How is 'ethnicity' defined?

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by osiris

what was very amusing is that in the 19th century more englishmen spoke classical greek than the self proclaimed hellenes. that must mean the english too like the pontians are really true greeks.

Why would Greeks of the 19th century be speaking Classical Greek?
Classical greek was spoken BC.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Ill look to find the links. Those 10 or so quotes I copy/pasted from some history site, but all they provided was the book/date/chapter....no clickable link.
I also found some other quotes from the middle ages using the term 'Hellene", but they were untranslated, so I didnt bother.

So long as they are contemporary documents from the medieval period, and you can obtain them at no great difficulty, please post them, i'm interested to see them.

As for 'Greek', 'hellene', 'Romios' etc, I know we will disagree here, but my opinion is that they are synonymous terms.

Spartan, didn't we already spend a few pages coming to an agreement that the Roman name is not a synonym for Greeks because of the multi-ethnic character of the empire? Why are you stepping away from the common ground and understanding we came to and beginning to generalise like that? It is not a matter of argument, but fact, that the term Hellene was anti-Roman for centuries and the term Roman seldom equated to being Greek in the ethnic sense.

Your people may have employed all of these terms during different periods in history, but to suggest that they are all synonymous is simply not accurate.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

So long as they are contemporary documents from the medieval period, and you can obtain them at no great difficulty, please post them, i'm interested to see them.

Sorry SoM, couldnt find anything on the net.
Looks like its going to have to be the library.

Spartan, didn't we already spend a few pages coming to an agreement that the Roman name is not a synonym for Greeks because of the multi-ethnic character of the empire?

It can be argued that it is a synonym only for those native greek speakers that constituted a part of the byzantine empire. I apologise for not being clearer in my previous post. I am not claiming that the entire Byzantine empire was a Greek or Hellenic empire. It was not. It was a multi-ethnic empire which would have had cultural elements from all its various peoples.

It is not a matter of argument, but fact, that the term Hellene was anti-Roman for centuries and the term Roman seldom equated to being Greek in the ethnic sense.

Yes, but the revival of the term 'hellene', started earlier than 1821.
Some of the native greek-speakers that made up a part of the multi ethnic Byzantine empire were not ignorant of their roots, but rather, as you have already stated, came to despise the term 'hellene'.

Beginning in the twelfth century, certain Byzantine Greek intellectuals began to use the ancient Greek ethnonym Ἕλλην (Héllēn) in order to describe Byzantine civilisation.[77]
Mango, Cyril (1965). "Byzantinism and Romantic Hellenism". Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes (28): 33
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzanti...s#cite_note-76

A distinct Greek nationalism re-emerged in the 11th century in educated circles and became more forceful after the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade in 1204 so that when the empire was revived in 1261, it became in many ways a Greek national state
"Greece during the Byzantine period (c. AD 300–c. 1453), Population and languages, Emerging Greek identity". Encyclopedia Britannica. United States: Encyclopedia Britannica Inc.. 2008. Online Edition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenes

[TrueMacedonian]

It can be argued that it is a synonym only for those native greek speakers that constituted a part of the byzantine empire. I apologise for not being clearer in my previous post. I am not claiming that the entire Byzantine empire was a Greek or Hellenic empire. It was not. It was a multi-ethnic empire which would have had cultural elements from all its various peoples.

Hardly the truth at all and not based on any hard evidence.

Yes, but the revival of the term 'hellene', started earlier than 1821.
Some of the native greek-speakers that made up a part of the multi ethnic Byzantine empire were not ignorant of their roots, but rather, as you have already stated, came to despise the term 'hellene'.

Beginning in the twelfth century, certain Byzantine Greek intellectuals began to use the ancient Greek ethnonym Ἕλλην (Héllēn) in order to describe Byzantine civilisation.[77]
Mango, Cyril (1965). "Byzantinism and Romantic Hellenism". Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes (28): 33
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzanti...s#cite_note-76

A distinct Greek nationalism re-emerged in the 11th century in educated circles and became more forceful after the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade in 1204 so that when the empire was revived in 1261, it became in many ways a Greek national state
"Greece during the Byzantine period (c. AD 300–c. 1453), Population and languages, Emerging Greek identity". Encyclopedia Britannica. United States: Encyclopedia Britannica Inc.. 2008. Online Edition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenes

Considering that their actual roots were mostly from Armenian, Slavic, and Latin stock I find it curiously humorous that todays scholar has created a sense of "nationality" considering a Roman/Christian one was the eminent "nationality". This is where Kaldellis makes sense and where he picks out certain scholars like Vryonis and Magdalino (hope I spelled his name right) for inserting things like "greek" and "hellenic identity" where none was present or existed in the sense that we think of nationality today.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

So long as they are contemporary documents from the medieval period, and you can obtain them at no great difficulty, please post them, i'm interested to see them.

“Marianos, speaking in their language, advised the Latins… not to
fight against fellow-Christians. But one of the Latins hit him… with
his cross-bow… a weapon quite unknown to the Hellenes…”
Anna Komnini (in 1148-53).
“Alexiad”: 10.8.5-6

I found this one in greek SoM.

Here it is - "η δε τζάγγρα τόξον μεν εστιν βαρβαρικόν καί Έλλησι παντελώς αγνοούμενον", (this tzagra is a barbarian bow entirely unknown to the Hellenes).
http://www.archive.org/stream/alexia...e/n92/mode/1up

"Hellene" in Greek, means 'Greek" in English, so maybe thats why it was translated in this manner?

As for the rest of them, no luck, and Im sorry but i dont see myself going to the library to find them lol, so whatever.

I dont really want to fire this topic up again, as we've all made our points, but I came across it...so there it is.