Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and his Macedonian ancestry

[Risto the Great]

I read that they have changed Ataturk's speech 3 times since he delivered it so that modern Turks can understand what he said.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Whatever his origins, Mustafa Kemal was a great man for Turkey, and much of his actions were progressive, which ensured that Turkey modernised much quicker than its neighbours in the middle east.

RtG, where did you read that? I know that Ottoman Turkish is not the same as modern Turkish, but which dialect did Kemal speak? I understand that European words were given preference to Persian and Arabic during the standardisation of modern Turkish, but not sure of the limit. An interesting word used by Ottomans was 'Beg', seemingly related to Persian Bagh(dad), related to the Sanskrit Bagh(avad), and to Slavic 'Bog'.

[Atesh]

No, Ottoman language was a mixte between persian, arbaian, turkish and all other language. But wrotten in arabian.

But all nation was their language, their alphabet but OFFICIAL is ottoman language. Macedonia, for exemple, was autonomus and can write and speak macedonian. Only soldier and sultan (+ those who work for Ottoman Empire) must speak Ottoman language and be muslim. Many sultans' mistress was serbian and european (english, austrian,...).

[Soldier of Macedon]

Many Sultan mothers were also non-Turkic.

[Atesh]

Yes, I know.

[osiris]

as my father often says in 600 years of ottoman empire we still retained our language religion amd much of our cultural identity, whears in less than 100 the greeks have attempted and ethno genocide. i believe the ottoman empire has been vilfied unfairly and must be reevaluated and judged in its historical context not by 20 century standards but by comparing the actions of the other empires of the same time, like the spainish in latin america and the english in africa australia etc.

atesh i have heard that kemal cried when macedonia was divided up between the 3 balkan amigos greece serbia and bulgaria, do you know anything about that.

[TrueMacedonian]

as my father often says in 600 years of ottoman empire we still retained our language religion amd much of our cultural identity, whears in less than 100 the greeks have attempted and ethno genocide. i believe the ottoman empire has been vilfied unfairly and must be reevaluated and judged in its historical context not by 20 century standards but by comparing the actions of the other empires of the same time, like the spainish in latin america and the english in africa australia etc.

atesh i have heard that kemal cried when macedonia was divided up between the 3 balkan amigos greece serbia and bulgaria, do you know anything about that.

Wow I never even heard that. Osiris man this is why we need you around here more often my friend. You are full of untapped knowledge.

[osiris]

tm most of my past hearsays have proved to be correct, dont forget kemal was born and lived his early years in macedonia. why wouldnt he have a deep emotional link with his birthplace, many of the other people who left macedonia to return to turkey also did so with deep sadness.

do you know the words of the song bitola moi roden krai didnt a muslim write it. what about all the posts we have seen about the nostalgia many of those people currently feel for macedonia.in my one time in instanbul i met many people who had links with macedonia some were turks sone obviously torbeshi or albanians many spoke macedonian as well as me and all spoke about their love for macedonia.

my experiences with turks in australia has been very positive they are very generous and hospitable people.

[Dejan]

I remember they had the guy who wrote Bitola Moj Roden Kraj on MKTV not long ago. From what I remember he was turkish.

[Atesh]

I'm sorry, I never heard that... I will search...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is something interesting.

http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/1d9b9/6ea3c/

Veli Bey, who was an Ottoman army officer in Bitola had to leave here in 1912 when Balkan Wars started. He could never turn back to his homeland and died in Bolu in Turkey 1951.

After 94 years I am the first one from the family to visit homeland of Veli Bey.

It was one of my most excited travels...

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian%E2%80%93Turkish_relations

On that occasion, the Macedonian minister also announced that the Macedonian government decided to renew the house of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's parents, located in the village of Kodžadžik near Debar. The Turkish authorities allowed Macedonian archaeologists to make a copy of the Alexander Sarcophagus that afterwards will be displayed in a Macedonian museum.

But many sources say that he was born in Salonika?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk%27s_personal_life

Atatürk was born in the then Ottoman city of Salonika (Turkish: Selânik, modern-day Thessaloniki, Greece) from Ali Rıza Efendi and Zübeyde Hanım.

Of his father and mother:

Ali Rıza Efendi (1839 – 1888) was the father of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and the husband of Zübeyde Hanım. He was born in Thessaloniki, Ottoman Empire and worked as a customs official. He died in 1888 when his son was 7 years old.

Zübeyde Hanım (1857 – 14 January 1923) was the mother of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the founder of the Republic of Turkey. She was born as the only daughter of the Hacısofular family with two brothers. Zübeyde was born in Salonica, then part of the Ottoman Empire.

I take it that the gesture of the Macedonian government to restore the house of Kemal's parents is acknowledged as truthful and in existence, why would they have a house in the far west of Macedonia if they are all born in Salonika?

Atesh, can you help with this one?

[VMRO]

as my father often says in 600 years of ottoman empire we still retained our language religion amd much of our cultural identity, whears in less than 100 the greeks have attempted and ethno genocide. i believe the ottoman empire has been vilfied unfairly and must be reevaluated and judged in its historical context not by 20 century standards but by comparing the actions of the other empires of the same time, like the spainish in latin america and the english in africa australia etc.

atesh i have heard that kemal cried when macedonia was divided up between the 3 balkan amigos greece serbia and bulgaria, do you know anything about that.

Attaturk apparently did not want Eastern Thrace to become apart of Turkey, however the greater powers gave it to Turkey, he stated that Eastern Macedonia was never part of Turkey.

[Soldier of Macedon]

VMRO, do you any information further to that? A link or source?

[Coolski]

The modern Turkish ethnic group is similar to the Greek ethnic group, in that it is a modernly constructed group based on people's religion at the turn of last century. So, when people say that he is Turkish, it is probably true in the modern sense of the word (hell, he was the founder of modern Turkey of course he can be considered Turkish).

If it is true that he is ethnically Macedonian on his maternal side, then i'd say that this piece of information has the potential to bring Macedonian and Turkish relations closer, so long as it is not presented as a competition for ownership, but rather a piece of common history.

From what I understand, the modern Turkish ethnic group is quite a mix historically and ethnically speaking, having adopted its language from asiatic tribes coming westwards, which mixed with and assimilated the local Mediterranean populations to form what are now known as Turks. I don't really feel the need to bring this point up all the time because 1. unlike Greeks, Turks realise these facts, and 2. Turks do not deny Macedonians the right to exist with hypocritical arguments and idiotic politics like our Greek neighbours do.