Priscus at the court of Attila the Huns

[Onur]

Originally Posted by indigen

How much Macedonian blood and heritage do you think we can apportion to modern day Turks of Turkey? :-)

Heritage yes, but blood, i don't know and i already don't care about this blood connection stuff like i indicated several times b4. Thats not my concern either but it`s apparently yours since you are the one who keep writing things like Turko-Mongol, Bulgaro-Tatar, Turko-Bulgar etc. in your messages.

So, i wish you very best of luck in your quest of guessing the nationality of blood in people`s veins since you`ll need that for sure.

[indigen]

Originally Posted by Onur

Heritage yes, but blood, i don't know and i already don't care about this blood connection stuff like i indicated several times b4.

So, i wish you very best of luck in your quest of guessing the nationality of blood in people`s veins since you`ll need that for sure.

Why not blood, Onur? Genetic studies, if if recollect rightly, identifies that Balkan (Macedonian Peninsula), especially Macedonians, and Anatolian populations do share a lot of DNA markers and tend to cluster together closely. Phrygians (Brigi), Paeonian, Thracians and other populations resided on both sides and Macedonians ruled the area for centuries. Then there is the case/possibility of lots of Macedonian muslim converts moving to Turkey at various times during Ottoman rule and most definitely masses of them post 1912-13 period. Lets leave it at that for a starting point.

Thats not my concern either but it`s apparently yours since you are the one who keep writing things like Turko-Mongol, Bulgaro-Tatar, Turko-Bulgar etc. in your messages.

Just because, for whatever reasons, you wish to deny that the original Turko-Mongol race was Asian, akin to Mongolians of today, does not mean we have to buy into your ambit theories (not officially sanctioned even in Turkey) and stop using the facts against Bulgar/Bulgaroman anti-Macedonian propaganda. The fact that the Turko-Mongol Bulgars ("Proto-Bulgars") are of Mongol(oid) (Asian) stock is a very strong ideological weapon to use against anti-Macedonian Bulgar/oman propaganda and your objections will not be countenanced at all because it will mean to disarm ourselves in the face of a fierce enemy of our very existence.

[Ottoman]

Todays Mongols in Mongolia are called Khalkha-Mongols, they have no connection with Turks and cant speak Turkic language.

The country Mongolia is named after the Mongols of the 12th century, these Mongols were mostly Turkic tribes.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by indigen

Why not blood, Onur? Genetic studies, if if recollect rightly, identifies that Balkan (Macedonian Peninsula), especially Macedonians, and Anatolian populations do share a lot of DNA markers and tend to cluster together closely. Phrygians (Brigi), Paeonian, Thracians and other populations resided on both sides and Macedonians ruled the area for centuries. Then there is the case/possibility of lots of Macedonian muslim converts moving to Turkey at various times during Ottoman rule and most definitely masses of them post 1912-13 period. Lets leave it at that for a starting point.

I didn't say "not Blood". I said i don't know and it`s practically impossible to find out to what extent.

Yes, people moved between Anatolia and Balkans, i already know this since my family was one of them. I can ask same question to you then. Can you say how much Turkish blood your people have? Probably you will say zero since you think that all Turks are mongolic people and if you don't look like present day mongolians, then you are no Turk by blood, sigh... So, this "blood connection" argument with you becomes pointless.

Just because, for whatever reasons, you wish to deny that the original Turko-Mongol race was Asian, akin to Mongolians of today, does not mean we have to buy into your ambit theories (not officially sanctioned even in Turkey) and stop using the facts against Bulgar/Bulgaroman anti-Macedonian propaganda. The fact that the Turko-Mongol Bulgars ("Proto-Bulgars") are of Mongol(oid) (Asian) stock is a very strong ideological weapon to use against anti-Macedonian Bulgar/oman propaganda and your objections will not be countenanced at all because it will mean to disarm ourselves in the face of a fierce enemy of our very existence.

I don't deny that we were Asians. Yes we came from central Asia but i refuse that all the Turks was mongolic people. You should stop thinking that everyone who came from Asia was only mongols. This ideology of yours is plain stupid. Estonians, Hungarians are Asian latecomers like us too and most of Germanic people(Germans, Austrians, Dutch, Saxons etc.) migrated from Eurasia too in the era of Great migration. About 200-600 years b4 Hungarians, Turks came to Europe. So, why don't you apply same ideology for the Germanic people who came from northern side of Blacksea? According to you, they should be mongolic people too since they migrated from Asia again.

Dont you know that the white race are believed to be came from Caucasus? and thats why we call white people as Caucasian today. Indigen, you should consider(or learn) the fact that the mongolic people was a very small minority in central and Eurasia among some Germanic, Slavic and Turkic people about 1000+ years ago. These three tribes was already descendants of the tribal union called Scythians. Central Asia became mongoloid only after the Genghis Khan era and it`s not fully mongolic today either. For example, mongoloids among the people of Turkic states today are not more than 30-35%.

P. S: I think i`ve never said that here b4 but I believe the ancient Macedonians might be related with Scythians of Euroasia too. They maybe migrated to Balkans from the north of Blacksea like the other Scythian groups after them. So, maybe the ancient Macedonians was the first Scythian group to be called as "barbarians" by the Greeks and Romans. This is my own theory tough, not something i`ve read b4 and i don't think it`s something impossible since i don't think ancient Macedonians was mediterranean people like the Greeks and others. I believe, what Alexander did was something too ambitious for the mellow and sedentary people of mediterranean like the ancient Greeks. It was something can be done by Scythians like the Attila did the same 600 years after Alexander.

[Sovius]

Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people

Christine Keyser, Caroline Bouakaze, Eric Crubézy, Valery G. Nikolaev, Daniel Montagnon, Tatiana Reis and Bertrand Ludes

Abstract

To help unravel some of the early Eurasian steppe migration movements, we determined the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the fourth century AD. In order to go further in the search of the geographic origin and physical traits of these south Siberian specimens, we also typed phenotype-informative single nucleotide polymorphisms. Our autosomal, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA analyses reveal that whereas few specimens seem to be related matrilineally or patrilineally, nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans. Our results also confirm that at the Bronze and Iron Ages, south Siberia was a region of overwhelmingly predominant European settlement, suggesting an eastward migration of Kurgan people across the Russo-Kazakh steppe. Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people and that they might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization. To the best of our knowledge, no equivalent molecular analysis has been undertaken so far.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/...f7fc84a62&pi=0

We now know exactly who the Scythians were and where they came from. Even during the Renaissance Period, the Cossacks still wore their hair rounded on their heads like horse tails. The figure that came to be known in the Western European historical narrative as Atilla the Hun was a Cossack. He rode his horse like a Cossack and kicked the living crap out of people like a Cossack. He was given a Cossack burial and his people held a big funeral feast known as a strava for him when he kicked the bucket.

People defined by R1a1 Y-DNA originally came from somewhere in and around Macedonia and other regions in Southeastern Europe where many people continue to be defined by R1a Y-DNA.

Assumptions and augmentations are the foundation of fiction, not historical scholarship. There appear to be at least two layers to all this Germanic revisionism that seem to keep “traditionalists” thinking along the path of a closed loop that never leads anyone anywhere.

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Sovius

We now know exactly who the Scythians were and where they came from. Even during the Renaissance Period, the Cossacks still wore their hair rounded on their heads like horse tails. The figure that came to be known in the Western European historical narrative as Atilla the Hun was a Cossack.

You cannot define a single ethnicity for the Scythians especially not a small populated group like Cossacks. Scythians was a general term for all horse riding, semi-nomadic tribes of Eurasia who had a kurgan culture and used runic script `till they adopted Abrahamic religions. If you specifically look for who was Attila, watch the documentary in this thread by British scholar. It`s commonly agreed that Attila was speaking Turkic just like the most populated tribe among the Huns was Turkic people again(incl. Avars, Oghuz, Bulgars, Khazars etc). We know that from the names of the tribes of Hunnic Empire, written in a medieval codex named Isfahan. Most tribal names are in Turkic.

Btw, i gotta remind you that both the words "Kurgan" and "Cossacks" are old Turkic. Ask google if you don't believe me, you will find some books and sources for the etymologies and explanation of them .

Originally Posted by indigen

Dimiter Markovski:
"Khan Asparouh's Bulgaro-Turks"

"The year 681 accepted as Year One of Bulgaria's history."

"...Banner of the Proto-Bulgarian troops consisted of horse's tail
attached to a spear..."

Here is more about that banner;

Turkic Flags and Other Identifiers


Tamga

A tamga, or tamgha (Modern Turkish: damga) is an abstract seal or device used by Eurasian nomadic peoples and by cultures influenced by them. The tamga was normally the emblem of a particular tribe, clan or family. They were common among the Scythians, Sarmatians, all Turkic peoples, including Khazars and Uigurs, and Alans. Neighboring sedentary people sometimes adopted tamga-like symbols; for example, the stylized trident tamga, or seal were used by various peoples of Eastern Europe and Asia: Kushans, Rus', Khazars, Kipchaks, Mongols, Tatars, Lithuanians and Poles.

"The complex system of Turkish tribal tamghas included animals, tridents and various other symbols, though it is possible that the trident itself was a very simplified bow and arrow. It certainly became a military symbol among the Mongols in the 13th and 14th centuries."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook*)


The Windsock Banner

"...The so-called 'dragon' form of wind-sock banner came into widespread use in 4th-century Roman armies. It was closely associated with achery, as it had been among the people of the steppes, and was used as late as the 12th century..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

The illustration below, shows Charlemagne's Windsock banner. The Franks were strongly influenced by, and even related to the Avars (Childeric's burial with his horses is one illustration of such early Steppes influence). Charlemagne's mother was an Avar princess and he eventually took control in Pannonia (later a major Bulgar and Magyar center). (Norman Finkelshteyn)



"...the so-called 'trousers'-shaped banner of Salah al-Din's nephew Taqi al-Din might have been a windsock banner used by archers of recent Central Asian origin."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)



Flags and Pennons

"In addition to their famous horse-tail standards, the Turks used tos (totemic ensigns) and batraq or beyraq (individual flags or pennons). The latter was originally attached to a spear shaft and would later be known in Othmanli (Ottoman) Turkish as a sanjaq.
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)


[In late Roman and early Romano-Byzantine armies, the earlier] "...vexullum form of banner which hung vertically... was gradually replaced by the bandon hung horizontally and may have reflected Germanic or Avar military influence..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

[In the Sassanian Empire] "the terms used for military units and their associated banners was often the same ...the large drafsh or dirafsh unit and its flag, and the small vasht unit and flag. Ordinary flags were shaped like streamers or banderoles whereas the great state banner of the Sassanian Empire ...Drafsh-i Kavyan 'Banner of Kavagh' ...consisted of a decorated leather sheet, seven metres long and five across, encrusted with precious stones, yellow, red and purple brocade, surmounted by a golden sphere or crescent and festooned with streamers."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook) (this banner was said to have been the Apron of the smith Kave - who led the ancient Iranians in establishing themselves)

"Byzantine, western European, native Slav and various steppe fashions contributed to the flags, banners and heraldic motifs of medieval Russia..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"...Christian Georgia ...basically Byzantine forms of flag and shield patterns were also amalgamated with powerful Islamic and Persian influence. For example the late 12th--early 13th-century Georgian alami was a large red-and-black royal banner, and the drosha was a long streamer-like flag sometimes used aboard ship."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

[In the Muslim world] "flags came back strongly under the Umayyads. By the 13th century manuscript illustrations showed various types, including a slender form possibly resulting from Turkish or Chinese influence..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)


Tugh - Animal Hair Banner

"...in Central Asia, the tug (horse-tail banner) also used yak and big-cat tails; five, seven or nine being reserved for a ruler or subordinate khan during the pre-Islamic period. Smaller tugs were also attached to war-drums."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"...the Central Asian tug or yak-tailed pennant entered the Middle East with various waves of Turkish nomads and soldiers. The number of tails indicated rank, and although this device had pagan origins it continued to be used by many Turco-Muslim armies such as that of the Ottoman Empire where... [it] was called tugh. Here six tails were reserved for the Sultan, lesser numbers being used by senior officers. Variations on the tugh were seen in post-Mongol Iran where it was sometimes combined with an ordinary flag, and also among various Anatolian dervish brotherhoods where very simple forms of tugh had tufts of wool instead of animals' tails..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)


Images of Animals

"...Animals and birds were important warrior motifs in the earlier centuries, often appearing on helmets in Central Asian wall-paintings; gilded wolf's head-shaped standards were reserved for the supreme khagan or khan of khans. Genghis Khan used a bird's head emblem, and Hulegu is said to have had an 'eagle banner'. There are also references to human as well as animal-shaped helmet crests in Mongol epics."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"...Surprisingly, perhaps, the double-headed eagle, which became the most important late Byzantine imperial device, was of ancient oriental origin rather than having much connection with the ancient Roman imperial eagle..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"The double-headed eagle had been a popular pattern on Islamic fabrics since the 10th century and was adopted as an identifying motif by the Turkish rulers of Anatolia and the Middle East from the late 11th century onwards..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"...lions and leopards are also mentioned as banner devices in late 10th-century Persian literature..."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)

"Chinese-looking dragons were introduced to the Middle East by the Turks."
(Nicolle, Sourcebook)


"Medieval warfare source book: Christian Europe and its neighbours" by David Nicolle, Brockhampton press,1998.

http://books.google.com/books?id=adoAAAAACAAJ

The illustration below, shows Charlemagne's Windsock banner. The Franks were strongly influenced by, and even related to the Avars (Childeric's burial with his horses is one illustration of such early Steppes influence). Charlemagne's mother was an Avar princess...

Ohhh, Franks used a similar banner too and apparently Charlemagne`s mother was a Turko-Mongol woman from Avars!!! Or maybe Franks was an Asian mongols too, indigen?

[Serdarot]

Originally Posted by Onur

An interesting documentary about the Huns and other European Germanic tribes by Discovery Channel;

wow...

how come the Asiatic Tribes (Huns) became Germanic?

wow...

after changing "indo-european" with "indo-germanic"...

and after the graeko-bulgarian myths

this is the most funny history re-re-re-visi-(goth)-ted

i might understood it wrong, pls say i understood it wrong (i tooked some strong painkiller, might be i am understanding it wrong ^^ )

[Sovius]

You cannot define a single ethnicity for the Scythians especially not a small populated group like Cossacks. Scythians was a general term for all horse riding, semi-nomadic tribes of Eurasia who had a kurgan culture and used runic script `till they adopted Abrahamic religions.

If this is the case then you should be able to provide evidence demonstrating your position. What anthropological evidence or historical passage demonstrates that the term Scythians was used for all Eurasian populations beyond the Roman frontier and not a specific population of people whose presence in this same region was observed since before the rise of the Macedonian Empire by Hellenic writers? Could it be your mistaking Altaic language speaking troops that may have possibly fought under Attila for actual Scythians?

If you specifically look for who was Attila, watch the documentary in this thread by British scholar.

I think I would much rather like to watch a documentary about Attila made by a Ukrainian or Russian scholar who actually knew what he or she was talking about.

It`s commonly agreed that Attila was speaking Turkic just like the most populated tribe among the Huns was Turkic people again(incl. Avars, Oghuz, Bulgars, Khazars etc). We know that from the names of the tribes of Hunnic Empire, written in a medieval codex named Isfahan. Most tribal names are in Turkic.

You mean it is commonly agreed among Western European historical revisionists that Attila was speaking Turkic. The names of many peoples and places have been Grecianized, Latinized and even Hungarianized throughout history. These intra-cultural adaptions do not equate to actual ethnic transformations in relation to the reality of the historical period in question.

Btw, i gotta remind you that both the words "Kurgan" and "Cossacks" are old Turkic. Ask google if you don't believe me, you will find some books and sources for the etymologies and explanation of them .

Please present evidence that demonstrates that the Scythians referred to what you call kurgans as kurgans. What ancient text contains a passage that states, “I’m a Scythian and we call our burial mounds kurgans”? This line of reasoning is an excellent example of the effects of anachronistic revisionism on scholarship. Its faulty logic. We know what they referred to Attila’s going away party as and it was recorded by an eyewitness. What is the quality of the evidence that you are basing your belief that Attila was Turkic on and what is the state of this supposed evidence?

[Ottoman]

Originally Posted by Serdarot

wow...

how come the Asiatic Tribes (Huns) became Germanic?

wow...

after changing "indo-european" with "indo-germanic"...

and after the graeko-bulgarian myths

this is the most funny history re-re-re-visi-(goth)-ted

i might understood it wrong, pls say i understood it wrong (i tooked some strong painkiller, might be i am understanding it wrong ^^ )

The Huns were in Europe for almost a century, surely they do got mixed.

[indigen]

Originally Posted by Ottoman

The Huns were in Europe for almost a century, surely they do got mixed.

How about Kemal Attatur's bloodline, do you think it got mixed and to what extent if it did? :-)