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Old 09-03-2018, 05:56 PM   #4841
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There we have it. The believers in DPmNE can now see where the notion of "northern" was first established. The fact that Zaev took it and brought it to a new level of rape doesn't make it any different from the initial rape. After all, a rape is a rape.
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Old 09-03-2018, 10:41 PM   #4842
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SDSM and VMRO are two sides of the rotten anti macedonian coin. Both are willing to change the name and identity, both are in bed with the shiptars, both dont care about macedonia.

There are still a lot of brain dead macedonians who see Gruevski as a hero and his party. They still follow what their VMRO masters tell them to do - in this case its to 'boycott' the reffrendum and in the process help make the name change much easier
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:29 PM   #4843
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http://www.minareport.com/2018/09/04...-in-macedonia/

Zaev: Yes, Macedonian companies won’t be allowed to use “Made in Macedonia”

In the capitulation signed by Zaev, as explained by the SDSM leader at the Economic Chamber of Macedonia, the right to non-exclusion on this issue has been defined. “If we do not agree and do not agree on this issue, it does not mean that the Agreement is invalid” stated Zaev.

According to Zaev, we have no problem whether “Made in Macedonia” will write for the region of Macedonia or the state Macedonia. But because of the new name, Macedonian companies won’t have such right, instead the exclusivity of it has been given to the Greek side.

– There are no aspirations to take our rights. The final goal is within three years of the verification of the agreement, to discuss the two countries because some Greek producers may want to use “Made in Macedonia” and here we have agreed the right to non-exclusivity. Our right is their right. We have no problem whether “Made in Macedonia” will write for the region of Macedonia or for our Macedonia, as a state.
However, a period of three years has been left to give Greece’s businesses the chance to have their own determination. If they decide to have Made in Macedonia their products, we are good with it. Greek producers may have issues with Macedonian companies using “Made in Macedonia” and can block it, but this is after three years – explained Zaev.
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:40 PM   #4844
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Whether its from a pro or anti government source, the reported statements by Zaev (and Dimitrov) boggle the mind. I seriously cannot fathom how any sane person can listen to these two and think "I have confidence in this man, he seems to know what he is talking about"
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Old 09-04-2018, 07:32 PM   #4845
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How any of this can be described as a win is unfathomable. This is the peak of the trough.
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Old 09-05-2018, 06:36 AM   #4846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
SDSM and VMRO are two sides of the rotten anti macedonian coin. Both are willing to change the name and identity, both are in bed with the shiptars, both dont care about macedonia.

There are still a lot of brain dead macedonians who see Gruevski as a hero and his party. They still follow what their VMRO masters tell them to do - in this case its to 'boycott' the reffrendum and in the process help make the name change much easier
You think it's better to vote "no" in that undemocratic shithole?
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:10 AM   #4847
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http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...dum-09-04-2018

West in Diplomatic Push to Boost Macedonia Referendum

The German and Austrian Chancellors and NATO Secretary-General all visit Macedonia this week to support government efforts to ensure a successful referendum on the historic ‘name’ agreement with Greece.

The visits by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Austria’s Sebastian Kurz and NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg to Macedonia, just a few weeks ahead of the September 30 ‘name’ referendum, is a sign of strong Western support for the process, observers said.

If the vote goes in favour of the agreement with Greece to change Macedonia’s name, it would remove the biggest obstacle on the country’s Euro-Atlantic path.

First to arrive for a two-day visit to Skopje is NATO’s Secretary-General Stoltenberg. He is to visit the country on Wednesday and Thursday – his second visit in the last six months.

Austrian Chancellor Kurz is set to arrive on Friday.

Markel’s arrival is set for Saturday in what will be her first visit to Macedonia and the first visit by a German chancellor to the country in almost two decades.

Merkel’s arrival on September 8 also coincides with Macedonia’s independence Day, during which she is expected to meet the country’s top leaders and may even address the nation.

Macedonia’s former Foreign Minister Denko Maleski said he believes that the high-level visits will offer support to the Social Democrat-led government in Skopje and its effort to end the longstanding name dispute with neighbouring Greece.

“Most [Macedonian] citizens will surely understand the meaning of these visits. It is strong support for the government’s course but also for all the Macedonian citizens who, on September 30, should confirm the striving of our country since its independence to join NATO and the EU,” Maleski told Radio Free Europe.

Under the so-called ‘name’ deal with Greece, signed this summer, Macedonia agreed to change its name to the Republic of North Macedonia, while Greece agreed to lift its long-standing veto on Macedonia's NATO and EU integration.

But for the deal to end the two countries’ dispute to be fully implemented, Macedonians must show they support it in a referendum, which is due to be held on September 30.

“There is no question about it. They [the Western leaders] are coming to support the referendum in Macedonia so that this issue can be concluded. The very fact that diplomatic rules are getting a bit stretched shows how important the referendum is and how much effort the international community is putting into supporting it,” political analyst Petar Arsovski said.

For the referendum to succeed, more than half of the Macedonian voters must vote.

The situation has been complicated by the reluctance of the main right-wing opposition VMRO DPMNE party to clearly state whether it will call on its supporters to vote as they wish or boycott the plebiscite.

This party has previously strongly attacked the agreement, calling the deal an act of national capitulation.
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:14 AM   #4848
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http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...rs--09-04-2018

Nimetz: ‘Another Name Deal Could Take Another 25 Years’

In an interview with BIRN, the UN mediator between Greece and Macedonia recalls his years-long role in the negotiations – and warns of the huge risks, if the agreement is not approved.

Over a quarter of a century, Matthew Nimetz, the UN envoy tasked with mediating the dispute between Macedonia and Greece over the former’s name, has seen over a dozen prime ministers come and go in Skopje and Athens, while the bilateral row stayed the same.

That all changed on his birthday this year. On June 17, when Nimetz turned 79, the Macedonian and Greek foreign ministers Nikola Dimitrov and Nikos Kotzias, signed the agreement on resolving the long-standing dispute. Nimetz was seated in the first row, among other foreign dignitaries, celebrating this historic agreement.

In an interview with BIRN, Nimetz recalled both the negotiating process and his own role in it, alongside the significance of the timing and the huge risks if the agreement is not approved in both countries.

The dispute dates back to Macedonia’s declaration of independence from Yugoslavia in the early 1990s and Greece’s objection to the use of the name “Macedonia”, which Greece claimed as part of its own heritage.

As a result, Macedonia was admitted into the UN under an interim name, “The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”.

Athens has since blocked Macedonia’s efforts to join the EU and NATO unless the dispute is resolved and the country’s name is changed.

Back in the early days of the dispute, the authorities in Skopje hoped that the world would side with Skopje and that countries would go on to recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name, despite the ongoing dispute.

Soon, however, it became clear that with Greece a member of both the EU and NATO, the strategy was shortsighted.

“There was a view in Skopje, in the early days, that time was on the side of Skopje. Time was not on Skopje’s side. There was a view that the heat of the Greek political life, [with mass demonstrations] would dissipate over time and Greek views would become more moderate while the international environment would change and more countries would recognize it under its constitutional name,” Nimetz recalls.

“I had the opposite argument in those days. I said: ‘You ought to move fast here, you have a chance of becoming a part of the EU along with Bulgaria and Romania, you should settle this, move on, because you never know what can happen with the EU, with NATO, what will happen with the region,’” he said. “Things can get better on this but they can also get worse.”

In fact, Macedonia secured the recognition of over 120 countries as the “Republic of Macedonia” but that did not include Greece, which blocked it from receiving an invitation to join NATO, while every recommendation by the European Commission to start accession talks failed likewise to materialize.

Over the years, Greece rammed home its point by scolding international officials every times they just used the word “Macedonia”, instead of the interim name, issuing protest notes and reminders to stick to the UN-accepted formula.

Nimetz laughs when asked how he handled this issue personally during the talks.

“This was difficult for me personally, how to express myself and that is one of the reasons I always thought this issue needed to get solved because everyone in the world dealing with this issue, or with the countries involved, had a problem with how to speak, especially in English but also other foreign languages,” he says.

“My approach was, sadly, to avoid the usage of the names, because it was always an issue. I never used FYROM because that is not an acceptable name, I would sometimes say, The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, which is a very, very, long name and not very comfortable – but it is the official one in the UN and I am a UN officer.

“But you cannot have a conversation and keep using that name, so I tended to use the two capitals and say, ‘What is the view in Athens and what is the view in Skopje?’”

A good illustration of how frustrating it was for officials at times was an exchange he had with former UN Secretary-General Ban Ki moon, who told him: ‘“Nimetz you’ve got to settle this problem right away.

I cannot say The Former Yugoslav Republic anymore; the last time I said Former Yugoslav Republic of Yugoslavia, everyone laughed at me, you have to solve this and get me out of this awkwardness.’ And I told him, ‘Yes sir, I will solve it, right away.’”

After NATO’s Bucharest summit in 2008, when Macedonia failed to receive an invitation to join the alliance, Skopje decided to pursue legal action against Greece in the International Court of Justice. In 2011 it ruled in favour of Skopje. In reality, the ruling did not change much.

The talks continued and, although no solution was in sight, Nimetz says it was important to keep going.

“My strategy, even during periods when there was not much chance of an agreement being reached, was to maintain the dialogue, to keep the process going, to keep floating ideas, waiting for the timing to be right” he says.

“Internal issues in both countries made it difficult during some periods to focus on this as the highest priority – economic issues, financial crisis, deadlocks in parliament, changes in government – but ultimately I think the right thing happened,” Nimetz adds.

What further complicated matters was the so-called “antiquization” process launched by Macedonia’s former prime minister, Nikola Gruevski.

This resulted in the erection in Skopje of massive neo-Classical buildings and sculptures, including a huge statue of Alexander the Great in the centre of the city. The whole process additionally irked Athens and was widely deemed provocative.

Talks only speeded up with the arrival of the new government in Skopje led by the Social Democrat Zoran Zaev in mid-2017. The government pledged to put the dispute to bed.

This was well received in Athens, where the government now saw advantages in reaching a solution of this issue. Foreign Minister Nikola Dimitrov’s first official visit was to Athens in June 2017. A year later, a deal was struck, welcomed by moderates but dismissed by nationalists in both countries as betrayal of national interests.

Under the agreement, signed in June, Macedonia is to change its name to “Republic of North Macedonia” in exchange for Greek support for swift accession to NATO and a start to EU accession talks.

The new agreed name, the Republic of North Macedonia, will be used both internationally and domestically, an issue that was a priority for Greece.

On the other hand, the definition of the country’s language will remain “Macedonian”, as Skopje had insisted. The people’s nationality will be defined as “Macedonian/Citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia”.

Some opponents of the deal have tried to say key issues of Macedonian identity, nationality and language were never part of the negotiations.

Nimetz insists the talks always included these issues.

“The ‘name’ issue was what people talked about because the name of the state was the dominant issue in people’s perception but historians, when they go into the history of the talks, will find many, many, papers and proposals that deal with these [other] issues,” he says.

“In the UN, for every country there is a protocol, a sheet of paper in the administration for every country that says: name of the state: United States of America, capital city: Washington DC, nationality: American, language English; short name: United States,” he recalls.

“So, we have the same for your country and it says, name: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia; capital, Skopje; and then nationality? So, what do we put there? Language? So, it was always an issue, and the entire package could have not been solved without that because it would have opened new controversies,” he explains.

For the deal to come into effect, however, many hurdles remain. One hurdle is the support of Macedonians, as shown in a referendum set for September 30.

If the referendum on the deal is successful, as current polls predict, parliament will have to adopt constitutional changes, for which the Social Democrats need a two-thirds majority. They will not have that without the support of the opposition, however.

Macedonia’s opposition has yet to decide its position on the referendum but has been firmly against the deal, claiming it could have resolved the dispute in a way more favourable to Macedonia .

Nimetz does not believe that is sensible. “There are some people in your country who say, ‘Let’s not go forward with this agreement, let’s wait, give it some more years, we’ll get a better deal in the future.’ I say: ‘You don’t know where the EU will be, whether they will want another member, whether they will want your country, you don’t know where NATO will be, you don’t know what happens in Greece with the changes in their government, you don’t know what happens in the broader region and European political and economic environment that will affect a new negotiation. The idea of long-term waiting is a very risky one.”

Nimetz fears that the current opportunity may not reoccur for a long, long time if it is rejected.

“I hope the agreement will pass, and I think it will pass in both countries, because it is a fair and honourable solution that meets the essential interests of both countries, but if it doesn’t get approved I do not see another solution in the near term,” he warns

“It has taken 25 years to achieve this agreement, it may take another 25 years. And a lot of people will lose interest if this does not pass in your country,” he says.

“If you reject it, I fear you would be viewed by many as telling the world: ‘We are not interested in a compromise solution, we are not interested to solve this issue with Greece, we are not interested in the EU process, we are not interested in NATO, we are not interested in solving problems.’ The rest of the world is likely to say: ‘OK, these folks are not interested in solving anything, so why should we worry about their situation? … So it may be many, many years before anything resumes on this issue, if it is turned down.”

Nimetz will retire now and is looking forward to relinquishing his involvement in one of Europe’s most intractable disputes.

In his own words, “Hopefully the agreement gets approved in both countries, but in any case, I’ll move on. Of course, I will always have a special feeling for these two countries, but I will not have a responsibility to worry about this issue anymore.”
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:23 AM   #4849
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So just to recap, in his interview with the BBC published on 2 August 2017, Nimitz was quoted as saying the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
"We're not negotiating identity. If we were, I'd be out of here."
Whilst in his most recent interview with BIRN published on 5 September 2018, Nimitz is quoted as saying the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
Some opponents of the deal have tried to say key issues of Macedonian identity, nationality and language were never part of the negotiations.

Nimetz insists the talks always included these issues.

“The ‘name’ issue was what people talked about because the name of the state was the dominant issue in people’s perception but historians, when they go into the history of the talks, will find many, many, papers and proposals that deal with these [other] issues,” he says.

“In the UN, for every country there is a protocol, a sheet of paper in the administration for every country that says: name of the state: United States of America, capital city: Washington DC, nationality: American, language English; short name: United States,” he recalls.

“So, we have the same for your country and it says, name: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia; capital, Skopje; and then nationality? So, what do we put there? Language? So, it was always an issue, and the entire package could have not been solved without that because it would have opened new controversies,” he explains.
Mr Nimitz, you are a purposely deceptive despicable liar
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:35 AM   #4850
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So, the moral of the story is;

You can't negotiate that which is not negotiable.
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igor janev, interim accord, ireland, macedonia, roger casement


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