How is 'ethnicity' defined?

[Spartan]

So long as they are contemporary documents from the medieval period, and you can obtain them at no great difficulty, please post them, i'm interested to see them.

“Marianos, speaking in their language, advised the Latins… not to
fight against fellow-Christians. But one of the Latins hit him… with
his cross-bow… a weapon quite unknown to the Hellenes…”
Anna Komnini (in 1148-53).
“Alexiad”: 10.8.5-6

I found this one in greek SoM.

Here it is - "η δε τζάγγρα τόξον μεν εστιν βαρβαρικόν καί Έλλησι παντελώς αγνοούμενον", (this tzagra is a barbarian bow entirely unknown to the Hellenes).

http://www.archive.org/stream/alexias01reifgoog#page/n92/mode/1up

"Hellene" in Greek, means 'Greek" in English, so maybe thats why it was translated in this manner?

As for the rest of them, no luck, and Im sorry but i dont see myself going to the library to find them lol, so whatever.

I dont really want to fire this topic up again, as we've all made our points, but I came across it...so there it is.

[TrueMacedonian]

It can be argued that it is a synonym only for those native greek speakers that constituted a part of the byzantine empire. I apologise for not being clearer in my previous post. I am not claiming that the entire Byzantine empire was a Greek or Hellenic empire. It was not. It was a multi-ethnic empire which would have had cultural elements from all its various peoples.

Hardly the truth at all and not based on any hard evidence.

Yes, but the revival of the term 'hellene', started earlier than 1821.
Some of the native greek-speakers that made up a part of the multi ethnic Byzantine empire were not ignorant of their roots, but rather, as you have already stated, came to despise the term 'hellene'.

Beginning in the twelfth century, certain Byzantine Greek intellectuals began to use the ancient Greek ethnonym Ἕλλην (Héllēn) in order to describe Byzantine civilisation.[77]
Mango, Cyril (1965). "Byzantinism and Romantic Hellenism". Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes (28): 33

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzanti...s#cite_note-76

A distinct Greek nationalism re-emerged in the 11th century in educated circles and became more forceful after the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade in 1204 so that when the empire was revived in 1261, it became in many ways a Greek national state
"Greece during the Byzantine period (c. AD 300–c. 1453), Population and languages, Emerging Greek identity". Encyclopedia Britannica. United States: Encyclopedia Britannica Inc.. 2008. Online Edition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenes

Considering that their actual roots were mostly from Armenian, Slavic, and Latin stock I find it curiously humorous that todays scholar has created a sense of "nationality" considering a Roman/Christian one was the eminent "nationality". This is where Kaldellis makes sense and where he picks out certain scholars like Vryonis and Magdalino (hope I spelled his name right) for inserting things like "greek" and "hellenic identity" where none was present or existed in the sense that we think of nationality today.

[Spartan]

So long as they are contemporary documents from the medieval period, and you can obtain them at no great difficulty, please post them, i'm interested to see them.

Sorry SoM, couldnt find anything on the net.
Looks like its going to have to be the library.

Spartan, didn't we already spend a few pages coming to an agreement that the Roman name is not a synonym for Greeks because of the multi-ethnic character of the empire?

It can be argued that it is a synonym only for those native greek speakers that constituted a part of the byzantine empire. I apologise for not being clearer in my previous post. I am not claiming that the entire Byzantine empire was a Greek or Hellenic empire. It was not. It was a multi-ethnic empire which would have had cultural elements from all its various peoples.

It is not a matter of argument, but fact, that the term Hellene was anti-Roman for centuries and the term Roman seldom equated to being Greek in the ethnic sense.

Yes, but the revival of the term 'hellene', started earlier than 1821.
Some of the native greek-speakers that made up a part of the multi ethnic Byzantine empire were not ignorant of their roots, but rather, as you have already stated, came to despise the term 'hellene'.

Beginning in the twelfth century, certain Byzantine Greek intellectuals began to use the ancient Greek ethnonym Ἕλλην (Héllēn) in order to describe Byzantine civilisation.[77]
Mango, Cyril (1965). "Byzantinism and Romantic Hellenism". Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes (28): 33

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greeks#cite_note-76

A distinct Greek nationalism re-emerged in the 11th century in educated circles and became more forceful after the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade in 1204 so that when the empire was revived in 1261, it became in many ways a Greek national state
"Greece during the Byzantine period (c. AD 300–c. 1453), Population and languages, Emerging Greek identity". Encyclopedia Britannica. United States: Encyclopedia Britannica Inc.. 2008. Online Edition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenes

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ill look to find the links. Those 10 or so quotes I copy/pasted from some history site, but all they provided was the book/date/chapter....no clickable link.
I also found some other quotes from the middle ages using the term 'Hellene", but they were untranslated, so I didnt bother.

So long as they are contemporary documents from the medieval period, and you can obtain them at no great difficulty, please post them, i'm interested to see them.

As for 'Greek', 'hellene', 'Romios' etc, I know we will disagree here, but my opinion is that they are synonymous terms.

Spartan, didn't we already spend a few pages coming to an agreement that the Roman name is not a synonym for Greeks because of the multi-ethnic character of the empire? Why are you stepping away from the common ground and understanding we came to and beginning to generalise like that? It is not a matter of argument, but fact, that the term Hellene was anti-Roman for centuries and the term Roman seldom equated to being Greek in the ethnic sense.

Your people may have employed all of these terms during different periods in history, but to suggest that they are all synonymous is simply not accurate.

[Spartan]

what was very amusing is that in the 19th century more englishmen spoke classical greek than the self proclaimed hellenes. that must mean the english too like the pontians are really true greeks.

Why would Greeks of the 19th century be speaking Classical Greek?
Classical greek was spoken BC.

[Spartan]

Spartan, do you have any links to the texts of the quotes cited below? I would like to confirm the terminology and context.

Ill look to find the links. Those 10 or so quotes I copy/pasted from some history site, but all they provided was the book/date/chapter....no clickable link.
I also found some other quotes from the middle ages using the term 'Hellene", but they were untranslated, so I didnt bother.

As for 'Greek', 'hellene', 'Romios' etc, I know we will disagree here, but my opinion is that they are synonymous terms.

[Spartan]

Of course the educated and the elite had access and resources to ancient manuscripts from Plato and so forth where they would be a "class" apart from everyone else in the kingdom. However it did not change the East Roman empire into a "hellenic" one. Sometimes Archaism rather than Droysen's "hellenism" dictated use of the word. Livianos even mentioned this in his work.

Im not trying to say that the byzantine empire was a Hellenic one, just that the term 'Hellene' was not completely dropped, and that some of the subjects in southern greece knew of their roots.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Are the quotes fake in your opinion?

Here is a link to the Alexiad, there is only one reference to 'Hellenic', the rest is 'Greek', so the quotes according to this link are incorrect, as they use 'Hellenic' where in actual fact it is 'Greek'.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pgc.asp?page=basis/annacomnena-alexiad00.html#BOOK%20XV

Spartan, do you have any links to the texts of the quotes cited below? I would like to confirm the terminology and context.

Because these words do not come from (the lips of) people who are unwise or ignorant of what is precise and commendable in the language
of Hellas…” Arethas of Kaisaria (in 900s), “Public Anathematization of Polygamy”

“…and one can not but bless himself for not being a barbarian but
having been born an Hellene. The same thing saying myself…”
Nikiforos Grigoras (in 1327). “Epistle to Sir Andronikos Zaridis”

“You push them back… and preserve… the freedom and faith of all
the Hellenes who live in Asia…” Dimitrios Kydonis (in 1366). “Advising the Romans”

Here is the reaction of the (east) Romans after Papal legates came to Constantinople in the 10th century bearing a letter addressed to ‘the emperor of the Greeks’, in which the pope referred to Otto I of West Rome as ‘the august emperor of the Romans’;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/liudprand1.html
"Was it not unpardonable," they said, "to have called the universal emperor of the Romans, the august, great, only Nicephorus: "of the Greeks"';-a barbarian, a pauper: of the Romans'? Oh sky! Oh earth! Oh sea! But what," they said, " shall we do to those scoundrels, those criminals?"

We are clearly reading about a people that despised the term as a reference to self-identity.

I was just showing sources that the term 'Hellene" was not completely dropped, and was used (albeit not that often) in the middle ages.

But for the overwhelming mass and for the overwhelming majority of time until the 19th century, it was dropped. Apart from only a handful of philosophically-minded types that sprang up every few centuries, nobody else espouses a 'Greek' or 'Hellenic' identity. Generally speaking, the (east) Romans viewed the terms as insulting, among a number of reasons for this was also their limitation when compared to the term 'Roman'.

[osiris]

i agree with spartan all the main words like malaka and pousti are exactly the same in pontian and the nuovo greek idiom called demotiki from this i deduce that ll pontiansand neuevo grkks are all gay masturbaters.

personally i dont have a problem with those type of people and in fact have many freinds who are either very happy masturbaters or just masturbaters. poor neuvo grrks they treally need that affirmation constantly dont they well here it is for all our grrrk readers and contributers yes you are all really ancient greeks who somehow forgot how to speak the perfect divine language and instead leraned vlachika aravanitiki trourkika and horror of horrors slavika from thewir heoric grannies.

what was very amusing is that in the 19th century more englishmen spoke classical greek than the self proclaimed hellenes. that must mean the english too like the pontians are really true greeks.

[TrueMacedonian]

I was just showing sources that the term 'Hellene" was not completely dropped, and was used (albeit not that often) in the middle ages. Are the quotes fake in your opinion?
As for the books, Im not doubting you have scholars as well, and Im sure Kaldellis opinion is of value, but I think Cambridge is a very sound source as well.

Anyways, Im in Toronto..... far from Oz.

No I didn't say that they were fake. I said the following;

There are so many ways to spin words in modern times to give them modern meanings but the truth is they meant something altogether different than what we would like to interpret. Sorry Spartan I'm not in the mood to start posting 40 pages of scholars that refute everything you have posted.

Of course the educated and the elite had access and resources to ancient manuscripts from Plato and so forth where they would be a "class" apart from everyone else in the kingdom. However it did not change the East Roman empire into a "hellenic" one. Sometimes Archaism rather than Droysen's "hellenism" dictated use of the word. Livianos even mentioned this in his work.

[Spartan]

I was just showing sources that the term 'Hellene" was not completely dropped, and was used (albeit not that often) in the middle ages. Are the quotes fake in your opinion?
As for the books, Im not doubting you have scholars as well, and Im sure Kaldellis opinion is of value, but I think Cambridge is a very sound source as well.

[TrueMacedonian]

This is what Ive found so far -

Constantine Paleologos, speaking to his troops two days before the fall, he called them "descendants of the Hellenes and Romans" and he termed Constantinople "the hope and joy of all Hellenes"

http://books.google.com/books?id=Yo8g7FhPFO8C&pg=PA226#v=onepage&q=&f=false

https://

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“These people (i.e. the barbarian invaders) have never enjoyed the
imperial benevolence, and have no Hellenic manners to behave…”
“The Administrator’s Report on the Crimean Peninsula.” (in 964) #2


“Marianos, speaking in their language, advised the Latins… not to
fight against fellow-Christians. But one of the Latins hit him… with
his cross-bow… a weapon quite unknown to the Hellenes…”
Anna Komnini (in 1148-53).
“Alexiad”: 10.8.5-6


“Because we are Hellenes in terms of stock, as our language and ancestral education betray… And also, this land… Hellenes always have been inhabiting…”
Georgios Plithon Gemistos (in 1418)
“About the Matters in Peloponnisos”



“…and one can not but bless himself for not being a barbarian but
having been born an Hellene. The same thing saying myself…”
Nikiforos Grigoras (in 1327).
“Epistle to Sir Andronikos Zaridis”



“You push them back… and preserve… the freedom and faith of all
the Hellenes who live in Asia…”
Dimitrios Kydonis (in 1366).
“Advising the Romans”



“Because these words do not come from (the lips of) people who are unwise or ignorant of what is precise and commendable in the language
of Hellas…”
Arethas of Kaisaria (in 900s), “Public Anathematization of Polygamy”



“His pronunciation (i.e. of M.Psellos) was such as you would expect of a Latin who had come to our country as a young man and learnt the
Hellenic (language) thoroughly, but was not quite clear in his articulation.”
Anna Komnini (in 1148-53), “Alexiad”: 5:8.8

The following was by Anthony Kaldellis. There are so many ways to spin words in modern times to give them modern meanings but the truth is they meant something altogether different than what we would like to interpret. Sorry Spartan I'm not in the mood to start posting 40 pages of scholars that refute everything you have posted. But nice try friend. When I come and visit Australia I would love to get together with you and RTG and SoM and have some fosters with you guys.

[Spartan]

I was half joking.

I should of known, you funny guy you lol

Why do I say this, because cousins of mine who live in Greece cannot understand a word of the Pontians when they let loose in their own language. It is simply too much of a leap in mindset for a Greek to imagine anyone with different factors in their ethnicity but still using Hellenic alphabets and words as having a non modern Greek identity.

I respect your opinion Risto, but I must say that what Im reading online about the Pontians state that they speak a dialect of greek. I dont know any pontians, but I know some Pontian songs, and can understand maybe half of it. I will say though, that it is by far the furthest from proper Greek of the other dialects I have heard. Far enough away to be considered its own language?.. perhaps.
Im not quite sure on what the criteria is to be considered a 'language'.

Do you think the Spanish and Italian languages are more different than Pontian vs modern Greek?

I would guess that they are, however a linguist I am not.
Im just going by what I have read about it.

[Risto the Great]

I was half joking.

RE: Pontic vs Modern Greek
The Pontian language developed over two millenia independent from anything that happened with modern Greek. The languages are mostly mutually incomprehensible. You would be amused to realise it was the madman Akritas who states this.

Why do I say this, because cousins of mine who live in Greece cannot understand a word of the Pontians when they let loose in their own language. It is simply too much of a leap in mindset for a Greek to imagine anyone with different factors in their ethnicity but still using Hellenic alphabets and words as having a non modern Greek identity.

You don't see the same commonality between Spaniards and Italians or French. Do you think the Spanish and Italian languages are more different than Pontian vs modern Greek?

[Spartan]

Would linguists agree with you?
I thought Russian was its own language.