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Old 05-05-2021, 11:18 PM   #91
Soldier of Macedon
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis
Greece calls them Turks or “Turkogenous” which means “of Turkish descent” and their language is called Turkish.
I'm not interested in your hearsay. I asked for examples that demonstrate official acknowledgement of Turks and associated rights.
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Well, actually THAT is the issue, and about Romani (Gypsies) also.
No need to keep making it an issue. The treaty considers all Muslims in western Thrace as a collective, but not all Muslims in western Thrace are Turks. We've got it. You can move on.
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Greece generally doesn’t use (officially) the term minority, except for the Muslim minority of Western Thrace. This is also the only case with official education in different language.
Then don't compare backward Greece with EU countries like Germany.
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I’m not sure what you say about Germany or Bulgaria is correct.
Try expanding your research beyond the first Google result in Greek.
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I think Albania is bound by Treaties about its’ Greek minority, but there are some issues that have been discussed before in the forum.
An antiquated treaty isn't required for the Macedonian minority in Albania. They have official (albeit partial) recognition.
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Greece certainly does not recognize a Macedonian ethnicity or minority, disagreeing both on the name and essence. We usually speak of a Slavophone or Slav Macedonian community or group.
That's merely a convenient excuse. The fact is, even if the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia were to accept being labelled with such a degrading exonym or insignificant relic, the demented political ideology in Greece will never allow for the official recognition of such a minority, because it would punch a hole right through the myth of continuity and homogeneity.
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I think you’re wrong.
No, I'm right. The ruling did contravene a section of the treaty and it didn't take a war to make it happen.
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What ruling are you talking about?
The exchanges in this discussion are long enough without having to respond to questions that have obvious answers. At some point I will tire from telling you to figure it out.
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I also read extended statements by European Court of Human Rights but not the part about Saudi Arabia. Actually, the statements I read were very moderate and respectful towards Sharia.
The reference to Saudi Arabia was meant to be hyperbolic. If you can't grasp the analogy then do some more thinking.
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Yes, there’s a moderate disagreement by Turkey, the Muftis (of course) and by the most religious part of the minority. The percentages and opinions among the minority are totally unclear.
The disagreement was moderate to the point of irrelevance. There was no outcry in western Thrace and Turkey objecting to either the verdict of the ECHR or the decision of the Greek parliament. That much is clear.
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I have found previous statements by the Muslim MP of New Democracy proposing that Muslims should be able to choose between Civil Courts and Sharia IF ALL PARTS AGREE.
It sounds like this MP would’ve also supported the change. The point is, contrary to the earlier practice that was upheld by the supreme court in Greece, the grieving party now has the option of taking the matter to civil court rather than the Mufti, whether the other party agrees to it or not, thus revoking the obligatory application of Sharia Law that was hitherto imposed by "Christian" Greece.
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There are efforts to estimate the numbers of legal or illegal immigrants and foreigners of all sorts. Some of the numbers and pies you can find out there are based on sources that simply refer to people born in different countries. I couldn’t find what I remembered but it was a funny one as it presented a sizeable Albanian community in Greece (around 7%) and also… a German one.
You indicated that second-generation foreigners may appear as Greeks in some official statistics. I asked for the data and a definition of “Greeks” in such statistics, and you present me with your memory loss. The task of holding you to account for every sloppy or baseless statement is tedious. The next time you have a bout of amnesia, don’t bother responding. Take heed.
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The only practical legal use I can think of is if an ethnic-Greek from abroad acquires Greek citizenship. The Greek term is “homogenous” which means “of our blood/genre”.
Interesting how the only practical legal use you can think of relates to people from abroad who are seeking citizenship in Greece, rather than to people in Greece itself. Suppose an ethnic Vlach from Canada who identifies as both a Vlach and a Greek wishes to emigrate to Greece, does he qualify as being of the blood?
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In short, Vlachs define as Vlachs (and as Greeks). There are very few who would say, I’m not Greek, I’m Vlach, I’m only a Greek citizen.
Yes, I know. There are even associations in Greece that consist of ethnic Vlachs who don't take any measures to preserve their language. The disposition towards their ethno-linguistic heritage has less to do with indifference and more to do with dedicating their miserable lives to the pursuit of cultural suicide. As neither the ethnic Vlachs nor their language have any official recognition in Greece, it makes the existence of such associations both redundant and pathetic.
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In the old days this would not apply for Slavophones…….
I accepted the use of that term in one instance earlier because it was in reference to Greece's racist treatment of the Macedonians. It wasn't necessary in the above context. Don't use it again in such a manner. If you can't be civil, bite your tongue or get lost. Push further and the reaction will be more definitive.
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What on earth are you referring to?
I’m referring to your hypocrisy in pointing out what the Turks allegedly did to Greeks in Cyprus whilst being oblivious to what the Greeks did to Macedonians and Turks in Macedonia. Pretending to not understand the premise of my response doesn’t lend any intelligence to yours. I will repeat what I stated earlier - figure it out. Persist with the charade and you will not be afforded the same courtesy in subsequent replies.
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There’s a generic (moral, historical) legitimacy that can be one-sided or judged by third-parties and there’s the strict legal part. If Cyprus had signed a Treaty with Turkey, which they wisely avoided doing beside the pressure, Turkish Cyprus (or whatever it was named) would be recognized by everyone today.
Legality in the political world is about as fluid as your definition of a Greek. New states become “strictly legal” when dominant forces extend recognition. Throughout history, this has been defined by politician ambition and arbitrarily breached by anyone with power, motive and commitment. So, spare me the lecture. What you call a “false-state” in Northern Cyprus is in fact a de facto state that would have already been recognised by other countries were it not for the ceaseless whining of the people who triggered the farcical situation on that island in the first place and the strategic objectives of their patrons.
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Old 05-08-2021, 02:23 AM   #92
Amphipolis
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
I'm not interested in your hearsay. I asked for examples that demonstrate official acknowledgement of Turks and associated rights.
This is not my hearsay, it’s been phrased, for instance, by former President of Greece, Costis Stephanopoulos. The associated rights of these people come from the fact that they are Muslims of western Thrace, not Turks. Ethnic ancestry usually does not produce any special legal rights. I know a Greek girl that has a Spanish grandmother, i.e., her ancestry is ľ Spanish. Nobody knows that or cares about it and it doesn’t produce any legal rights, except probably in Spain.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
No need to keep making it an issue. The treaty considers all Muslims in western Thrace as a collective, but not all Muslims in western Thrace are Turks. We've got it. You can move on.
For the third time: This IS the whole issue: how the Muslim minority will be considered/called Turkish.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Then don't compare backward Greece with EU countries like Germany.
I don’t see why. I read that Germany recognizes only 5-6 linguistic minorities (most are German or half-German dialects) and provides, rather unwillingly it seems, some local educational rights.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
An antiquated treaty isn't required for the Macedonian minority in Albania. They have official (albeit partial) recognition.
I think you should play the card of mutuality, which is not just a card, mutuality is a very reasonable and very fair principle.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
That's merely a convenient excuse. The fact is, even if the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia were to accept being labelled with such a degrading exonym or insignificant relic, the demented political ideology in Greece will never allow for the official recognition of such a minority, because it would punch a hole right through the myth of continuity and homogeneity.
Never say never. As you know education did come close to realization (abecedar) and was according to treaties. Did these treaties describe a national minority, an ethnic or a linguistic one? And what did they call it?

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
The disagreement was moderate to the point of irrelevance. There was no outcry in western Thrace and Turkey objecting to either the verdict of the ECHR or the decision of the Greek parliament. That much is clear.
It sounds like this MP would’ve also supported the change. The point is, contrary to the earlier practice that was upheld by the supreme court in Greece, the grieving party now has the option of taking the matter to civil court rather than the Mufti, whether the other party agrees to it or not, thus revoking the obligatory application of Sharia Law that was hitherto imposed by "Christian" Greece.
It’s certain that there was never an outcry either FOR or AIGAINST the Sharia. Also, Muslims (just as Christians) have ways to be secular, e.g., have a civil wedding. Furthermore, every married or old person, in case he’s interested, SHOULD know the basic about divorce or inheritance laws.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
You indicated that second-generation foreigners may appear as Greeks in some official statistics. I asked for the data and a definition of “Greeks” in such statistics, and you present me with your memory loss. The task of holding you to account for every sloppy or baseless statement is tedious. The next time you have a bout of amnesia, don’t bother responding. Take heed.
I’m referring to the type of statistics one usually finds when he wants to research the great replacement. I can’t find the Greek version I remember but this is a similar one for UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...United_Kingdom

Note: This gives 82% British people and 18% foreign-born people (from various countries). Thus, it hides all second or third-generation immigrants who are now presented as British. Lastly, real Brits that were born, e.g., in India or USA are presented in the respective categories.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Interesting how the only practical legal use you can think of relates to people from abroad who are seeking citizenship in Greece, rather than to people in Greece itself. Suppose an ethnic Vlach from Canada who identifies as both a Vlach and a Greek wishes to emigrate to Greece, does he qualify as being of the blood?
Well, he would have to come from Greece (before his ancestors going to Canada), he can’t be a Bulgarian Vlach.

For instance, I was reading a Parliament Question by nationalist Kyriakos Velopoulos. He’s protesting because Greek citizenship was DENIED to three individuals (three separate cases) who were Greek activists and are probably Greek/Vlachs, either all or two of them. (1) Ekaterini Vida, a Greek activist and teacher of Greek in Prilep that comes from Variko, Florina. (2) A similar case of a retired teacher Athanasios Stergiou who lives in Monastir and comes from Mileonas, Florina. (3) Lawyer Georgios Pilis from Monastir, president of the Greek Union Pelagonia, whose grandfather published the first Greek newspaper in Monastir in 1913 (called Hellenic Light) and who is asking for citizenship for himself and his family.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
I’m referring to your hypocrisy in pointing out what the Turks allegedly did to Greeks in Cyprus whilst being oblivious to what the Greeks did to Macedonians and Turks in Macedonia. Pretending to not understand the premise of my response doesn’t lend any intelligence to yours. I will repeat what I stated earlier - figure it out. Persist with the charade and you will not be afforded the same courtesy in subsequent replies.
I thought you said the Greeks raped, killed, and kicked your ancestors out of their houses, so I asked when-where that happened. Just curious to see the similarities with Cyprus.

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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Legality in the political world is about as fluid as your definition of a Greek. New states become “strictly legal” when dominant forces extend recognition. Throughout history, this has been defined by politician ambition and arbitrarily breached by anyone with power, motive and commitment. So, spare me the lecture. What you call a “false-state” in Northern Cyprus is in fact a de facto state that would have already been recognised by other countries were it not for the ceaseless whining of the people who triggered the farcical situation on that island in the first place and the strategic objectives of their patrons.
Again, Greece or Turkey cannot persuade the countries to change their position because of some basic principles of international law broken in the 1974 invasion and some basic weaknesses in the Turkish narrative. If you really support Turkish Cyprus, you should ask Australia to recognize it.
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:43 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Amphipolis View Post
Well, he would have to come from Greece (before his ancestors going to Canada), he canít be a Bulgarian Vlach.

For instance, I was reading a Parliament Question by nationalist Kyriakos Velopoulos. Heís protesting because Greek citizenship was DENIED to three individuals (three separate cases) who were Greek activists and are probably Greek/Vlachs, either all or two of them. (1) Ekaterini Vida, a Greek activist and teacher of Greek in Prilep that comes from Variko, Florina. (2) A similar case of a retired teacher Athanasios Stergiou who lives in Monastir and comes from Mileonas, Florina. (3) Lawyer Georgios Pilis from Monastir, president of the Greek Union Pelagonia, whose grandfather published the first Greek newspaper in Monastir in 1913 (called Hellenic Light) and who is asking for citizenship for himself and his family.
Yep

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