) Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, 1774: The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of Thessaly and Macedonia.

Vlachs being 75% of Macedonia/Thessaly and 50% of Thrace is also out of question (they were certainly <5% and <1% respectively). Turks claimed they were 50+0,001% themselves. Here's one of the oldest maps (a french map from 1847)

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Спиро Гулабчев од Лерин -- "Един оглед по етнографията на Македония", Габрово 1887 година.

If you're trying to make a point can you please underline the relevant text that relates to your point and provide an English translation.

[Carlin]

Спиро Гулабчев од Лерин -- "Един оглед по етнографията на Македония", Габрово 1887 година.