Turkey & China: alternative for Macedonia?

[Prolet]

Onur, How do you see this Turkish Government going in the next election in 2011? Some say that Turkish-Israeli relations wont go too far if they stay in government.

Abdullah Gul comes from the same party i think.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Prolet

Onur, How do you see this Turkish Government going in the next election in 2011? Some say that Turkish-Israeli relations wont go too far if they stay in government.

Abdullah Gul comes from the same party i think.

In the latest polls of the last month, Erdogan`s islamist conservative party still leading the votes by 37%, second is secular leftist party with %32, 3rd one is central rightist party with %13. Erdogan`s party had 46% of all the votes in 2007 elections, so his support dropped by %10.

So currently, it looks like there Erdogan wont get enough votes to be the sole ruling party and secular leftist and central rightist party can form a coalition for the government. Erdogan`s only chance is to get enough votes to be the sole power cuz neither of two other major parties considers forming a coalition with him. Thats why he is trying to hang in so hard and most probably using the relations with Israel to get more support inside Turkey.

It is true that nothing will change between Israel and Turkey as long as Erdogan stays in power here and far rightist Netenyahu government stays in power at Israel.

And yes, Erdogan selected his best buddy Abdullah Gul with his majority in the parliament. There was a lot of tensions when he was first elected cuz other parties was saying that he and his wife with headscarf shouldn't represent Turkey internationally.


Erdogan is just trying to use his power to change Turkey`s strictly secular traditions. Actually, if i try to be unbiased as much as possible, he is kinda right that we have one of the most strict secular laws in the world. Think about that; Relatively the most secular state of the Europe, France is trying to ban burqa there, while let alone burqa, even headscarf is abandoned in Turkey(all schools incl. universities and all other public buildings) for 75 years. Burqa is out of question is Turkey, it`s something unthinkable here. Btw don't think that all his supporters have pro-islamist views. Some of them giving vote to his party because of Turkey`s fairly good economy. Actually, only about ~15% of his total 37% supports his pro-islamist views but rest(mainly liberals) doesn't care about headscarves or islam, they just give their support to him because of other reasons.

So, i believe it`s OK to change our strict secular laws to some degree but problem is, no one trusts him except his 37% supporters. People thinks that he might consider going further than just allowing headscarf. We also concern about extremists at middle-east cuz they can try to gain influence here because of Erdogan`s islamist proposals. Maybe few Algerian, African people with burqas wouldn't do any harm to France but in Turkey, %90 of people are muslims, so these things might have different effect in Turkey. I trust Turkish people but i don't trust Wahabi extremists cuz they have unlimited money, human resources and everything.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The issues that Turks have with Wahabists isn't something new, even the Ottomans found alot of difficulty trying to contain their extremism.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

The issues that Turks have with Wahabists isn't something new, even the Ottomans found alot of difficulty trying to contain their extremism.

Yes. That movement started to be active at early years of 19th century. Ottoman forces put strong pressure upon them at first. British realized it`s importance and gave them strong support against Ottoman government(maybe wahhabism was purely a British creation at that time, dunno). Then after British support, Wahhabism quickly merged with pro-Arab nationalistic ideas and they started to be anti-Turkish in every area at late 19th century.

Now, they rule all the Arabic countries and they have a lot of money and resources unlike Ottoman era. So, they are more dangerous atm.

[fyrOM]

China will give 28 million dollars to Turkey for the express railway

http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=3645A...FE489395A51DF3

STANBUL, September 16 (DPA) - Turkish and Chinese companies will collaborate to build an express railway network in Turkey, which will stretch the country's western border with Greece and Bulgaria, to the eastern border, Turkish media reported yesterday.
According to Director General of Turkish State Railway Suleyman Karaman, including contracts concluded at last week's visit of Chinese Premier Wen Gjijabao, has such an agreement by which China will provide $ 28 million dollars for financing the railway network.
A government representative said that Turkey plans to build a line of 6,000 km of express trains from Edirne in western Turkey to Kars, a town near the eastern border with Armenia.
Turkey is currently building an underwater railway tunnel which passes under the Bosphorus in Istanbul, which divides Europe from Asia. Once the tunnel is completed, trains can travel from Western Europe to China.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by OziMak

China will give 28 million dollars to Turkey for the express railway

http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=3645A...FE489395A51DF3

This project is huge and both Turkey and China are eager to complete it as quickly as possible. Especially China wants to revive the ancient silk road to open a major trade route between east and west. Turkish tv channels reported that China will give us their super fast trains with 350+ km top speed and we will build the railways from western Turkey to China.

I`m really excited about this


So, both China and Turkey are investing for peace in whole Asia but i don't think US will be happy about this. These common agreements between Turkey and China depends on the peace in middle-east and i think both countries will do their best to prevent US military operation vs Iran.

[fyrOM]

I think Turkey feels they have waited much too long for entry I the eu and more support from the west so they are starting to turn to the east. No big loss for Turkey now that they have elsewhere to turn. The west will loose more.

[Prolet]

Onur, Do you know that there are ethnic Turks in China? This is great but with $28 million they wont be able to build 20km of railway, its going to cost billions in order to complete 6000km, it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars but that would be fantastic for Turkey if it happens.

[George S.]

the eu will find it's like a sinking ship when more & more countries are looking for alternatives.Macedonia should do the same & look at means & ways to develop itself further like turkey.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by OziMak

I think Turkey feels they have waited much too long for entry I the eu and more support from the west so they are starting to turn to the east. No big loss for Turkey now that they have elsewhere to turn. The west will loose more.

We had bilateral agreements with EU since 1960s and Turkey has been an associate member of the EU and its predecessors since then. I think we did our first application for full membership in 1980s and we are a member of EU custom union since 1995.

Yes, we`ve waited for too long and it`s enough. I`ve never supported EU membership myself since i believe EU can give us nothing. EU countries are like eventide home comparing to Turkey and they need immigrants to be able to sustain their development. Turkey`s population has median age of 27 but EU countries has like 40+. We are culturally different and we don't belong to an union of western European values. Also, Turkish people never agrees to become a part of an union if don't have equal amount of rights with other ruling authorities. This is something unacceptable for Germany and France, therefore Turkey cant be a member of EU.

Turkey is not like Bulgaria or Greece. It`s difficult(maybe impossible) for both sides to be able to tolerate and digest each other in any type of union.

Originally Posted by Prolet

Onur, Do you know that there are ethnic Turks in China?

Yes, there are ~12 million Uyghur Turks living in China and Chinese government is always suspicious and hostile towards them. Whenever a tension rises in East Turkestan province, Chinese army kills 100s of them, arrests few 1000 more. Turkey tried doing pressure to China to stop the suffering of Turks in there but it usually doesn't work cuz China is a communist state and they are kinda closed to the international influence.

China is keeping Uyghur people under pressure and they always regarded Turkey with suspicion cuz they fear of an ideology called Pan-Turkism. Actually this is nonsense because these ideologies never gained support more than %5-6 of Turkish people.

Pan-Turkism is an ideology formed in the last years of Ottoman Empire, which aims to unite all Turkic people like EU does for Europe but it`s something unrealistic as long as China and Russia exists. Russians was also hostile towards Turkey because of this very same reason in USSR era. Thats why Russia always supported Armenia and they used them as a buffer between Turkey and the rest of Turkic states for 100 years.

This is great but with $28 million they wont be able to build 20km of railway, its going to cost billions in order to complete 6000km, it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars but that would be fantastic for Turkey if it happens.

Yes it will cost billions but Besides China and Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Azerbaijan will be a part of this project too.