Political Scandals and Judiciary Corruption in Macedonia

[ramo]

Originally Posted by VMRO

Ramo, just a question.

What would you like to happen in response to this scandal?

What i wanted to happen already happened. Most of the people know the truth about the media, the court system and the personal "qualities" of the people that lead the country.

[Gocka]

And now what, what would you want to see as an ideal scenario?

Originally Posted by ramo

What i wanted to happen already happened. Most of the people know the truth about the media, the court system and the personal "qualities" of the people that lead the country.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by Gocka

And now what, what would you want to see as an ideal scenario?

That's what i wanted him to answer... ok Gruevski and co implicated in a scandal...

But what now? i'm sure Zaev could have used a better way of doing what he is doing, all the foreign companies interested in investing in Macedonia will be put off now.

[ramo]

Originally Posted by VMRO

That's what i wanted him to answer... ok Gruevski and co implicated in a scandal...

But what now? i'm sure Zaev could have used a better way of doing what he is doing, all the foreign companies interested in investing in Macedonia will be put off now.

How do you mean scandal? Did any of you heard the recordings? Children without parents form social institutions are pressured to vote "right", soldiers, policeman, public administration forced to vote for vmro. "Barabi" (bullies) working in Ministry of Interior taken on election day to beat and arrest voters, threats that people will be fired, threats that people will end up dead ("vo endek"), threats that Tose Proeski museum will be shut down because his family is not supporting the government, shutting down elevators so the old people can not climb the buildings and vote where they know the opposition has many supporters, plot to steal election material etc etc. (and this is only a small percentage of the stupidities done) This is not a scandal, this is very close to dictatorship. If you continue to support these people you will see 80 percent of the population between 24 - 40 years old in Macedonia to became your fellow citizens in the counties you live. That is the sad reality.

P.S. The salaries in the companies that invest in Macedonia are 150 euro. Less than in China. It is modern slavery. Those are stories for children you write about stopping of some famous investments. Ask the people living here not what the media is saying.

P.P.S. The ideal scenario is people get to vote free.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by ramo

How do you mean scandal? Did any of you heard the recordings? Children without parents form social institutions are pressured to vote "right", soldiers, policeman, public administration forced to vote for vmro. "Barabi" (bullies) working in Ministry of Interior taken on election day to beat and arrest voters, threats that people will be fired, threats that people will end up dead ("vo endek"), threats that Tose Proeski museum will be shut down because his family is not supporting the government, shutting down elevators so the old people can not climb the buildings and vote where they know the opposition has many supporters, plot to steal election material etc etc. (and this is only a small percentage of the stupidities done) This is not a scandal, this is very close to dictatorship. If you continue to support these people you will see 80 percent of the population between 24 - 40 years old in Macedonia to became your fellow citizens in the counties you live. That is the sad reality.

P.S. The salaries in the companies that invest in Macedonia are 150 euro. Less than in China. It is modern slavery. Those are stories for children you write about stopping of some famous investments. Ask the people living here not what the media is saying.

P.P.S. The ideal scenario is people get to vote free.

I'm not supporting DPMNE, but the opposition is no better.

Let's not forget they used the same tactics when their was a referendum organised against the Decentralization in Macedonia. SDSM came out and made sure it failed.

SDSM threatened people that they will lose their jobs if they voted against or even turned up to the polls.

In reality, both are the same shit.

[Gocka]

There is no doubt that some inconsistencies and fraud take place during the voting process, this happens even in the USA. In the case of Macedonia, even with 0 manipulation VMRO by far more popular than SDSM, rightly or wrongly this is fact. VMRO would still win a general election, SDSM knows this, that is why they are trying to take over by subverting the voting process, because they know they can never win through voting.

Now this doesn't mean that VMRO should not be punished and that people should not go to jail for their crimes, but to think that some how dissolving the government and letting SDSM take power unelected is a solution is simply insane.

With every release of new "bombi" it is more and more evident that the recordings are definitely supplied by an outside conspirator. I for one would rather have a dictator in power, rather than handing over power to a traitor who has a debt to repay to a foreign accomplice.

Both parties need to be thrown in jail.

[ramo]

Originally Posted by VMRO

I'm not supporting DPMNE, but the opposition is no better.

Let's not forget they used the same tactics when their was a referendum organised against the Decentralization in Macedonia. SDSM came out and made sure it failed.

SDSM threatened people that they will lose their jobs if they voted against or even turned up to the polls.

In reality, both are the same shit.

I totally agree they used the same tactics. Actually they started these dirty stuff first. I gave my signature when the signatures were needed for referendum to be held. I was labelled as "vmrovec" then and advised not to vote at all. People were "friendly" advised not to vote. After the referendum for decentralization was voted to be held, they organized their whole machinery for it not to be successful. Not to vote against but not to go out and vote at all. So they succeeded with their and the albanian votes to make the referendum not successful. If the same number of people voted against the referendum would have been successfull and there would have been not artificially created albanian communities like Stuga, Kichevo and Chair (Chair is debatable). That's why they lost the next elections and can not stand up on their feet for almost 10 years now and people find it difficult to believe them.

Let's also not forget that the referendum for Kichevo was cancelled for few years because there was strong resistance from the population. The decision for decentralization came in power less than 2 years ago, 7 years after gruevski gained power. They had all the tools, elected parlament members and institutions in their hands to cancel it or postpone it indefinitely. But they kept quiet. Their supporters also.

But. The situation in the country now for 3-4 years at least is much worse. Now there is lot more stuff going on. Now there are actually no real media, nobody's voice can be heard. Ordinary people, reporters, intelectuals, doctors, scientists. Nobody shows their views on TV. Only on some internet portals. 90 percent of the national TV stations refuse to show at least few seconds from the wiretapped conversations making fools of the people. I know there are people not using internet and have not heard not a single word from these animals that lead the country now except the brainwashing news. There are many set up court cases against people who got stuck in jail because of pure personal and political interests. They delete unemployed people from the statistics for 1 year if they got late 1 week to show in front of the employment agency which almost never offers you job like in all normal countries. The unemployment is at least 5-10 percent larger than reported. These are the most serious problems. The smaller problems list is much much larger. And finally the biggest problem is emigration of the young people because of this complex situation which nobody talks about and can not be heard if he wants to talk.

My post was very off-topic, i hope there will be hearing more good news in the future.

[ramo]

Originally Posted by Gocka

With every release of new "bombi" it is more and more evident that the recordings are definitely supplied by an outside conspirator. I for one would rather have a dictator in power, rather than handing over power to a traitor who has a debt to repay to a foreign accomplice.

Both parties need to be thrown in jail.

Gocka, let's say that this is foreign thing (which i personally believe is not and they would have proven it by now) , why does not anybody takes responsibility for the absence of security system that will protect the Macedonian citizens against such acts. Let's say we can not beat them, but since now it is clear there is security breach, there are 2 options. High ranked people in the ministry of interior and intelligence services should be replaced immediately if we were normal country. Not they are not replaced, but they are pretending nothing has happened and showing up on government controlled TV stations.

Second option is declaring "persona non grata" for foreign ambassadors from the country that was surveying us. There was already one case of wiretapping few months ago with court sentences for collaboration with foreign intelligence service. Also no official representative was expelled from Macedonia. Do you think such government should stay in power at all costs and do you think this kind of government will protect us from foreign enemies? If your opinion is affirmative, then we probably have nothing to debate for in future.

[Gocka]

My opinion is that they don't know who did the wire tapping. We both know Macedonia is a third world country with third world capabilities. If Germany could not protect itself against the US wire tapping their Prime Minister, then what makes you think Macedonia can not be wire tapped? I think VMRO is in total shock and doesn't know what to do yet. Even if they do know who did the wire tapping and it is a foreign intelligence service, then expelling an ambassador would be a huge step, which frankly is not in our favor anyway. We are a tiny country, with nothing to offer anyone.

Most of us including me have been calling for Grujo and his band to be deposed for years. Most of us never fell for his fake patriotism. You have to understand though is that allowing foreign interests dictate who your leaders will be is suicide for the average citizen. He needs to go but not like this, because currently the political vacuum that would be left behind can only be filled by a group of people who are potentially worse, and that is not a risk worth taking. There is a saying, "out of a frying pan and into the fire", that is how I see Macedonia right now.

Hopefully with all these revelations both parties discredit each other, and a push is made to make elections more fair. So far I don't see anyone in the political realm who is ready to lead Macedonia, and that is a big worry.

For the time being we just need to keep calm and try and start grass roots political movement sin Macedonia, that when a change over of power happens we don't commit political suicide.

Originally Posted by ramo

Gocka, let's say that this is foreign thing (which i personally believe is not and they would have proven it by now) , why does not anybody takes responsibility for the absence of security system that will protect the Macedonian citizens against such acts. Let's say we can not beat them, but since now it is clear there is security breach, there are 2 options. High ranked people in the ministry of interior and intelligence services should be replaced immediately if we were normal country. Not they are not replaced, but they are pretending nothing has happened and showing up on government controlled TV stations.

Second option is declaring "persona non grata" for foreign ambassadors from the country that was surveying us. There was already one case of wiretapping few months ago with court sentences for collaboration with foreign intelligence service. Also no official representative was expelled from Macedonia. Do you think such government should stay in power at all costs and do you think this kind of government will protect us from foreign enemies? If your opinion is affirmative, then we probably have nothing to debate for in future.

[Philosopher]

Originally Posted by Gocka

We both know Macedonia is a third world country with third world capabilities. We are a tiny country, with nothing to offer anyone.

Two very powerful statements. Small correction. Macedonia is not a "third world country"; it is a "second world" country.

I would add the following.

As the article posted by Dejan noted, Macedonia is a country, that, frankly, no one cares about. There are some in the world who are not even familiar that such a country even exists. For many, the name "Macedonia" conjures up "Greece".

The only reason the article Dejan referenced mentioned Macedonia, in which the author noted was a "south Slavic" land, whatever that means, is because of the competing interests of the East and the West.

Apart from this, no one could care any less about Macedonia.

It is most sad, but it is most true.

Macedonia is a landlocked country with no particular useful resources or economy to speak of. It is a poor country with an ethnic identity that is disputed. The Macedonian people are as good as lost sheep.

This bugging scandal is a joke.