Financial Crisis in Greece

[Brian]

Greece was on trial not Macedonia, that was the whole point. We never raised an objection during those incidents so the court had no choice but to rule only on the basis of the veto by Greece and not by previous actions done by Macedonia.

Total BS Voltron.

All the "previous actions done by Macedonia" were the points Greece argued for their justification in using veto - ie they did not argue they had the right to veto without cause. The court DID NOT look at only the one part of the IA about Greece letting Macedonia enter as FYROM (without looking at the 'provocation clause') and such "the court had no choice but to rule only on the basis of the veto by Greece and not by previous actions done by Macedonia."

By rejecting Greece's assertion that Macedonia violated the agreement first thereby justifying Greece's veto proves your above statement wrong.

Again, in every instance Macedonia did everything in its power to avoid finding a mutual accepted solution even reverting to the ICJ to try and unilaterally sideline Greece in this dispute.

Valid diplomacy to argue the point Macedonia thinks she's Macedonia in the best of her ability to express herself - ie simply stating your case does not make one wrong. The fact it dragged on for 20 years is another mater.

The ICJ was not "sideline Greece" but to enforce a point in the IA ie that Greece should let Macedonia in as FYROM and that Greece's veto is illegal. This action does NOT precondition a cessation of negotiation which itself is a condition of the IA. Greece just wanted her illegal actions to be called valid leverage. Macedonia had every right to point this out and demand redress.

On the other hand if we would of taken you to court first for your actions it would of been a different story, but we didnt since we did not want to aggravate the situation.

Not at all!
Had Greece taken Macedonia to the IJC the same points would have been raised ie WAS Macedonia being provocative to justify Greece's veto - it's the same points to be argued the only difference is just who is the plaintiff and who is the defendant.

It would of been much harder next to impossible for us to veto you if you guys would of just played cool.

And by "playing cool" you mean voluntarily call Macedonia FYROM, refrain from demanding other nations calling us Macedonia and not using the term Macedonia internally on our institutions, documents, buildings and monuments - in other words refrain from using the word Macedonia unless there's a 'New/North/ect' in front of it but we're still in negotiations???LOL. Say your wrong first and then we will negotiate?LOL.LOL.LOL.

Nobody harbors active malice, I dont know anybody that hates or even dislikes you. It just politics and both our governments could of handled this in a much better fashion.

Wow, which part of Greece do you live in because from news reports border guards have harassed Macedonians, trucks and people have been stopped on the road and been harassed, vehicles have been defaced by graffiti and damaged, military have marched in parades in main streets openly chanting 'destruction' to Macedonia while huge crowds watched and clapped, economics has been used as a weapon, and the illegal use of veto are all but some of what I could mention without going into what happened and still happens with the Aegean Macedonians. Sounds like malice to most people.

[Voltron]

Total BS Voltron.

All the "previous actions done by Macedonia" were the points Greece argued for their justification in using veto - ie they did not argue they had the right to veto without cause. The court DID NOT look at only the one part of the IA about Greece letting Macedonia enter as FYROM (without looking at the 'provocation clause') and such "the court had no choice but to rule only on the basis of the veto by Greece and not by previous actions done by Macedonia."

By rejecting Greece's assertion that Macedonia violated the agreement first thereby justifying Greece's veto proves your above statement wrong.

I meant if we would of taken you to court first. Not the arguments we used as to why we used the Veto during the trial as the Defendant.

Not at all!
Had Greece taken Macedonia to the IJC the same points would have been raised ie WAS Macedonia being provocative to justify Greece's veto - it's the same points to be argued the only difference is just who is the plaintiff and who is the defendant.

Again, see above. The use of historical symbolism and expansionist expressions (Gruevski laying the wreath showing Greek Macedonia region on it), etc. That happened before the Veto.

And by "playing cool" you mean voluntarily call Macedonia FYROM, refrain from demanding other nations calling us Macedonia and not using the term Macedonia internally on our institutions, documents, buildings and monuments - in other words refrain from using the word Macedonia unless there's a 'New/North/ect' in front of it but we're still in negotiations???LOL. Say your wrong first and then we will negotiate?LOL.LOL.LOL.

By playing cool I meant avoiding the use of historical statues, symbols and the renaming of facilities and roads that was intentionally done just to

Dont expect to get invited to someones club when your pissing on his front lawn.

[makedonche]

Voltron

Dont expect to get invited to someones club when your pissing on his front lawn.

That's our lawn we're pissing on, you need to get your club off our lawn!

[Phoenix]

Provocations my arse Voltron.

What so called provocations existed when Macedonia declared it's independence...and yet you applied blockades, both political and economic with threats of military intervention thrown in...

It's not like one billboard, the name of an airport or highway is the sticking point...even the dumbest 'greek' and Asia minor refugee knows that... You know exactly what the problem is my refugee friend.

[Brian]

I meant if we would of taken you to court first. Not the arguments we used as to why we used the Veto during the trial as the Defendant.

That's exactly what I'm saying - if Greece had taken Macedonia to the ICJ first they would have argued the same actions by Macedonia as being in violation of the IA. If won Macedonia would have been told to knock-it-off but these very same points/actions are what the court rejected as violations so whether Greece bitched about them first or used them as defence later is irrelevant to the outcome - they were the same points that would have been used in both instances. It was not a case of if Greece got in first they would have won.

The reason Greece did not take Macedonia to the IJC was not out of kindness or a hope that being nice would help Macedonia come to her senses but plain flat out expert legal opinion was in favour of Macedonia and Greece would have known this - would you bother with taking someone to court when every legal expert is telling you there is no valid case and you will definitely loose??? Why do you think Greece didn't even bother showing up for the result of the ICJ but for 1 single solicitor to technically hear the result. They KNEW they lost BEFORE the case even started and would have been exactly the same outcome if Greece started proceedings earlier. It is unimaginable to think the Greeks would not have used the ICJ earlier if they knew or even thought they had a slight chance of winning.

Again, see above. The use of historical symbolism and expansionist expressions (Gruevski laying the wreath showing Greek Macedonia region on it), etc. That happened before the Veto.

Macedonians died in defence of their families and sense of self as a Macedonian in ALL 4 parts of Macedonia. Should the Aegean Macedonians have been deliberately forgotten and disrespected because they were in the Aegean part.

It's kind of like the same rubbish now - anyone who even says Macedonians EXIST in the Aegean part is labelled anti-Greek and vilified.



By playing cool I meant avoiding the use of historical statues, symbols and the renaming of facilities and roads that was intentionally done just to

ALL were valid actions according to expert legal opinion and ICJ. Just because Greece wants the word Macedonia not even to be mentioned outside of Greece is illegal and boo-hoo.

Dont expect to get invited to someones club when your pissing on his front lawn.

That's the point, it's NOT Greece's club so Greece has NO right to dictate the terms - eg if we went to your house for your party you can rightly say you don't want music by a particular singer to be played JUST because you don't like their music but you cannot go to a night club as a patron and demand they change the music when everyone else wants it. Even as a 'part owner' you would have to abide by the rules of association of the club and not JUST because you said so. Germany and others have already said they would allow Macedonia in as Macedonia and are hoping one side backs down and we can get on with 'the party'.

What freaks the Greeks out is if they abide by the law and Macedonia gets in as FYROM it would then be too easy for those members (nearly all of them) who already recognise her as Macedonia to just say let's all just forget this FYROM rubbish and caller her Macedonia.

This is where the real 'shite hits the fan' because if then there is recognised a Macedonia and Macedonians outside of Greece then it automatically raises the question aren't there any Macedonians in Greeces 'real' Macedonia. Then the buckets of shite keep comming - why are these people not allowed to call themselves Macedonians, what other discrimination has been happening to them, what happend in 1946-48, how did Greece end up with these people (1912), who was there before this time, where did all these 'new Greeks/Macedonians' come from to settle there, ect, ect, ect??? The list goes on and on without end. That's why one Greek politician once said, if Macedonia (RoM) wins recognition we might as well hand over the keys. Sounds about right.

[Risto the Great]

.even the dumbest 'greek' and Asia minor refugee knows that...

I agree, both of them know that.

[Voltron]

[That's the point, it's NOT Greece's club[/COLOR] [COLOR="Navy"]so Greece has NO right to dictate the terms - eg if we went to your house for your party you can rightly say you don't want music by a particular singer to be played JUST because you don't like their music but you cannot go to a night club as a patron and demand they change the music when everyone else wants it. Even as a 'part owner' you would have to abide by the rules of association of the club and not JUST because you said so. Germany and others have already said they would allow Macedonia in as Macedonia and are hoping one side backs down and we can get on with 'the party'.

Germany and others have said that you will join only after the issue is settled. That has been stated a million times already.

What freaks the Greeks out is if they abide by the law and Macedonia gets in as FYROM it would then be too easy for those members (nearly all of them) who already recognise her as Macedonia to just say let's all just forget this FYROM rubbish and caller her Macedonia.

Exactly, ^ Thats the approach that has been followed so far. So the intent is obvious. What would you do if you were in our shoes ? Just let it happen ? I doubt it.

This is where the real 'shite hits the fan' because if then there is recognised a Macedonia and Macedonians outside of Greece then it automatically raises the question aren't there any Macedonians in Greeces 'real' Macedonia. Then the buckets of shite keep comming - why are these people not allowed to call themselves Macedonians, what other discrimination has been happening to them, what happend in 1946-48, how did Greece end up with these people (1912), who was there before this time, where did all these 'new Greeks/Macedonians' come from to settle there, ect, ect, ect??? The list goes on and on without end. That's why one Greek politician once said, if Macedonia (RoM) wins recognition we might as well hand over the keys. Sounds about right.

No, not quite. Identity is not part of the negotiating process. Gruevski is the one that keeps putting that on the table. Nobody cares as to how you call yourselves. And no, the events of 1912 will not suddently be reversed, geezus im surpised people keep thinking that. There is so much historical baggage espescially related to Bulgaria that it would be a neverending process of trying to prove your point. The Armenians cant even have their Genocide recognised on a unanimous global scale how much more difficult would it be for you to prove what your saying to people and the borders to magically shift in your favor.

[Bill77]

Germany and others have said that you will join only after the issue is settled. That has been stated a million times already.

Thats because of the vetoing rules in this club and they can't do much about it, so they state the obvious. Its not because you turn them on. So get your hand out of the front of your pants, Germany and others hate your guts at the moment so stop being so vain.

You must stop this shit, i have nothing left in my stomach to throw up.

First Greece are tough bastards, on top of that, you are diplomatic, fair, sensible and wise........
Now you make it out that you's are sexy and everyone loves you.

You all are one of a kind that's for sure.

[Brian]

Germany and others have said that you will join only after the issue is settled. That has been stated a million times already.

Well not exactly a million times, it's only a recent twist. Because of the 'club' rules that decisions must be unanimous and no mechanism is in place for expelling a member it makes it 'difficult' but not impossible as FYROM. I think they're just dragging it on to see if Macedonia blinks otherwise there is no justification to prevent Macedonia entering as FYROM and will probably be.

Exactly, ^ Thats the approach that has been followed so far. So the intent is obvious. What would you do if you were in our shoes ? Just let it happen ? I doubt it.

Greece's motives for using their veto illegally is obvious. Proving it was illegal via the ICJ was Macedonia's first step. The next stage is also obvious - the next NATO meeting will see Macedonia in as FYROM (I know there's been noise about it wont happen) or they will fail and an appeal to the ICJ will follow forcing all other parties to explain themselves. The court did not impose specific instructions because in their words the court didn't see the need to as they did not expect any further such problems. The dragging on is not because Macedonia is not right but to see if she will blink or if an internal strife happens to distract her or put pressure on her to concede. I would not be surprised if our best friend the USA stirs the Albanians to cause problems in the very near future. Macedonia should read the signs and be ready to swat any Albanian threat with absolute force.

No, not quite. Identity is not part of the negotiating process. Gruevski is the one that keeps putting that on the table.

Only a Greek would think to lie that you can call the country one thing and your identity another and only a fool would believe them. You cannot seriously think the country could be called Monkeydonia and the rest of the world wont call them Monkeys. The identity is part-and-parcel with the name of the country. Anomalies like North/South Korea as a country and the identity as Korean for both are obvious - they both were Korean prior to the war and partition.

Nobody cares as to how you call yourselves.

Greece does and very much so as do the RoM Macedonians.

In reality if RoM decided to call herself Monkeydonia the rest of the world would have people/politicians who would not be happy to give up the fight but would accept it because if the party concered wants to call themselves Monkeys then there's not much the others can do.

And no, the events of 1912 will not suddently be reversed, geezus im surpised people keep thinking that.

They wont be reversed. All it will do is highlight the theft and Greece doesn't want the image of the 'grinning thief' but the righteous proprietor. Further Greece doesn't want to upset her '100% Greek' image and then have to deal with minority rights.

There is so much historical baggage espescially related to Bulgaria that it would be a neverending process of trying to prove your point. The Armenians cant even have their Genocide recognised on a unanimous global scale how much more difficult would it be for you to prove what your saying to people and the borders to magically shift in your favor.

The Bulgarians are a sideline. They're Greece's other tool to keep her theft a secret.

Armenia is not an appropriate example because nobody saw/can see their genocide - who was there, the perpetrator and the victim who now claims to be the witness, a case of he said/she said.

Macedonia is different because it is a well documented location. Further there is ample evidence from the Turks and others that the Aegean part had lots of people there who self identified as Macedonians and spoke much the same as the current language of RoM. In addition the mass migration of 'Greeks' from Turkey and their resettlement post 1912 is also well documented and cannot be denied. Documented evidence is hard to refute and miles superior to hearsay. I am not saying the Armenian incident did or didn't happen just that in terms of evidence Aegean Macedonia's case has a mountain of evidence in comparison.

The problem with the Macedonian case is it's all resting on the linchpin of are these people Macedonians or Monkeydonians because we know for a fact they were there then and still are there now. This is the real reason Greece is concerned with the identity but tries to not link it to the name to avoid such questions and narrow the scope of any talks to just plain thuggery, 'you want EU, I have veto, you give me name (even though it's really yours), I give you EU, simple.' At least that's how it was supposed to work with the IA. The Greeks thought they 'had it in the bag' and 20 years later the 'cat' still wont 'go in the bag'.

[Voltron]

Stop calling it Aegean part. You guys were never coastal and I would like to know where all these " Aegeans" are from aside from Lerin, Voden or Kostur. Cmon Brian.

Theft is a pretty convenient term. Turks stole Asia Minor and we stole Macedonia is your logic. Well, tell that to the Greeks that were always present albeit in smaller numbers but they were there. The world also knows this as well. Its ironic how you say Macedonia is well documented location, but at the same time all the historical references to Macedonia as ill informed westrners that got played by us. Macedonia is a region that was up for grabs, the sooner you realise it the less misunderstandings we will have.

[Daskalot]

What freaks the Greeks out is if they abide by the law and Macedonia gets in as FYROM it would then be too easy for those members (nearly all of them) who already recognise her as Macedonia to just say let's all just forget this FYROM rubbish and caller her Macedonia.

This is where the real 'shite hits the fan' because if then there is recognised a Macedonia and Macedonians outside of Greece then it automatically raises the question aren't there any Macedonians in Greeces 'real' Macedonia. Then the buckets of shite keep comming - why are these people not allowed to call themselves Macedonians, what other discrimination has been happening to them, what happend in 1946-48, how did Greece end up with these people (1912), who was there before this time, where did all these 'new Greeks/Macedonians' come from to settle there, ect, ect, ect??? The list goes on and on without end. That's why one Greek politician once said, if Macedonia (RoM) wins recognition we might as well hand over the keys. Sounds about right.

This is the real Truth to why Greece denies Macedonia its right to its name.

[Brian]

Stop calling it Aegean part.

It's the common name for this region by simple reference to the largest geographical feature in the area.

You guys were never coastal and I would like to know where all these " Aegeans" are from aside from Lerin, Voden or Kostur. Cmon Brian.

Greece doesn't exactly keep stats so if I had to guess I would think maybe some are still there, some killed off in the invasion, some converted to new Greeks, many in the dispora or RoM.

Theft is a pretty convenient term.

Accurate too.

Turks stole Asia Minor and we stole Macedonia is your logic. Well, tell that to the Greeks that were always present albeit in smaller numbers but they were there.

Ahh 'Grasshopper', that is the BIG point. There were even very small numbers of Greeks in the RoM part during the Ottoman days because a few people moved around the empire but when the majority are something else and they were both "always there" it doesn't mean it was "always" Greek.

The world also knows this as well.

That's why it's important to keep the lid on things and force a name change on RoM.

Its ironic how you say Macedonia is well documented location, but at the same time all the historical references to Macedonia as ill informed westrners that got played by us.

You were too incompetent to form your own country and the West had to create it for you - even your first king and Prime Minister were totally foreign. They were investing in creating you and thus had a vested interest in creating a back-story for you as well while any evidence to the contrary was purposely ignored or vilified. If the Macedonians couldn't speak up for themselves who do you think would for them - the Serbs, Bulgarians or Albanians who perpetrated the theft, or the West who orchestrated and financed it? You didn't hoodwink the West into rewriting history, it was they who wrote it for you.LOL. So all the imports to call themselves Macedonians today knew they were from Macedonian origins even though they lived in Asia Minor for millennia and didn't think they might be originally from eg Sparta ect. and so claim to be proud descendants and hairs to the Spartan heritage? Or is it that if they tried that the Spartans would have told them, "Piss-off you lost malakas".

Macedonia is a region that was up for grabs, the sooner you realise it the less misunderstandings we will have.

The sooner you realise Macedonia was NOT Terra Nullius your misunderstandings will begin to clear up. It was weak moment where they faced large armies on all sides who were well armed and financed by the West/Russia. The ability to take something doesn't make it right.

Was the environment right for the 'picking'? - Yes, but it doesn't mean we should allow relatively recent (1912 & 1946) history to be swept under the carpet. If it is an inconvenience to you to hear the truth after a century of repeated lies - tuff.

[TojSum]

Macedonia is a region that was up for grabs,

Something like cake on the plate and nobody knows who made that cake (or whom does belong that cake)

I'm always saying and i will say now, the only thing that i admire the Greeks is the ability to deceive themselves.

[Niko777]

Stop calling it Aegean part. You guys were never coastal and I would like to know where all these " Aegeans" are from aside from Lerin, Voden or Kostur. Cmon Brian.

Here you go Voltron:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6291&highlight=trikala

[Risto the Great]

Stop calling it Aegean part. You guys were never coastal and I would like to know where all these " Aegeans" are from aside from Lerin, Voden or Kostur. Cmon Brian.

There were remnants of Hellenes that existed in coastal areas. Then there was huge largely un-populated slabs of land owned by the church.

Please don't add the christian former Turkish nationals of the 1920's in your demographic analysis!

What you're saying is something like the south of USA having a significant Mexican minority ... as a consequence the USA is Mexican.



Here is a thought, how many minutes do you think the "Greek" civil war would have lasted if there was no importation of the christian former Turkish nationals of the 1920's?