Quarrel for Karagoz

[thessalo-niki]

Vote in what???????? Spit it out....Government elections, Greek idle, who is going to be the next captain of the soccer team?

Well, I refer obviously to the political process (national, european and local elections) and other political activities.
____________________________________
Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Bill77]

Well, I refer obviously to the political process (national, european and local elections) and other political activities.

What has voting in political activities have to do with Ethnicity? i am an Anarchist and don't vote does this mean i have no Ethnicity?

come on mate stop beating around the bush and ask direct questions or stop waisting my time.

For now i will be watching Tour De France so don't bother me.
In the mean time, learn the differance between
A) Ethnicity
B) Citizen
C) Geographical


PS: Thesa....you should also watch the Tour De France. There are some nice looking ass there mate

[Prolet]

For now i will be watching Tour De France so don't bother me.

Bill, What are your thoughts on Mark Renshaw's headbutt on Kiwi wing man Julian Dean? I still cant believe he got disqualified.

[thessalo-niki]

What has voting in political activities have to do with Ethnicity? i am an Anarchist and don't vote does this mean i have no Ethnicity?

That might be an explanation. So, i guess, all "ethnic Macedonians" of Greece must be anarchists, because I can't see their vote anywhere.
The Rainbow Political Party has participated only in European Elections (2004 & 2009). Even though, vote is loose in European Elections and half people don't show up to vote, their percentages were:
Florina 3-3,5%
Pella ~0,5%
Kastoria ~0,5%
Rest areas ~0%
Overall Greece: 4.500-6000 votes, 0,1%
Anyway, which are the people we are talking about according to your definitions?
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Mastika]

That might be an explanation. So, i guess, all "ethnic Macedonians" of Greece must be anarchists, because I can't see their vote anywhere.
The Rainbow Political Party has participated only in European Elections (2004 & 2009). Even though, vote is loose in European Elections and half people don't show up to vote, their percentages were:
Florina 3-3,5%
Pella ~0,5%
Kastoria ~0,5%
Rest areas ~0%
Overall Greece: 4.500-6000 votes, 0,1%
Anyway, which are the people we are talking about according to your definitions?

It is not about being anarchists, many people choose not to vote for the party because they simply do not identify with the political stance of the party. After all, it is a political party with certain ideology. There are many Aegean Macedonians who simply do not identify with them, one of them, Vodenka, posts here regularly.

The fact is, an election is NOT a census. It does not tell us the true number of ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Greeks purposely choose not to comprehend this as it gives more support to their bullshit idea about Greece being ethnically homogenous.

If you do not know by now, Aegean Macedonians refers to the ethnic Macedonians originating from Greece (Aegean Macedonia). Can you please tell me why you wrote "ethnic Macedonians" of Greece ??
Is the existence or the name of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece optional? Why cannot you not simply call them ethnic Macedonians? Where is the need for quotation marks? If you cannot recognise the existence of the Macedonian nation in Greece, then what are you doing here?

[Bill77]

It is not about being anarchists, many people choose not to vote for the party because they simply do not identify with the political stance of the party. After all, it is a political party with certain ideology. There are many Aegean Macedonians who simply do not identify with them, one of them, Vodenka, posts here regularly.

The fact is, an election is NOT a census. It does not tell us the true number of ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Greeks purposely choose not to comprehend this as it gives more support to their bullshit idea about Greece being ethnically homogenous.

If you do not know by now, Aegean Macedonians refers to the ethnic Macedonians originating from Greece (Aegean Macedonia). Can you please tell me why you wrote "ethnic Macedonians" of Greece ??
Is the existence or the name of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece optional? Why cannot you not simply call them ethnic Macedonians? Where is the need for quotation marks? If you cannot recognise the existence of the Macedonian nation in Greece, then what are you doing here?

Thanks Mastika
There is some hope between you and i.

I know i know.....you are defending the truth not me. I appreciate it anyway. I can't be bothered with him. Plus its tour de France time for me. What a beautiful country. Full of beautiful landmarks and other scenery. Its A shame its full of French people though.

[thessalo-niki]

It is not about being anarchists, many people choose not to vote for the party because they simply do not identify with the political stance of the party. After all, it is a political party with certain ideology. There are many Aegean Macedonians who simply do not identify with them, one of them, Vodenka, posts here regularly.

The fact is, an election is NOT a census. It does not tell us the true number of ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Greeks purposely choose not to comprehend this as it gives more support to their bullshit idea about Greece being ethnically homogenous.

Maybe I'm blind and I cannot see it. Are you kidding me? Can YOU see any Macedonian nation in the submitted results? The real ethnic-Macedonians are the ones who define themselves so. Rainbow is the only political party that first introduced the term and supports this idea. This is the only valid way (in a democracy) to count the extent and the power of a political, social, ideological or even religious stance.
I’m aware of Vodenka’s stance, I respect it, but I disagree (though nobody asked me) and I don’t buy the whole argument. If you don't like some details or individuals about the party, you should found a second and a third one and count the sum of the votes.
If I claim that 90% of Greeks are communists, who are suppressed and cannot bring communism to Greece, someone will probably point out that the various Greek communist parties take about 5-7% in the elections. Then he will add that I'm probably an idiot or that I don't make sense.

If you do not know by now, Aegean Macedonians refers to the ethnic Macedonians originating from Greece (Aegean Macedonia). Can you please tell me why you wrote "ethnic Macedonians" of Greece ??
Is the existence or the name of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece optional? Why cannot you not simply call them ethnic Macedonians? Where is the need for quotation marks? If you cannot recognise the existence of the Macedonian nation in Greece, then what are you doing here?

None of the two terms (Aegean Macedonians, Ethnic Macedonians) exist or are used in Greek. We translate them from English to Greek. That’s why I used quotation marks, because, I dispute their validity. I honestly don't know, if the people in question, define themselves so, if they use any of the terms, the extent of its' use and the given meaning. But, I start to suspect you don't know either. You just project your wishful thinking.
The first step for your “Macedonian nation in Greece” is for them, to recognize themselves (and we will follow or at least respect it).
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Soldier of Macedon]

None of the two terms (Aegean Macedonians, Ethnic Macedonians) exist or are used in Greek..........That’s why I used quotation marks, because, I dispute their validity.

They do here, in specific context, otherwise, Macedonian will be used. It seems that you still can't prevent yourself from putting a prefix to the Macedonian name, and I can't really be bothered telling a closet racist like yourself, time and again, to do the right thing. So, I will tell you what I'll do, the next time you behave like a racist and place unnecessary prefixes infront of the Macedonian name while pretending not to "understand" what the Macedonians are about, I will throw you out of here so you can join your fellow racists and openly call Macedonians by whatever name you wish, in your own pathetic little world full of ignorant maggots.

I don't believe you're as stupid as you're trying to be, so the next time you do this will not be considered a mistake, nor will my subsequent actions. If your purpose here is to dribble your own ignorance regarding the validity of another nation, then you've made your point. Do as you will now, either get back into the discussions like a normal and sane person, or crawl back into whatever you came out of.

[vodenka]

This is the only valid way (in a democracy) to count the extent and the power of a political, social, ideological or even religious stance.

Thessaloniki, are you sure about the above? Can you explain to us why the Turkish minority (or Muslim, if you prefer) elect their own representatives in the greek Parliament through greek parties (Pasok, New Democracy) and not by a minority party? I tell you why: it is because the law says to elect a representative in the Parliament you have to get at least the 3% of the votes, in the entire greek territory which makes it impossible to minority parties to elect somebody. The Turkish minority elects at least 2 parliament members at each national election, for many years now!
Many Macedonians vote greek parties and in many occasions they have proved to prefer Macedonians candidates who usually are elected, in some regions, but our problem as Macedonians is that we do not get any advantage by this political action. If we were better organized, I am sure we would get our Macedonians representatives, like the Turks.

[thessalo-niki]

They do here, in specific context, otherwise, Macedonian will be used. It seems that you still can't prevent yourself from putting a prefix to the Macedonian name, and I can't really be bothered telling a closet racist like yourself, time and again, to do the right thing. So, I will tell you what I'll do, the next time you behave like a racist and place unnecessary prefixes infront of the Macedonian name while pretending not to "understand" what the Macedonians are about, I will throw you out of here so you can join your fellow racists and openly call Macedonians by whatever name you wish, in your own pathetic little world full of ignorant maggots.

I don't believe you're as stupid as you're trying to be, so the next time you do this will not be considered a mistake, nor will my subsequent actions. If your purpose here is to dribble your own ignorance regarding the validity of another nation, then you've made your point. Do as you will now, either get back into the discussions like a normal and sane person, or crawl back into whatever you came out of.

The point was not how I call them, but how they call themselves. Yes, Macedonians, but all Macedonians call themselves so.
As for Aegean Macedonians maybe Vodenka can enlighten us. In Greek language, the term does not exist and it's not familiar at all (at least to me). Florina is quite far from Aegean Sea, anyway.
The terms "ethnic-Macedonian", "ethnic-Greek", "ethnic-Turk" or ethnic-anything may exist in English, but not in Greek. In Greek you may say "My nationality is Greek" or "My national conscience is Macedonian or Turkish". The Rainbow party has used a Greek neologism "ethnika-Makedonas" as a direct translation from English, because I guess they didn't know what else to say.
My main questions remain:
(a) How do they define themselves in their language (do they use any of the above prefixes?)
(b) If so, does it mean anything in terms of national conscience?
(c) If so, how does it translate to political action? Where does their vote go? PASOK or Nea Dimokratia maybe? Why?
(d) What is the degree of their Hellenization, either in language or conscience?
(e) How many people are we talking about?
Soldier of Macedon, you did a good job writing 10 lines without touching the issues under discussion. Your opinion and answers on the above questions, would be very helpful and interests me a lot.
__________________________________
Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[thessalo-niki]

Thessaloniki, are you sure about the above? Can you explain to us why the Turkish minority (or Muslim, if you prefer) elect their own representatives in the greek Parliament through greek parties (Pasok, New Democracy) and not by a minority party? I tell you why: it is because the law says to elect a representative in the Parliament you have to get at least the 3% of the votes, in the entire greek territory which makes it impossible to minority parties to elect somebody. The Turkish minority elects at least 2 parliament members at each national election, for many years now!

The Turkish Minority DOES exist and their co-operation with the major parties is of course a troubled compromise. The electoral law never stopped me for about 22 years to vote for extra-parliamentary tiny extreme-left or anti-authoritarian parties. Literally speaking, I never elected anyone and was never represented in any Parliament. So what? Though I don't exactly and fully share the mentality and ideas of the parties I vote for, I do have a choice and make what I think is the best of it and it's written down. Most people curse the major parties all day, and at the end of the day they vote for them. I remember your opinion from Maknews days, but I still strongly disagree with you.
YES, the bad system is bad, but it gives plenty of opportunities. Maybe it's our fault when we don't use the only small power we have, our vote.

Many Macedonians vote greek parties and in many occasions they have proved to prefer Macedonians candidates who usually are elected, in some regions, but our problem as Macedonians is that we do not get any advantage by this political action. If we were better organized, I am sure we would get our Macedonians representatives, like the Turks.

And then SoM talks about prefixes. How many Macedonians vote for Greek parties? 95% of them? How many are the Macedonians? Which are the "Greek Parties"? Do you mean all the Parties except Rainbow? Which are the Macedonian candidates who are elected? Do you mean "Grekoman" Macedonians this time? Or Greek Macedonians? Any name?
Why don't you just admit that the people don't share your ideas or they do in a small or unknown extent?
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Onur]

Thessaloniki, are you sure about the above? Can you explain to us why the Turkish minority (or Muslim, if you prefer) elect their own representatives in the greek Parliament through greek parties (Pasok, New Democracy) and not by a minority party? I tell you why: it is because the law says to elect a representative in the Parliament you have to get at least the 3% of the votes, in the entire greek territory which makes it impossible to minority parties to elect somebody. The Turkish minority elects at least 2 parliament members at each national election, for many years now!
Many Macedonians vote greek parties and in many occasions they have proved to prefer Macedonians candidates who usually are elected, in some regions, but our problem as Macedonians is that we do not get any advantage by this political action. If we were better organized, I am sure we would get our Macedonians representatives, like the Turks.

Why Macedonians in Greece doesn't cooperate with the Turks? OR they try to do but i am not aware of? Turkish people in Bulgaria formed a political party called "Movement for Rights and Freedoms" and they get votes from not only the Turks but also from gypsies and pomaks too. They were a part of the ruling coalition few years ago.

but i am sure that if someone tries to be an MP in Greece by declaring his/her Macedonian identity, then his life would be in danger. Maybe they hate Turkish minority but i don't think they see them as a threat but probably they could see a self-declared Macedonian as a threat to the Greece.

Btw, Turkish minority`s political journey wasn't that easy in Greece. They threw several MPs to the jails ~15 years ago, just because they said "we are not Greeks, we are Turks".

The Turkish Minority DOES exist and their co-operation with the major parties is of course a troubled compromise.

Not according to official Greek policy. For the Greek policy, they are Greek muslims, they are not Turks but ofc this is bullshit like many other Greek policies.


Edit: fixed typo...

[thessalo-niki]

Why Macedonians in Greece doesn't cooperate with the Turks? OR they try to do but i am not aware of?
but i am sure that if someone tries to be a a PM in Greece by declaring his/her Macedonian identity, then his life would be in danger. Maybe they hate Turkish minority but i don't think they see them as a threat but probably they could see a self-declared Macedonian as a threat to the Greece.

Except for the Rainbow Party, other parties also tolerate a declaration of national Macedonian identity (of course it always depends on how you put it). Lately the inclusion of such candidates in the Green Party proved disastrous. While they had good chances for reaching 3% and get elected in the Parliament, all negative publicity focused on their opinions on national issues and discouraged many voters.

Btw, Turkish minority`s political journey wasn't that easy in Greece. They threw several PMs to the jails ~15 years ago, just because they said "we are not Greeks, we are Turks".

Actually, it was one MP (Ahmet Sadik) jailed for 60 days, but you're essentially right it was unfair.
Beware: PM is prime Minister, MP is Member of Parliament

Not according to official Greek policy. For the Greek policy, they are Greek muslims, they are not Turks but ofc this is bullshit like many other Greek policies.

In this case, I agree with you. Nevertheless, there are also many diversions and varieties among these people.
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Odysseas Elytis – Our name is our soul

[Risto the Great]

The point was not how I call them, but how they call themselves. Yes, Macedonians, but all Macedonians call themselves so.
As for Aegean Macedonians maybe Vodenka can enlighten us. In Greek language, the term does not exist and it's not familiar at all (at least to me). Florina is quite far from Aegean Sea, anyway.
The terms "ethnic-Macedonian", "ethnic-Greek", "ethnic-Turk" or ethnic-anything may exist in English, but not in Greek. In Greek you may say "My nationality is Greek" or "My national conscience is Macedonian or Turkish". The Rainbow party has used a Greek neologism "ethnika-Makedonas" as a direct translation from English, because I guess they didn't know what else to say.
My main questions remain:
(a) How do they define themselves in their language (do they use any of the above prefixes?)
(b) If so, does it mean anything in terms of national conscience?
(c) If so, how does it translate to political action? Where does their vote go? PASOK or Nea Dimokratia maybe? Why?
(d) What is the degree of their Hellenization, either in language or conscience?
(e) How many people are we talking about?
Soldier of Macedon, you did a good job writing 10 lines without touching the issues under discussion. Your opinion and answers on the above questions, would be very helpful and interests me a lot.
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

Does it really interest you thessalo? You sound a lot like every other Greek making silly accusations. It says more about Greeks than it does Macedonians. Don't you know what Macedonians call themselves in Greece?

In a mentally deranged country that has allowed racism to morph into something which cannot be explained to an outsider we find ethnic Macedonians describing themselves as Macedonians, Nashi and/or Dopi. You know this. Dopi is a term which seems to be allowed over there. It clearly indicates they are the indigenous people to the region, not some imported race that now calls itself Macedonian or whatever. The original people.

The degree of Hellenisation is extremely strong. You will not survive in Greece in any other way. Don't you know this? Aside from torturing my people and any remnant of their history including names, tombstones, placenames and anything else non Hellenic, Macedonians simply are not welcome in Macedonia. Just like all of Greece's modern neighbours are still thought of in a derogatory fashion.

My people left Greece and brought very little of any Greek culture with them. The Greeks were not there long enough to make an impact on them. When I go back there the old people find me positively refreshing. Like a time capsule of what Macedonia used to be.

I don't know what Greeks are like, but the notion of nationalism on a good day enters my head for about half an hour. The rest of the day I am working, eating, sleeping and laughing at Greeks like you. The Macedonians of Greece vote for people they believe can make a difference to some of the activities I have just listed above. For whatever reason, they also have also never been captivated by the approaches of Vinozhito. This is not because they are a Macedonian political party.

So when is the last time you have ever had a thoughtful conversation with a "Dopi"?

[Mastika]

Maybe I'm blind and I cannot see it. Are you kidding me? Can YOU see any Macedonian nation in the submitted results? The real ethnic-Macedonians are the ones who define themselves so. Rainbow is the only political party that first introduced the term and supports this idea. This is the only valid way (in a democracy) to count the extent and the power of a political, social, ideological or even religious stance.
I’m aware of Vodenka’s stance, I respect it, but I disagree (though nobody asked me) and I don’t buy the whole argument. If you don't like some details or individuals about the party, you should found a second and a third one and count the sum of the votes.
If I claim that 90% of Greeks are communists, who are suppressed and cannot bring communism to Greece, someone will probably point out that the various Greek communist parties take about 5-7% in the elections. Then he will add that I'm probably an idiot or that I don't make sense.

An election is not a census, I will leave it at that. If you want to get a better picture of the demographic landscape of Macedonia, Greece needs to hold a census. The census needs to ask about one's mother language and one's ethnic ancestry.

Again, the more parties the better. The bigger the better, however due to issues within the community this has not happened. You cannot get a true explanation for this from peope outside of that community.

None of the two terms (Aegean Macedonians, Ethnic Macedonians) exist or are used in Greek. We translate them from English to Greek. That’s why I used quotation marks, because, I dispute their validity. I honestly don't know, if the people in question, define themselves so, if they use any of the terms, the extent of its' use and the given meaning. But, I start to suspect you don't know either. You just project your wishful thinking.
The first step for your “Macedonian nation in Greece” is for them, to recognize themselves (and we will follow or at least respect it).

This is an English speaking forum and you clearly you are aware what the terms refer to/mean. The Macedonians in Greece refer to themselves as "Makedonci", "Nashi". When speaking to Greeks many would say "Dopii", for the sake of clarity.
I do agree with you when you say that the first step for many people is to stop using words such as dopi and nashi and start to call themselves MAKEDONCI. They need to start calling themselves as they want to be called.

Is there a reason why Greeks cant stop calling us Slavomacedonians and start to call us Ethnic Macedonians? What about something along the lines of εθνικός Μακεδόνες (I don't know Greek so I am not sure if it is correct). That is not offensive at all, calling us what WE want to be called is the first step of the healing process.

As for some of you questions.

(d) The degree of Helenisation is extremely strong. Many people now see themselves as being ethnically Greek and not ethnically Macedonian (The ethnicity of their grandparents). These people are called Grkomani (Grecomans), one these is Ioannis Voskopoulos the administrator of Lerin prefecture. People, especially in the cities, have been forced by society to drop their non-Greek identity. It is only in the more remote villages that the Macedonian ethnic identity is strongest.

(e) The number of people who know Macedonian as their mother language is probably in excess of 200,000. We will not know the exact number until a free census is held though.