Financial Crisis in Greece

[Coolski]

What you failed to mention Eric is that while Greece was was leeching from the EU, it was using that money as a point of leverage over Macedonia, in addition to its political clout based on perceived ancient glory.

Now that Greece is on its knees and no longer has the money nor the means to fabricate a sense of entitlement from the EU, it means that Macedonia has gained so much.

When you have been armed with a stick and someone is attacking you with a machine gun, and their gun is later replaced with a stick, that is a huge gain. You should properly understand just what an impact Greece's disgusting policies have had on Macedonia and realise:
A) How resilient Macedonians are; and
B) Forgiveness will not come cheap.

Our politicians are our biggest obstacle to our cause, not because they are too stubborn. It is because they are not stubborn enough to make the full extent of our discontent known.

[Coolski]

Anyone know the outcome of this debate?

[EricTheRed]

What I meant in my last sentence is that Macedonia needs not even concern herself with Greece. Your politicians being stubborn or not matters little, since I come to understand that the current government is a sell-out(just like ours).
So whether Macedonia has a stick and Greece has a machine gun or vice versa is irrelevant, because there shouldn't be a conflict in the first place. I repeat, Macedonia should declare the IA null and void and change the name, there is no need to debate your name with Greece. For the past 10 years there is almost nothing Greece can do to pressure Macedonia itself, except blocking the country's entrance to EU and NATO. Macedonia can simply ignore these organizations, abolish the acronym and stand up as a sovereign nation.
Especially NATO is an obsolete structure without purpose in today's world, since the next world war will end in 1 day with 99% of humans dead. Even the EU is not structured properly(you keep talking about how Greece squeezed money out of Germany, France etc, but you fail to mention that it was greek, spanish, italian and others' purchases of german cars, arms etc that drove Germany's growth into what it is today).
Macedonia and Greece however are still not standing on equal ground, and they never will as long as the first's NAME is being negotiated. Hence my above proposition.

[Risto the Great]

Eric, I assume you are Greek.
You have a better grasp of the situation than most Macedonians or Greeks.

cheers

[EricTheRed]

Indeed I am Greek Risto, and thats exactly the reason why I am interested in the dispute between the 2 countries. Because a conclusion in an argument can not be safely reached unless someone researches the positions, interests etc of of both sides, I decided to join this forum to understand Macedonians' viewpoint and possibly inform whoever interested about Greece's views on the issue.

[George S.]

etr do you see how you country greece got hold of macedonia.How it on the pretext that it liberated macedonia called it the occupied lands yes they were militarily.How it tried to assimilate people.How it tried to shift people with the population exchanges.etc.Prior to the take over or patition which was illegal as it wasn't approved by the macedonian people,the country as a whole,i did say macedonia was a country as a whole under the ottomans.Also Macedonia was carved up amongst 4 countries please explain to me how after milleums a country can suddenly belong to four other countries unless it was a land grab.All four countries it was said did no t like their share they wanted more.Also neither would recognise each minority as eg macedonian.Also that meant not giving any rights.
Your country greece made up the propaganda like in the seventh century ad the slavs came & destroyed the macedonians.But this is not true the macedonians were still existing & still do.We have some slavic influence but not enough to dominate us.If what greece says about us is tru then the greeks are themselves slavs & so are other countries.
Also in the partitioning bulgaria wanted the whole of macedonia for themselves but they missed out on the aegean as it arrived too late for the battle.
So the rest is history.

[EricTheRed]

WARNING: This will probably sound as rambling about a variety of subjects, you've been warned.
First of all, regarding the population exchange, I assume you mean the big one that happened 1922. Did you ever consider the fact that Greece was forced to exchange populations with Turkey due to our defeat in the previous war? Meaning that the exchange itself was not planned in order to increase the number of Greeks in Macedonia-rather, it was the territory itself that had the space needed to place in all the new arrivals, since both Thessaly and the Peloponnese were unable to support an extra 2 million people. These people would have certainly preferred to remain in Asia Minor, where they had lived since ancient times.
Can you see the analogy with the Macedonians? Almost every greek has some1 in the family who was expelled from asia minor and pontus in 1922. This was also not approved by them, who were the majority, and hence it wasnt legal. As the years passed, even the great community of Constantinople was slowly exterminated, to the point it numbers a sad 5.000 ppl. These peoples' situation is like the one described in your post, and even worse, since there is no longer even a minority to recognize.
You will ask me why mention all this. You see, when any greek speaks of stuff like historical justice and reclaiming lost lands etc etc everyone here says he is a delusional peasant fascist who dreams of touching almighty Turkey, or that these displaced people werent greeks but christian turks etc...Thus denying their existence and their background. Why wouldnt the Macedonians be the average delusional peasants who dream of touching (the comparatively) almighty Greece, in the same context of thought?

Why should a Greek who knows the above sympathize with the Macedonians and recognize their existence, when his own existence isnt recognized by them, since according to most of you most of us greeks are turks, ethiopians, albanians, arvanites etc. What differs the 2 peoples so much(Macedonians and Greeks) that the 1st survived almost intact 2000 yrs later and the 2nd got completely extinct(considering the fact that the greeks far outnumbered the Macedonians and almost everyone else in eastern mediterrenean during AND AFTER the roman invasion, and no known mass genocide took place. Why would all these millions of people dissappear completely off the face of the earth?).
Your mentality towards the greeks is thus the same as theirs' towards your people.For example, if you consider lets say me as an Ethiopian/Arvanite/Turk etc, while I am greek, and its not unfair, then there would be nothing wrong with me considering you as a Bulgarian, while you are in fact Macedonian.(EXAMPLE, dont get me wrong). Hence, double standards!

In history, every nation suffers and loses territory, and Macedonia is no exception. While it is fair and just to protect the minorities and have them recognized(at least there are still Macedonians to be protected in Aegean, while there are no Greeks in Asia Minor to protect any more-Greeks werent as savage as the Turks, this mere fact proves it), I am afraid that the quest for historical justice and retribution is often not only fruitless but also counterproductive. So focus on protecting the remaining Macedonians in Greece and getting everyone to call Macedonia with its rightful name, both very noble causes, but dont expect any justice about my country's past actions against the macedonians , history proves it is rarely granted, and when it does it brings together a new round of disasters(check Prusso-French war of mid 19th century, it took 2 global wars for the french and prussians to put historical grievances aside).

Forgive me for this long and perhaps irrelevant at some points post.

[Niko777]

Why should a Greek who knows the above sympathize with the Macedonians and recognize their existence, when his own existence isnt recognized by them, since according to most of you most of us greeks are turks, ethiopians, albanians, arvanites etc.

We do recognize self identity. If someone identifies as Greek, we recognize them as a Greek. The same is not true for us, we self identify as Macedonians and Greeks do not recognize this, they refuse to call us Macedonians and instead resort to changing or censoring our name.

[Niko777]

I am afraid that the quest for historical justice and retribution is often not only fruitless but also counterproductive.

What if the quest for justice and retribution is for victims who are still alive? Example, the Macedonian children refugees from the Greek civil war who today are not allowed to settle back into their own homes because their citizenship and properties were confiscated by the Greek government?

[George S.]

Greece militarily went in there illegally & took a part of macedonia illegally.Over the years the govt has used all sorts of propaganda mostly denial of the macedonia minority & other factors which acrtually evidence what greece has done is wrong & is totally illlegal.