Priscus at the court of Attila the Huns

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    #31
    Originally posted by Ottoman View Post
    It isnt related, I said it so you can maybe discover your own bloodline, not every Macedonian is pure you know, like Onur said, we Turks dont care about bloodline, we all consider ourselves as Turks just like everyone in the Ottoman Empire considered theirselves as Ottomans.
    I can trace back 3 generations Macedonians both sides of my family (paternal and maternal) and don't need any "discovery" of my bloodline because I know who I am - Indigenous Macedonian! Who says Macedonians are "pure" anything? Please don't invent such nonsense and stick to facts here on MTO. We (some of us, IMO, the more enlightened ones!) say we are predominantly of indigenous stock and I have yet to see/hear anyone claim "pure" anything.


    Im just telling you facts, Kemals bloodline is Turkmen he is not mixed,
    the Huns who came to Europe do got mixed.
    Perhaps the people who claim Kemal as a Macedonian can challenge your claims but Kemall did not look like a typical "Turkmen" to me.


    Mustafa Kemal, the blue-eyed "pure Turkmen"?



    Seljuk Warrior


    Seljuk Warrior


    Seljuk Turk Empire circa 1100 AD


    for example Attila himself was a pure Turk
    And what did the "pure" Turk like Attila look like back then?

    but still the first Huns who came to Europe were Turkic peoples from the east.
    And what did they look like, Caucasian or Mongoloid/Asian?
    Last edited by indigen; 12-12-2010, 03:24 AM.

    Comment

    • Onur
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2010
      • 2389

      #32
      You are polluting the thread with stupid stuff like linking cartoon like representative pictures of 11th century men and comparing those with a real picture of 20th century man in a tuxedo suit!!! Besides that, can you name a single society who looks exacts same as in 1000 years before now? maybe only Australian aborigines and some african tribes but not others.

      Indegen, are you aware that you are acting like a 14 year old internet warrior? OR you are really one of them?



      Originally posted by indigen View Post
      And what did the "pure" Turk like Attila look like back then?


      And what did they look like, Caucasian or Mongoloid/Asian?
      We know that how Khazar Turks, descendants of Huns looked like from Arab, Jewish, Chinese and Roman records of 8-9thh century;

      ...
      This peculiar and obscure race inhabiting that land were described as blue-eyed and of very fair complexion. Commonly they had long reddish hair and were reported as very large of stature and fierce of countenance. [11] Other sources have added observations that there were "Black Khazars" and "White Khazars," noting that the latter were "light-skinned and handsome, while the former were dark-skinned." This has, however, been rather conclusively refuted by scholars who have established that the distinction was not racial but social. The "Black" or "Kara" Khazars constituted the lower strata or caste, while the "White" or "Ak" Khazars were of the noble or royal classes. This type of class distinction was fairly common in Eastern Europe as evidenced by the more commonly known terms "Black Russian" and "White Russian," denoting not skin color but class. 12

      In his book An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples, Peter Golden claims that the Chinese T'and-shu chronicle describes the Khazars, generally, as "...tall, with red-hair, ruddy-faced and blue-eyed. Black hair is considered a bad omen." 13

      11. Brook, The Jews of Khazaria, p. 3.
      12. Brook, The Jews of Khazaria, p. 4.
      13. Peter B. Golden, An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples, Wiesbaden, Germany, 1992.

      http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/library/khazars.html
      So, if we look at the medieval sources rather than your cartoons, thats how they describe Khazars.

      Also here is another interesting fact about Khazars;

      ...
      Shortly after the death of Mohammed in AD 632, according to Columbia University Professor, D. M. Dunlop, Arab armies began a campaign northward, sweeping "through the wreckage of two empires and carrying all before them till they reached the great mountain barrier of the Caucasus. This barrier once passed," Dunlop observes, "the road lay open to the lands of eastern Europe." [2] Had the Caliphate (the armies of the Muslim Caliph) surmounted that immense geological deterrent unchallenged, the history of Europe and, indeed, the rest of the Judeo-Christian world would have been vastly different than it now is.

      It was at the Caucasus, however, that the Arabs encountered the Khazars, initiating a war that lasted over a century and effectively prevented Europe from becoming Islamic. So powerful, socially and militarily, were the Khazars that, as Kevin Alan Brook relates in his work The Jews of Khazaria, "a 10th-century emperor of the Byzantines [Roman Empire], Constantine Porphyrogenitus, sent correspondence to the Khazars marked with a gold seal worth 3 solidi - more than the 2 solidi that always accompanied letters to the Pope of Rome, the Prince of the Rus, and the Prince of the Hungarians." [3]

      Rutgers University Professor Peter Golden, referred to by Brook as "one of the principal authorities on the Khazars," wrote, "Every schoolchild in the West has been told that if not for Charles Martel and the battle of Poitiers there might be a mosque where Notre Dame now stands. What few schoolchildren are aware of," Golden emphasizes, "is that if not for the Khazars...Eastern Europe might well have become a province of Islam." [4]

      The Khazarian mounted forces, with a soldiery of mainly Turkic and pagan origin, could at times and when accounted for, show a disastrous fierceness and cruelty to the enemies of Khazaria. They were also probably the most disciplined, as well as tactically and strategically the most potent, martial power at that time and in that region. Evidence that they were supremely calculating in their approach to international matters lay in the fact that, in contrast to their brutality, Khazar officials were often consulted as diplomatic emissaries and mediators by all the political powers surrounding Khazaria. The Khazars and their empire were at that time both highly respected and greatly feared -- with good reason. [5]
      ...

      2. Dunlop, D. M., The History of the Jewish Khazars, Princeton University Press, 1954
      3. Brook, Kevin Alan, The Jews of Khazaria, Jason Aronson, Inc. Northvale, NJ, Jerusalem, 1999.
      4. Peter B. Golden, Khazar Studies, vol. 1 (Budapest: Akademiai, 1980), pp. 55-56.
      5. Brook, The Jews of Khazaria
      As you can see, it was the Khazar Turks who stopped Arabs and eventually prevented whole eastern Europe to become islamized by sword because as you can guess, there was no other obstacle for the Arabs who controlled Spain and whole middle-east at that era. Arabs conquered everywhere including Spain `till they encounter with the Turks in eastern Anatolia.





      Also at later times in 12th century, the Cumans who were formerly a part of Khazar Empire exactly described as Khazars b4;

      The Cumans (Greek: Κο(υ)μάνοι, Ko(u)manoi;[1] Hungarian: kun / plural kunok;[2] Turkic: kuman / plural kumanlar[3], Russian: Половцы - Polovtsi) were a Turkic[2][4] nomadic people who inhabited a shifting area north of the Black Sea known as Cumania along the Volga River.

      A variety of sources from different countries (such as Germany, Hungary and Russia) explain that the different names for the Cumans may all refer to the meaning 'blond', 'sallow' and 'yellow' in reference to the color of the Kumans' hair. The Russian word 'Polovtsy'(Пóловцы) means "blond", since the old Russian word "polovo" means "straw". Another explanation was given by O. Suleymenov as "men of the field, steppe" from the Russian word "pole" - open ground, field, not to be confused with "polyane" (cf. Greek "polis" - city). A third explanation of the word was also made by O. Suleymenov which stated that the name "polovtsy" came from a word for "blue-eyed," since the Serbo-Croatian word "plav" literally means "blue"[10] The German word for Cumans was 'Folban' which also means blond.

      The Cuman language is attested in some medieval documents and is the best-known of the early Turkic languages.[6]

      Thats what medieval documents says but ofc not all Turks was blondish. There was brown haired and eyed ones too since Turks was never homogeneous throughout history but it was rather an unity of various people who speaks Uralic-Altaic languages.

      And as you can read here, blond haired and blue/green eyed Cuman Turks left us one of the most important work of Turkic language in 12th century. A collection of Turkic riddles, sample sentences for conversation in Turkic and a dictionary with a total of 4500 Turkic words.



      This is an excerpt from the book of blondish Cumans of 12th century;

      Cuman Turkic;
      Atamız kim köktesiñ. Alğışlı bolsun seniñ atıñ, kelsin seniñ xanlığıñ, bolsun seniñ tilemekiñ – neçikkim kökte, alay [da] yerde. Kündeki ötmegimizni bizge bugün bergil. Dağı yazuqlarımıznı bizge boşatqıl – neçik biz boşatırbiz bizge yaman etkenlerge. Dağı yekniñ sınamaqına bizni quurmağıl. Basa barça yamandan bizni qutxarğıl. Amen!

      In modern Turkish, the text is:
      Atamız sen göktesin. Alkışlı olsun senin adın, gelsin senin hanlığın, olsun senin dileğin– nasıl ki gökte, ve yerde. Gündelik ekmeğimizi bize bugün ver. Ve de yazıklarımızdan (suçlarımızdan) bizi bağışla– nasıl biz bağışlarız bize yaman (kötülük) edenleri. Ve de şeytanın sınamasından bizi koru. Tüm yamandan (kötülükten) bizi kurtar. Amin!

      In English, the text is:
      Our Father which art in heaven. Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have done us evil. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. Amen.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Cumanicus

      And this is from the Orkhon monuments of 8th century;
      Originally posted by Onur View Post
      Now look at this;

      Turkic runic script on top and exact same sentence with Latin script at the bottom of the picture.


      Modern Turkish version: Türk Oğuz beyleri, kavmi, işitin!; üstte gök(Tengri, Tanrı) bastırmazsa, altta yer delinmezse, Türk kavminin ilini, töresini kim bozabilir?

      English Translation: Türk Oghuz chieftains, clans, listen!; If the sky(Sky is also God) above doesn't crush, if the ground below doesn't get punctured, who can ever destroy the land and law of the Turk(ic) people?


      This sentence is just a small excerpt from Turkic Orkhon monuments written in 732 AD and even in this small sentence, not only they express their ethnicity, i can even sense nationalistic expression and thoughts, am i wrong?


      I say again for the last time; I don't care what is the bloodline of Turks as long as they spoke my language and exhibit my culture. And who can dare to question the ethnicity of people who wrote this sentence 1300 years ago?;
      Türk Oghuz chieftains, clans, listen!; If the sky(Sky is also God) above doesn't crush, if the ground below doesn't get punctured, who can ever destroy the land and law of the Turk(ic) people?
      Same thing applies for questioning the bloodline of Atatürk.
      Last edited by Onur; 12-12-2010, 01:37 PM.

      Comment

      • julie
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 3869

        #33
        Atatürk. The man that cried with the partitioning of Macedonia

        blonde hair, bright blue eyes, fair skinned.
        claims of pure Turk are unfounded.
        Very Macedonian features as well, the evidence is in the photograph Indigen has posted.
        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

        Comment

        • indigen
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 1558

          #34
          Originally posted by julie View Post
          Atatürk. The man that cried with the partitioning of Macedonia

          blonde hair, bright blue eyes, fair skinned.
          claims of pure Turk are unfounded.
          Very Macedonian features as well, the evidence is in the photograph Indigen has posted.
          Those images of Seljuk Turks come from, IMO, quite reputable source books. The following are two books I owned but have no longer in my possession and they appeared to be a very good source for images (one of which is a reproduction from a fresco of Vasil II Makedonski - with his bright blue eyes - and casting into doubt his supposed "Armenian" bloodline!):

          Byzantine Armies 886–1118

          Men-at-Arms 287
          Author: Ian Heath
          Illustrator: Angus McBride
          About this book
          The Byzantine Empire's disastrous defeat by the Seljuk Turks at Manzikert in 1071 effectively marked the end of what is often described as the 'middle' period of Byzantine history. Thereafter, surrounded on all sides by younger, more vigorous nations, the once all-powerful Empire slipped into a steady decline which, ultimately, was to prove terminal. However, the Empire's demise was anything but peaceful, and, one way or another, for much of the last four centuries of its existence it was to find itself in a state of virtually constant war. This book examines the fascinating history of the Byzantine Empire and its armies from 1118-1461 AD.
          Contents
          Introduction · Military Chronology · The Byzantine Armed Forces 1118-1453 · 'Soldiers Hired Amongst All Nations' · The End of the Empire · The Empire of Trebizond · The Plates
          Paperback; November 1995; 48 pages; ISBN: 9781855323476
          Sorry, we couldn't find that page. Please visit our homepage https://ospreypublishing.com


          Byzantine Armies 886–1118


          Men-at-Arms 89
          Author: Ian Heath
          Illustrator: Angus McBride
          About this book
          The Byzantines had a remarkably sophisticated approach to politics and military strategy. Unlike most of their contemporaries, they learnt very early in their history that winning a battle did not necessarily win a war, and they frequently bought off their enemies with treaties and bribes rather than squander men and matériel in potentially fruitless campaigns. The Byzantine army of the 10th and early 11th centuries, at the height of its power and efficiency, was the best-organised, best-trained, best-equipped and highest-paid in the known world. This splendid book by Ian Heath examines the Byzantine Armies from 886-1118, including the lusty, hard-fighting, hard-drinking 'barbarian' Varangian guard.
          Contents
          Introduction · Organization · The Tagmata · The Varangian Guard · The Theme System · The Terrible Day: Manzikert 1071 · The Post-Manzikurt Period · The Plates
          Paperback; July 1979; 48 pages; ISBN: 9780850453065

          Sorry, we couldn't find that page. Please visit our homepage https://ospreypublishing.com

          Comment

          • indigen
            Senior Member
            • May 2009
            • 1558

            #35
            Originally posted by Onur View Post
            [FONT="Verdana"]You are polluting the thread with stupid stuff like linking cartoon like representative pictures of 11th century men and comparing those with a real picture of 20th century man in a tuxedo suit!!! Besides that, can you name a single society who looks exacts same as in 1000 years before now? maybe only Australian aborigines and some african tribes but not others.
            Those images are from reputable sources very well respected for the images they produce, more so than their interpretations of the historical periods they cover, and your comments are like the pot calling someone else black. IMO, pollution on a Macedonian forum is when a Macedonian visits here and sees that a non Macedonian has posted in every (or nearly every) forum topic category at about the same time or that a non-Macedonian continually hogs the limelight of a forum category. But all that is just my opinion.

            Indigen, are you aware that you are acting like a 14 year old internet warrior? OR you are really one of them?
            Pot calling someone else black and especially when they are losing the plot!

            So, if we look at the medieval sources rather than your cartoons, that's how they describe Khazars.
            I told you before, you have a dismissive excuse for anything that does not fit your world-view of white Caucasian (and linguistically related to Sumerian) Turks and you are as stubborn as any Greek or Bulgarian nationalist.

            ---------

            Jordanes' description of the Huns, Brothers of the Bulgars:

            "...a stunted, foul and puny tribe, scarcely human, and having no language
            save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech. Such was the
            descent of the Huns...

            ...This cruel tribe, as Priscus the historian relates, settled on the
            farther bank of the Maeotic swamp. They were fond of hunting and had
            no skill in any other art. After they had grown to a nation, they disturbed
            the peace of neighboring races by theft and rapine...

            ...Now in my opinion the evil spirits, from whom the Huns are descended...

            ...As many as they captured, when they thus entered Scythia for the first
            time, they sacrificed to Victory. The remainder they conquered and made
            subject to themselves. (126) Like a whirlwind of nations they swept across
            the great swamp and at once fell upon the Alpidzuri, Alcildzuri, Itimari,
            Tuncarsi and Boisci, who bordered on that part of Scythia. The Alani also,
            who were their equals in battle, but unlike them in civilization, manners
            and appearance, they exhausted by their incessant attacks and subdued. (127)
            For by the terror of their features they inspired great fear in those whom
            perhaps they did not really surpass in war...

            THEIR FEATURES WERE:

            "...They made their foes flee in horror because THEIR SWARTHY ASPECT WAS
            FEARFUL, and they had, if I may call it so, a sort of shapeless lump, not a
            head, with pin-holes rather than eyes. Their hardihood is evident in their
            wild appearance, and they are beings who are cruel to their children on the
            very day they are born. For they cut the cheeks of the males with a sword,
            so that before they receive the nourishment of milk they must learn to
            endure wounds. (128) Hence they grow old beardless and their young men are
            without comeliness, because a face furrowed by the sword spoils by its scars
            the natural beauty of a beard. They are short in stature, quick in bodily
            movement, alert horsemen, broad shouldered, ready in the use of bow and
            arrow, and have firm-set necks which are ever erect in pride. Though they
            live in the form of men, they have the cruelty of wild beasts...."

            ----------------------------

            Oxford Bulgar Historian Stefan Nikolov:
            "...And the Avars WERE "Mongoloide" for sure, believe me...."

            Bozhidar Dimitrov:
            "...Bulgarians belong to the same ethnolingual group as the Huns, the Avars,
            the Pechenegs and the Cumans, i.e., the peoples, parts of which are to flow
            into the Bulgarian nation between the 7th and 14th centuries...."


            Dimiter Markovski:
            "Khan Asparouh's Bulgaro-Turks"


            "The year 681 accepted as Year One of Bulgaria's history."

            "...Banner of the Proto-Bulgarian troops consisted of horse's tail
            attached to a spear..."


            Jordanes description of Attila the Hun: "flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing evidence of his origin"

            Comment

            • indigen
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 1558

              #36
              Busting some myths about Kumans and Kumanovo

              Етимологија

              Според легендата името на населбата потекнува од името на воинственото племе Кумани кои во 1094 год. навлегле во овој крај и извесно време се задржале на територијата на денешна Кумановска општина и пошироко.Други претпоставки за името не постојат.

              Куманово во Cpeдeн Beк

              Главен водич бил Александар Македонски заедно се неговиот татко Филип Македонски. Се претпоставува дека Куманово било основано во XII век во близина на селото Жеглигово, со цел да го чува преминот меѓу реките Вардар и јужна Морава. Во 1519, во турските документи се спомнува како село во состав на Нагоричка нахија со 52 семејства и околу 300 жители. Како градска населба (касаба) се споменува во втората половина на XVII век. Се претпоставува дека населбата во овој период има слабо развиено стопанство. Тоа го потврдуваат и патеписните забелешки на Евлија Челебија од 1660, според кои населбата имала околу 600 куќи, џамија, медреса, хан, хамам и одреден број на дуќани. Градската населба, административен центар на нахијата, Куманово станува при крајот на XVI или почетокот на XVII век. Првите изворни податоци за населбата Куманово се споменуваат во 1519 година, од патеписните дефтери во архивот на Република Турција во Истанбул со 52 семејства и околу 300 жители. Најопширни и најзначајни податоци дава Евлија Челебија во 1660 година кој напишал: „Населбата Куманово се наоѓа на територијата на Скопскиот санџак и претставува еден војводлак. Градот е украсен со многу реки, закитен со 600 куќи, покриени со керамиди.“
              Raw Google translation:

              Etymology

              According to legend, the name of the settlement comes from the name of the warlike Kuman tribe, who in the year 1094 temporarily retreated to (entered in) this region and for some time sought refuge in what is now the municipality of Kumanovo and other areas (in the Balkans) There no other assumptions about the name there.

              Kumanovo in the Middle Ages

              The main guide was Alexander of Macedonia together with his father Philip of Macedon. It is assumed that Kumanovo was founded in XII century near the village Zhegligovo in order to keep the transition between the rivers Southern Morava and Vardar. In 1519, in Turkish documents mentioned as a village within the Nagorichka nahija with 52 families and 300 inhabitants. As urban settlement (Kasabov) are mentioned in the second half of XVII century. It is assumed that the settlement in this period is poorly developed economy. This is confirmed by observations of Evliya patepisnite Celebija of 1660, under which the settlement had about 600 houses, a mosque, madrassa, Khan, Ham, and a number of stores. City district, the administrative center of nahijata, Kumanovo it in the late XVI and early XVII century. The first data source for the settlement mentioned in Kumanovo in 1519, from patepisnite defters in the Archives of the Republic of Turkey in Istanbul with 52 families and 300 inhabitants. Najopshirni and most significant data gives Evliya Celebija in 1660 who wrote: "The settlement of Kumanovo is situated in the territory of Sandzak and Skopje is one vojvodlak. The city is decorated with many rivers, adorned with 600 houses, covered with tiles. "

              Comment

              • Onur
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 2389

                #37
                IMO, pollution on a Macedonian forum is when a Macedonian visits here and sees that a non Macedonian has posted in every (or nearly every) forum topic category at about the same time or that a non-Macedonian continually hogs the limelight of a forum category.
                I only post a comment for the stuff that i have opinion on it unlike you, just like in this thread. You don't know shit about this issue yet you act like you know.


                I already told you that only Priscus lived in the era of Attila and we can only trust his descriptions in my first post here. You don't know the situation of historiography after the fall of Roman Empire, you don't know how early christian Roman historians recorded the events, you have no idea about their intentions.... Yet you try to convince me with this;
                ...Now in my opinion the evil spirits, from whom the Huns are descended...(Jordanes)
                What you want me to say? Hungarians, Bulgars, Turks are descended from evil spirits!!!, are you happy now?





                Busting some myths about Kumans and Kumanovo
                You didn't bust for shit. What you are trying to do here is like if i would deny the role of Alexander the Great for the city of Iskenderun in today`s Turkey or Iskenderiye in Egypt.

                If Kumanovo in today`s Macedonia is not related with Cumans then explain to me why there are dozens of other cities, towns and villages with same name in Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece(i guess they renamed all)??? And why there are many people with the word Kuman in their family name in Bulgaria, Hungary, Turkey, Romania and probably in Macedonia too. There should be in Greece too but probably they forced people to change their family names too!!!

                Actually i am wasting time with you cuz obviously you are obsessive as well as ignorant but tell me why???
                Last edited by Onur; 12-14-2010, 10:29 AM.

                Comment

                • Ottoman
                  Banned
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 203

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Serres Macedonia View Post
                  Ottoman I think you contrudict yourself in relation to Kemals purity. Lets have a quick look at Kemal and Atila.
                  [ATTACH]41[/ATTACH]

                  [ATTACH]42[/ATTACH]

                  They look like they come from defferent tribes to me!!!!!!!!!!!!
                  Well I never said they came from the same tribe.

                  But both men were Turkic, thats just a fact.

                  Comment

                  • Ottoman
                    Banned
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 203

                    #39
                    Lol indigen you really think that a picture is proof for your claims?

                    Here is the real proof son.

                    "Efendiler, benim atalarım Anadolu'dan Rumeli'ye gelmiş Yörük Türkmenler'dendir "
                    M.Kemal Atatürk

                    "Gentlemen, my ancestors came from Anatolia to Rumelia and they are Turkmen Yörük "
                    M.Kemal Atatürk


                    and according to Falih Rıfkı Atay, Ali Rıza's roots have come from Söke in Aydın Province. His mother Zübeyde is thought to be of Turkish and according to Şevket Süreyya Aydemir, her roots have come from Turkoman (Türkmen) and in his family, there was roumor that they have come of Yörük.
                    Last edited by Ottoman; 12-25-2010, 06:27 AM.

                    Comment

                    • indigen
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 1558

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Onur View Post
                      I only post a comment for the stuff that i have opinion on it unlike you, just like in this thread. You don't know shit about this issue yet you act like you know.
                      Your tone is arrogant and rude! I am a Macedonian on a Macedonian forum and I am being very reasonable with you despite your insults and nasty tone towards me and I don't know how long that is going to last if you keep going this way.

                      I already told you that only Priscus lived in the era of Attila
                      Are you saying that only Priscus matters in relation to Attila and the Huns? What about Alexander III of Macedon? What sources do we have from authors that lived in his time?

                      Is Jordanes not the only historical source that provides a physical description of Attila? Do YOU not discount the mainstream academia that says the Huns and related Turkic peoples were originally of Mognoloid/Asian racial type and accuse me of being ignorant? You also ignore the fact that there are physical skeletal remains that confirm the Mongoloid racial type found in burial sites in Bulgaria and other countries.

                      Racial type and descendants


                      Victorious Bulgar warrior with captive, featured on a ewer from the Treasure of Nagyszentmiklos

                      Ascertaining the origin and the language of the Bulgars has been the subject of debate since the turn of the 20th century. The current leading theory[21] is that at least the Bulgar elite spoke a language that, alongside Khazar and Chuvash, was a member of the Oghuric branch of the Turkic language family.[22][23][24][25] This theory is supported, among other things, by the fact that some Bulgar words contained in the few surviving stone inscriptions[26] and in other documents (mainly military and hierarchical terms such as tarkan, bagatur, and probably khan and kanartikin - "prince", - appear to be of Turkic origin and written in Kuban alphabet of the Old Turkic script. Furthermore the Bulgar calendar had a 12 year cycle similar to the one adopted by Turkic and Mongolian peoples from the Chinese, with names and numbers that are deciphered as Turkic, and that the Bulgars' supreme god was apparently called Tangra, a deity widely known among the Turkic peoples under names such as Tengri, Tura etc.[27]

                      [….]

                      "Further evidence culturally linking the Danubian Bulgar state to Turkic steppe traditions was the layout of the Bulgars' new capital of Pliska, founded just north of the Balkan Mountains shortly after 681. The large area enclosed by ramparts, with the rulers' habitations and assorted utility structures concentrated in the center, resembled more a steppe winter encampment turned into a permanent settlement than it did a typical Roman Balkan city."[29]

                      Culture and society
                      Archaeological finds from the Ukrainian steppe suggest that the early Bulgars had the typical culture of the nomadic equestrians of Central Asia, who migrated seasonally in pursuit of pastures. From the 7th century, however they became a settled culture, planting crops, and mastering the crafts of blacksmithing, masonry, and carpentry.

                      and we can only trust his descriptions in my first post here.
                      Because you can see what you want to see in it!?

                      You don't know the situation of historiography after the fall of Roman Empire, you don't know how early christian Roman historians recorded the events, you have no idea about their intentions.... Yet you try to convince me with this;
                      And you do understand and the rest of academia does not? Yeah.....right, ONUR the genius knows it all and we must now bow to his superior Ottoman wisdom!? Hahaha...


                      What you want me to say? Hungarians, Bulgars, Turks are descended from evil spirits!!!, are you happy now?
                      Don't pull bits of text out on their own and out of context in order to make silly conclusions or points. One could do the same with nearly all ancient sources.

                      You didn't bust for shit. What you are trying to do here is like if i would deny the role of Alexander the Great for the city of Iskenderun in today`s Turkey or Iskenderiye in Egypt.
                      Don't talk nonsense, you foolish Turk! There was a village in the 16th century which had a population of 300 residents. The Cumans did not build any town there.

                      If Kumanovo in today`s Macedonia is not related with Cumans then explain to me why there are dozens of other cities, towns and villages with same name in Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece(i guess they renamed all)??? And why there are many people with the word Kuman in their family name in Bulgaria, Hungary, Turkey, Romania and probably in Macedonia too. There should be in Greece too but probably they forced people to change their family names too!!!
                      We are talking about Kumanovo and I posted how its name came about. For the other details on Cumans and what happened to them, you can do some of your own research for that. I do know that after their state collapsed a Cuman leader with a fairly large contingent (40k families or so) was invited by the King of Hungary to settle his people there.

                      Actually i am wasting time with you cuz obviously you are obsessive as well as ignorant but tell me why???
                      I think the pot is calling someone else black yet again!
                      This is the MTO and we need to look critically at claims of Caucasian (and Sumerian-speaking) Turko-Mongol Bulgars, Avars, Huns and other Turkic peoples for the reasons I have already pointed out previously.





                      Cuman Warrior

                      Mitochondrial DNA of ancient Cumanians: culturally Asian steppe nomadic immigrants with substantially more western Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages.

                      Bogácsi-Szabó E, Kalmár T, Csányi B, Tömöry G, Czibula A, Priskin K, Horváth F, Downes CS, Raskó I.

                      Institute of Genetics, Biological Research Center of Hungarian Academy of Sciences, PO Box 521, H-6701 Szeged, Hungary.
                      Abstract

                      The Cumanians were originally Asian pastoral nomads who in the 13th century migrated to Hungary. We have examined mitochondrial DNA from members of the earliest Cumanian population in Hungary from two archeologically well-documented excavations and from 74 modern Hungarians from different rural locations in Hungary. Haplogroups were defined based on HVS I sequences and examinations of haplogroup-associated polymorphic sites of the protein coding region and of HVS II. To exclude contamination, some ancient DNA samples were cloned. A database was created from previously published mtDNA HVS I sequences (representing 2,615 individuals from different Asian and European populations) and 74 modem Hungarian sequences from the present study. This database was used to determine the relationships between the ancient Cumanians, modern Hungarians, and Eurasian populations and to estimate the genetic distances between these populations. We attempted to deduce the genetic trace of the migration of Cumanians. This study is the first ancient DNA characterization of an eastern pastoral nomad population that migrated into Europe. The results indicate that, while still possessing a Central Asian steppe culture, the Cumanians received a large admixture of maternal genes from more westerly populations before arriving in Hungary. A similar dilution of genetic, but not cultural, factors may have accompanied the settlement of other Asian nomads in Europe.

                      PMID: 16596944 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
                      Our results suggest that the Cumanians, as seen in the excavation at Csengele, were far from genetic homogeneity. Nevertheless, the grave artifacts are typical of the Cumanian steppe culture; and five of the six skeletons that were complete enough for anthropometric analysis appeared Asian rather than European (Horváth 1978, 2001), including two from the mitochondrial haplogroup H, which is typically European. It is interesting that the only skeleton for which anthropological examination indicated a partly European ancestry was that of the chieftain, whose haplotype is most frequently found in the Balkans.

                      Source Link
                      Last edited by indigen; 12-16-2010, 12:15 AM.

                      Comment

                      • Ottoman
                        Banned
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 203

                        #41
                        You are not very reasonable, you are writing bullshit the whole time, whats your age, 8?

                        I totally agree with Onur, you cannot have a discussion with someone who believes in fairy tales.

                        Comment

                        • indigen
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 1558

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Ottoman View Post
                          It isnt related, I said it so you can maybe discover your own bloodline, not every Macedonian is pure you know, like Onur said, we Turks dont care about bloodline, we all consider ourselves as Turks just like everyone in the Ottoman Empire considered theirselves as Ottomans.
                          I can trace back 3 generations Macedonians both sides of my family (paternal and maternal) and don't need any "discovery" of my bloodline because I know who I am - Indigenous Macedonian! Who says Macedonians are "pure" anything? Please don't invent such nonsense and stick to facts here on MTO. We (some of us, IMO, the more enlightened ones!) say we are predominantly of indigenous stock and I have yet to see/hear anyone claim "pure" anything.


                          Im just telling you facts, Kemals bloodline is Turkmen he is not mixed,
                          the Huns who came to Europe do got mixed.
                          Perhaps the people who claim Kemal as a Macedonian can challenge your claims but Kemall did not look like a typical "Turkmen" to me.


                          Mustafa Kemal, the blue-eyed "pure Turkmen"?



                          Seljuk Warrior


                          Seljuk Warrior


                          Seljuk Turk Empire circa 1100 AD


                          for example Attila himself was a pure Turk
                          And what did the "pure" Turk like Attila look like back then?

                          but still the first Huns who came to Europe were Turkic peoples from the east.
                          And what did they look like, Caucasian or Mongoloid/Asian?

                          --------------

                          Originally posted by Ottoman View Post
                          You are not very reasonable, you are writing bullshit the whole time, whats your age, 8?
                          Cheap belittling snide remarks of someone having no facts to argue with and hoping no one will notice once the thread turns over onto a new page.

                          I totally agree with Onur, you cannot have a discussion with someone who believes in fairy tales.
                          As above and the pot calling someone else black is the case again! I am beginning to think you are just an alternate login for the same person!?



                          I stated the following on another thread and stand by it!:

                          Onur, you don't have much to stand on in respect of official Turkish and MAINSTREAM view regards the original homeland (Altai region of Mongolia) of the Turko-Mongol language bearers, i.e they were an Asiatic race akin to Mongols.

                          Secondly, if I were to accept your view (of which we are not clear on what it is) that it was not minority Turko-Mongol state forming elites that introduced Turkic languages into Anatolia (and elsewhere in Europe and Central Asia) but that it was the result of some HYPOTHETICAL CAUCASIAN Turko-speaking MASS INVASIONS (e.g. from "Pamir", as Petar Dobrev and Co would have us believe), I would have to give credence to the MASS "SLAV" invasion THEORY (HYPOTHESIS) of the Macedonian Peninsula (Balkans) unless we could "prove" that the Macedonic ("Slavonic") languages were native to Macedonia and the surrounding area/s. This I am NOT prepared to accept as language is NOT always a determinant for national identity or for indigenity.
                          -------------

                          Indigen, are you aware that you are acting like a 14 year old internet warrior? OR you are really one of them?
                          Pot calling someone else black and especially when they are losing the plot!

                          So, if we look at the medieval sources rather than your cartoons, that's how they describe Khazars.
                          I told you before, you have a dismissive excuse for anything that does not fit your world-view of white Caucasian (and linguistically related to Sumerian) Turks and you are as stubborn as any Greek or Bulgarian nationalist.

                          ---------

                          Jordanes' description of the Huns, Brothers of the Bulgars:

                          "...a stunted, foul and puny tribe, scarcely human, and having no language
                          save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech. Such was the
                          descent of the Huns...

                          ...This cruel tribe, as Priscus the historian relates, settled on the
                          farther bank of the Maeotic swamp. They were fond of hunting and had
                          no skill in any other art. After they had grown to a nation, they disturbed
                          the peace of neighboring races by theft and rapine...

                          ...Now in my opinion the evil spirits, from whom the Huns are descended...

                          ...As many as they captured, when they thus entered Scythia for the first
                          time, they sacrificed to Victory. The remainder they conquered and made
                          subject to themselves. (126) Like a whirlwind of nations they swept across
                          the great swamp and at once fell upon the Alpidzuri, Alcildzuri, Itimari,
                          Tuncarsi and Boisci, who bordered on that part of Scythia. The Alani also,
                          who were their equals in battle, but unlike them in civilization, manners
                          and appearance, they exhausted by their incessant attacks and subdued. (127)
                          For by the terror of their features they inspired great fear in those whom
                          perhaps they did not really surpass in war...

                          THEIR FEATURES WERE:

                          "...They made their foes flee in horror because THEIR SWARTHY ASPECT WAS
                          FEARFUL, and they had, if I may call it so, a sort of shapeless lump, not a
                          head, with pin-holes rather than eyes. Their hardihood is evident in their
                          wild appearance, and they are beings who are cruel to their children on the
                          very day they are born. For they cut the cheeks of the males with a sword,
                          so that before they receive the nourishment of milk they must learn to
                          endure wounds. (128) Hence they grow old beardless and their young men are
                          without comeliness, because a face furrowed by the sword spoils by its scars
                          the natural beauty of a beard. They are short in stature, quick in bodily
                          movement, alert horsemen, broad shouldered, ready in the use of bow and
                          arrow, and have firm-set necks which are ever erect in pride. Though they
                          live in the form of men, they have the cruelty of wild beasts...."

                          ----------------------------

                          Oxford Bulgar Historian Stefan Nikolov:
                          "...And the Avars WERE "Mongoloide" for sure, believe me...."

                          Bozhidar Dimitrov:
                          "...Bulgarians belong to the same ethnolingual group as the Huns, the Avars,
                          the Pechenegs and the Cumans, i.e., the peoples, parts of which are to flow
                          into the Bulgarian nation between the 7th and 14th centuries...."


                          Dimiter Markovski:
                          "Khan Asparouh's Bulgaro-Turks"


                          "The year 681 accepted as Year One of Bulgaria's history."

                          "...Banner of the Proto-Bulgarian troops consisted of horse's tail
                          attached to a spear..."


                          Jordanes description of Attila the Hun: "flat nose and a swarthy complexion, showing evidence of his origin"
                          -------------


                          Racial type and descendants
                          Victorious Bulgar warrior with captive, featured on a ewer from the Treasure of Nagyszentmiklos

                          Our results suggest that the Cumanians, as seen in the excavation at Csengele, were far from genetic homogeneity. Nevertheless, the grave artifacts are typical of the Cumanian steppe culture; and five of the six skeletons that were complete enough for anthropometric analysis appeared Asian rather than European (Horváth 1978, 2001), including two from the mitochondrial haplogroup H, which is typically European. It is interesting that the only skeleton for which anthropological examination indicated a partly European ancestry was that of the chieftain, whose haplotype is most frequently found in the Balkans.

                          Source Link
                          Last edited by indigen; 12-16-2010, 07:45 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Onur
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 2389

                            #43
                            Indigen, i see that you started spamming the thread now, by repeatedly posting your crap over and over again with same cartoons by creating giant msg frame!!! good for you!!!

                            But i can guess that you are probably thinking like "i am macedonian on a macedonian forum, so i have a right to spam but you are just a turko-mongol, so stfu"!!!!
                            sigh...


                            I told you before, you have a dismissive excuse for anything that does not fit your world-view of white Caucasian (and linguistically related to Sumerian) Turks and you are as stubborn as any Greek or Bulgarian nationalist.
                            Indigen, you expect me to accept your cartoons and deny numerous 8-9-10th century Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Jewish records(i wrote some of them above). You also want me to accept Jordanes`s descriptions like "Huns, Turks descendant from evil spirits", which he wrote like 200 years after Attila`s death and deny Priscus`s eyewitness records from his meeting with Attila.

                            I said that you are obsessive and hopeless with a reason.





                            As above and the pot calling someone else black is the case again! I am beginning to think you are just an alternate login for the same person!?
                            Hah!! probably you do that yourself, so expect me to do the same? Ask admins about our IPs, as far as i remember Ottoman said he was living in outside Turkey while i am not. I am not a low life like you dude. Dont think that everyone is like yourself!


                            Now go ahead, write just one sentence and quote all your crap in a giant frame again.
                            Last edited by Onur; 12-16-2010, 12:23 PM.

                            Comment

                            • astibo
                              Junior Member
                              • Oct 2009
                              • 60

                              #44
                              I find this subject quite interesting. I must admit that i dont know much about the origin of the turkish people.
                              As i understand Onur, he is saying that modern day turkish speaking peoples like Finlandians, Hungarians and Turks from Turkey are predominantly genetic descents from turkish colonists from the middle ages and not descending from autohtonous peoples in those regions who had accepted the turkish language. But if that is so, than those peoples should all resemble each other, finlandians should look like hungarians and turks. But i think that Finlandians are similar to sweeds and Norwegans, Hungarians are similar with Romanians and Serbs from northern serbia and Turks from Turkey share many comon features with Macedonians.
                              My opinion is that the population in modern Turkey is dominantly autohtonous, but also there is a large percent of turkish genes.
                              I must say again that i am not very familiar with this subject and i am just sharing my opinion.
                              And there is no need for arguing with such tone and hostility guys, we are not enemyes if we have diferent opinion on something,,,

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13675

                                #45
                                Good post Astibo, one thing I would note is that the group of languages should be named under the umbrella term of Ural-Altaic, as not all of them are Turkic.

                                In my opinion, the proto-people of the Ural-Altaic group were no doubt 'eastern-oriental' looking, for want of a better word. However, it is clear that there was an increase of inter-racial mixing with 'western-caucasian' looking people the further west they travelled. Once they integrated with the larger local populations of their current destinations in Anatolia, central Europe and Scandinavia, many, if not most, came to resemble the locals themsleves, while retaining some elements of their ancestry. Those that live between the old and new homelands share features of both to varying degrees.
                                Originally posted by Onur
                                Thats what medieval documents says but ofc not all Turks was blondish. There was brown haired and eyed ones too since Turks was never homogeneous throughout history but it was rather an unity of various people who speaks Uralic-Altaic languages.

                                And as you can read here, blond haired and blue/green eyed Cuman Turks left us one of the most important work of Turkic language in 12th century. A collection of Turkic riddles, sample sentences for conversation in Turkic and a dictionary with a total of 4500 Turkic words.
                                Onur, do you find the reference to 'eastern-oriental' looking people incorrect as the description of the early ancestors of the Turks? Although I am not sure why there was a necessity to steer this topic on to a 'racial' analysis, surely you don't believe that the Turkic people that were kindred to the early Huns bordering Chinese territory in the 4th century were 'western-caucasian' looking? A century later, Attila was in the territory and company of people speaking Slavic languages, and he was most certainly of mixed breed himself, to what degree though is arguable.


                                Attila was lord over all the Huns and almost the sole earthly ruler of all the tribes of Scythia; a man marvellous for his glorious fame among all nations.
                                In the land of Scythia.....Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.
                                When they had mourned him with such lamentations, a strava, as they call it, was celebrated over his tomb with great revelling.
                                Only a privileged group among the many nations over whom he ruled would be allowed to perform such an act. Who else then, would "they" be, and who else would "call it" like that? Perhaps the European element in the lineage of Attila was of people speaking a Slavic language afterall.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X