Ivo Petkovski - The Traitor

[Strive]

First of all the strive and struggle for having own free Macedonian state is centuries old.

If we have it finally, why would we compromise it now by changing our names when we have made it so far?

But that was not the point, Bratot. The claim put forth is that if a suffix or prefix is added to the name Macedonia then this will compromise the integrity of the ethnic Macedonian identity. This claim is irrelevant to how long a struggle has taken place for an independent state. My point was that it is claimed that Macedonians have lived in political entities not named Macedonia for centuries while maintaining their culture and identity. How does adding a suffix or prefix to the name Macedonia compromise the integrity of the Macedonian identity? It is your own position that your people have struggled for gaining their own state for centuries. This indicates that a Macedonian identity was alive and well regardless of what the name of the state they resided in was. Do you see my point?

And if you check the informations about how much money go into Macedonia from the Diaspora you should not come up with such absurds since every single one of us have his relatives, families and properties back home in Macedonia.

Spreading dellusioned hopes for economic prosperity by joining NATO/EU by all costs is an act of betrayal since it's used to cheat and manipulate the people for the benefit of outsiders.

Im not sure what point you are trying to make.

Is it your position that Macedonia will not gain economically from becoming a member of the EU? Why is the Macedonian government, then, pursuing membership? Are they that dumb?

My point is that it is easy for the arm chair political pundits in the diaspora to call the shots when they will bear none of the hardships that their kin will endure in their mother country if their wishes come true. It is easy for one to call a someone a traitor for even mentioning a compromise while they type from their 4 story house sitting 10 feet away from a full refridgerator knowing that they have a stable job to go to in the morning.

[Risto the Great]

Hello Strive, your "suggestions" are weak arguments which merely encourage the devaluation of the Macedonian State. In a day and age when nations are meant to enjoy their rights as sovereign nations and share their knowledge, enlightenment and culture amongst the world's inhabitants you want to justify centuries old hardships and perpetuate them in a modern age. Sure the Macedonian identity existed in Ottoman times. So did a Greek identity. In what way is the Macedonian identity inferior to the (insert any modern nation here) identity such that they need to compromise it? What an insipid argument. I can understand why you would hide behind an anonymous IP address.

My point is that it is easy for the arm chair political pundits in the diaspora to call the shots when they will bear none of the hardships that their kin will endure in their mother country if their wishes come true. It is easy for one to call a someone a traitor for even mentioning a compromise while they type from their 4 story house sitting 10 feet away from a full refridgerator knowing that they have a stable job to go to in the morning.

I don't like sitting that close the the refrigerator, the Russian caviar, French champagne and Independent Republic of Democratic North Macedonia Vardarian ajvar smells are a little too strong. Nevertheless, as recently as last week we had rumblings from Slovenia and Slovakia about bailing out countries such as Greece for their economic mismanagement. Further, it is abundantly clear that Bulgaria and Romania have not prospered in the ways you have described. Are you sure about the benefits of joining? Why? If you are slightly unsure, how much are you willing to give up in order to join?

Weak!

[Bratot]

But that was not the point, Bratot. The claim put forth is that if a suffix or prefix is added to the name Macedonia then this will compromise the integrity of the ethnic Macedonian identity. This claim is irrelevant to how long a struggle has taken place for an independent state. My point was that it is claimed that Macedonians have lived in political entities not named Macedonia for centuries while maintaining their culture and identity. How does adding a suffix or prefix to the name Macedonia compromise the integrity of the Macedonian identity? It is your own position that your people have struggled for gaining their own state for centuries. This indicates that a Macedonian identity was alive and well regardless of what the name of the state they resided in was. Do you see my point?

You are either deceptive or ignorant since you are trying to make such point without even understanding what I just explained to you.

We already have a sufix which is not geographical that's why does not determine our designation.

The name of the state resided because we kept the name for centuries, but if we agree now our identity to be defined by a geographycal sufix than we lose our primary identity and we are becoming only local identity, on same level as Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Greeks and all others that live in the 'geographycal' region of Macedonia.
But we aside don't have any other primary identity, except for being Macedonians, which is not case for all the mentioned above who are what they are: Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians, .. set by their primary identity and can be also 'Macedonians' set by the geographycal region they live in as a regional, local - secondary identity.

Do you understand that?

Every Greek has it secured his primary identity which is defined by the NAME of the state and his secondary identity or local by being Athenian, Macedonian, Capadochian etc. etc.

If we set our state name be based on a lets say for example local determinate - Vardar Macedonians - we are officially becoming Vardarians, equal to Bulgarian Macedonans, Greek Macedonians.

We lose our right to preserve the primary identity and Macedonia is not anymore our national cradle bearing her name but we are totally different identity one of the many and Macedonia STOPS being a country of the Macedonians, her rang will be geographycal and not national.

That's exactly what the Greeks and Bulgarians intend achieving.

And if you try reading some history you will see that not having own state bearing your name has concequences on our identity till nowadays since many of the Macedonians living in the other parts of the Macedonia under Bulgaria or Greece have been brainwashed and become assimilated, by force or by will doesn't matter.
So yes, the name of the state aplies on the name of the nation and the name of our nation is our ethnic identity.

Im not sure what point you are trying to make.

Is it your position that Macedonia will not gain economically from becoming a member of the EU? Why is the Macedonian government, then, pursuing membership? Are they that dumb?

My point is that it is easy for the arm chair political pundits in the diaspora to call the shots when they will bear none of the hardships that their kin will endure in their mother country if their wishes come true. It is easy for one to call a someone a traitor for even mentioning a compromise while they type from their 4 story house sitting 10 feet away from a full refridgerator knowing that they have a stable job to go to in the morning.

What makes you think that our (any) government is lead by OUR interest?

Do you think having Greece as a EU member is smart? Ask the european citizens about it.

Joining EU or NATO can NOT be done by blackmailing and enforcing special conditions for Macedonia to join.

It's easy to sell something that you haven't earned and it's hard to keep your honor and dignity until you succeed.

You know, there was a Polish Jew I knew who works in real estate, he said the next parahpasing his words:
before I make an offer to buy a house I always ask first the owner of the house if he have built it or he has inherited the house. If he says he didn't built but his father did.. than he is capable to sell his house for much lower price from it's real worth, if he has built the house he lived in... he would not give it to me so easy.

[Vangelovski]

Hello folks, I have been reading through your forum for days and this thread directed at Mr. Petkovski really caught my attention.

I see that there is a lot of venom directed at Mr. Petkovski for holding opinions that go against the grain of ideologies espoused by the diaspora.

The two major retorts that stand out, in my mind, are:

1. If the Republic of Macedonia adopts a prefix/suffix then this will compromise the integrity of the ethnic Macedonian identity.

2. Mr. Petkovski should stand silent since he lives in London and consequently will not bear any of the consequences of his views if they came to fruition.

My opinions with regards to the above are:

1. Many of you claim that ethnic Macedonians existed for centuries even though they had no official state or homeland. Most recently Macedonians resided in Yugoslavia. Before that it was the Ottoman empire. If the ancestors of Macedonians resided under such conditions (ie no nation state as their own) for centuries while maintaining their identity and culture then how can the current ethnic Macedonian identity be compromised by adding a prefix/suffix to the name of the country? After all, three decades ago Macedonians lived in Yugoslavia, yet they maintained their identity.

2. The same people who make this accusation live in the cushy suburbs of Toronto, Melbourne and Sydney. Your forefathers were/are hard working people that have done well for themselves. What consequences will YOU bear, from your lovely homes abroad, if Macedonia does not join Nato or the EU ? Is it not a little unfair to be calling people out as traitors and calling for their heads for even suggesting a compromise while YOU will bear no economic consequences for what you wish for?


Regards

Strive

Strive, or is it Ivo?

What economic benefits are there to joining the EU/NATO?

Secondly, if you presuppose that economic comfort is more important than self-government, wouldn't it be easier for you to just pretend you are a Bulgarian, obtain a Bulgarian passport and move to the 'west'? Why deny an entire people their right to self-government when you can easily solve your own personal dilemma by selling yourself out rather than your entire nation?

[Strive]

Hello Strive, your "suggestions" are weak arguments which merely encourage the devaluation of the Macedonian State.

How? My position is that the name of the state has absolutley no bearing on the integrity of the ethnic identitie(s) that live in the state. According to several threads in these same forums the Macedonian identity and culture has prospered for centuries, under duress during many long stretches, without the benefit of having a nation state with the name Macedonia. You have provided no arguments explaining why adding a prefix or suffix to the name Macedonia will compromise your identity.

In a day and age when nations are meant to enjoy their rights as sovereign nations and share their knowledge, enlightenment and culture amongst the world's inhabitants you want to justify centuries old hardships and perpetuate them in a modern age.

How am I perpetuating hardships? Listen, the Kurds have a strong identity that spans centuries without the luxury of living in a nation named Kurdistan yet you want me to believe that the Macedonian identity will be compromised if Vardar or North is added to the name? This is silly.

In what way is the Macedonian identity inferior to the (insert any modern nation here) identity such that they need to compromise it?

It is not inferior to any identity. You have yet to explain how a suffix or prefix compromises the identity when it flourished in places, and during times, when no political entity named Macedonia even existed.

I can understand why you would hide behind an anonymous IP address.

This is a cheap shot. I "hide" behind an anonymous IP because I fear for my safety. There are participants on this board that incite violence against those that have differing opinions. Even you get into the personal attacks because I hold a different perspective than you do. Also, it is merely laughable that you make this statement in light of the fact that the majority of the board members here post with fake names to preserve their privacy.

I don't like sitting that close the the refrigerator, the Russian caviar, French champagne and Independent Republic of Democratic North Macedonia Vardarian ajvar smells are a little too strong.

In other words YOU have absolutely nothing to lose if Macedonia is marginalized to the economic outskirts of europe for the next decades. Very nice of you.

Nevertheless, as recently as last week we had rumblings from Slovenia and Slovakia about bailing out countries such as Greece for their economic mismanagement. Further, it is abundantly clear that Bulgaria and Romania have not prospered in the ways you have described.

The point is that RELEVANT TO MACEDONIA Bulgaria, Romania and Greece have gained lots and will continue to gain lots. Greece has obtained billions in hand outs, this has helped their infrastructure and internal institutions immensely. The free flow of many goods and people have cut down on huge administrative costs. If the EU is such a dog why is Macedonia, and many of her neighbors, trying to gain membership? Are they that stupid and you guys are that smart?

Finally, it is obvious that YOU, with your nice car and home, first world health care, first rate educational institutions, efficient government infrastructure, first rate infrastructure have absolutely NO IDEA what it is like to live full time in a second world country. You are all willing to sell your bretheren in Macedonia down the river so that YOU can maintain face in front of the Greeks in Sydney, Toronto and Melbourne. Shame on you.

A prefix will not change how I feel, will not change Macedonian history, it is too bad that you feel so shallow in your identity that adding North or Vardar to the name of the nation state that you DO NOT EVEN LIVE IN will make you feel compromised and inferior.
Shame on you.

[Rogi]

Strive,

How do you justify the imposition of a prefix or suffix to the name of the Republic of Macedonia, against the will of its' citizens and the fundamental principles of national sovereignty, Sovereign Rights and Human Rights?

Your arguments are about the consequences of the addition of a prefix or suffix to the name of the State, whilst you bluntly ignore what comes before those arguments; the questions of Sovereignty, Law and Rights.

Before we address your arguments about the impact and consequences of a name change, we must evaluate the reasoning that leads to a name change, or the considerations of a name change; in other words, the reasons for the issue(s) leading to this situation.

In order to reach the point of your argumentation, you must concede or accept a predisposed notion that would suggest a disrespect and disregard for the Sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia, and accept the notion that the Macedonians are unworthy of equal rights and are unworthy of their national sovereignty.

Perhaps you could take a step back and come to the crux of the issue, before moving to some level of 'after the fact' technical and economic evaluations and assumptions, which we can delve into later and once you have accepted the above implications of moving toward your arguments.

[Phoenix]

Strive, are you Greek or Macedonian...?

[Risto the Great]

How? My position is that the name of the state has absolutley no bearing on the integrity of the ethnic identitie(s) that live in the state. According to several threads in these same forums the Macedonian identity and culture has prospered for centuries, under duress during many long stretches, without the benefit of having a nation state with the name Macedonia. You have provided no arguments explaining why adding a prefix or suffix to the name Macedonia will compromise your identity.

What have Macedonians done so wrong to be relegated to a second class nation such that they are not allowed to self identify as Macedonians? Answer this Strive.

How am I perpetuating hardships? Listen, the Kurds have a strong identity that spans centuries without the luxury of living in a nation named Kurdistan yet you want me to believe that the Macedonian identity will be compromised if Vardar or North is added to the name? This is silly.

I feel for the Kurds. They are barely noticed in the world arena yet number in the tens of millions. I do not think they are a particularly good or comforting example. Anyway, are Macedonians really aiming for the stars merely because they have chosen to self identify as Macedonians? The Macedonian identity will go backwards with any composite name. It already has with the FYROM name. Within 20 years the Greeks have caused enough confusion about the issue that a disinterested party has now changed their perception of what it means to be "Macedonian". How silly is that?

It is not inferior to any identity. You have yet to explain how a suffix or prefix compromises the identity when it flourished in places, and during times, when no political entity named Macedonia even existed.

It would be inferior to people from Greece or Bulgaria who would be able to call themselves "Macedonian" without the need for any additional descriptors. Since my people come from what is now Greece, I technically could call myself a Macedonian (along with millions of Turkish christian imports) but my relatives over the border would have to call themselves North Vardarian Macedonians or something. It is inferior. Stop kidding yourself.

This is a cheap shot. I "hide" behind an anonymous IP because I fear for my safety. There are participants on this board that incite violence against those that have differing opinions. Even you get into the personal attacks because I hold a different perspective than you do. Also, it is merely laughable that you make this statement in light of the fact that the majority of the board members here post with fake names to preserve their privacy.

No, this forum has nothing on what Greeks forums get up to. I have a personal history in relation to that matter and know very well what silly games they play.

In fact most people that hide their IP address are already or have been here and their agendas are already established. So rather than fearing for your physical safety, this is more of an opportunity for you to pollute the forum with opinions that do not reflect the will of Macedonians and the Macedonian Cause.

I called your suggestions "weak". If you call that a personal attack, so be it. I hope you might get over it. If you are hurt by it, you are weak. I also attack stupidity in the same way in real life. If you deserve it, you deserve it.

In other words YOU have absolutely nothing to lose if Macedonia is marginalized to the economic outskirts of europe for the next decades. Very nice of you.

The point is that RELEVANT TO MACEDONIA Bulgaria, Romania and Greece have gained lots and will continue to gain lots. Greece has obtained billions in hand outs, this has helped their infrastructure and internal institutions immensely. The free flow of many goods and people have cut down on huge administrative costs. If the EU is such a dog why is Macedonia, and many of her neighbors, trying to gain membership? Are they that stupid and you guys are that smart?

Finally, it is obvious that YOU, with your nice car and home, first world health care, first rate educational institutions, efficient government infrastructure, first rate infrastructure have absolutely NO IDEA what it is like to live full time in a second world country. You are all willing to sell your bretheren in Macedonia down the river so that YOU can maintain face in front of the Greeks in Sydney, Toronto and Melbourne. Shame on you.

A prefix will not change how I feel, will not change Macedonian history, it is too bad that you feel so shallow in your identity that adding North or Vardar to the name of the nation state that you DO NOT EVEN LIVE IN will make you feel compromised and inferior.
Shame on you.

I have a great deal to lose. The only true remnant of my ancestry exists in the Republic of Macedonia. Macedonians from Macedonia cannot be trusted to maintain their identity because they are under duress. You would rather the victim abused housewife is treated better as long as she shuts up and follows her master's rules. I would rather the abused housewife gets the best deal as all deserving women should.

I think Bulgaria is an excellent example for assessing the benefits of EU membership. How has it gained since joining the EU? In particular, how has it improved itself as compared to Macedonia? How do you think it will look after it has helped to bail out Greece (amongst others)?

Strive, if you are Macedonian, shame on you.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Strive;63268]How? My position is that the name of the state has absolutley no bearing on the integrity of the ethnic identitie(s) that live in the state. According to several threads in these same forums the Macedonian identity and culture has prospered for centuries, under duress during many long stretches, without the benefit of having a nation state with the name Macedonia. You have provided no arguments explaining why adding a prefix or suffix to the name Macedonia will compromise your identity.

You may be correct in reference to the Macedonian identity surviving through centuries of occupation, however the circumstances today are quite different. Centuries ago there was no such thing as being 'Greek Macedonian' or even 'Bulgarian Macedonian.' During this time, the likes of Greece and other neighbouring nations sought to suppress the Macedonian name and identity. In this sense the Macedonians were the sole proprietors of the Macedonian identity, and this was recognised.

The circumstances are quite different in the 21st century. Greece no longer suppresses the name Macedonia, instead in the last 20 years or so they have begun to promote and claim it as their own. Therefore we have several other nations in this day and age unlawfully competing for the Macedonian name.

If Macedonia were to change its name, this would only give the Greeks and Bulgarians an opportunity to pounce on the pure name, that being Macedonia, as Bratot explained in his last post. The Macedonian culture and identity would seize to prosper under its' rightful owner. As a result, we would assume a new identity and title and lose the Macedonian name and rich history permanently.

All to gain access to the EU and NATO? Seems like a joke to me.

[sf.]

Hello folks, I have been reading through your forum for days and this thread directed at Mr. Petkovski really caught my attention.

I have some questions for you:

1. Are you Macedonian?
2. Where in the world do you reside?
3. Could you give us an outline of the short to mid-term prospects for Macedonia, if it agrees to a name change such as Republic of Macedonia (Vardar)?

[Big Bad Sven]

Rogi hit the nail on the head.

Why is it that the poor macedonians have to be bullied and forced to change the name of THEIR country to join a failing organisation like the EU by a certain racist country that deny's the existence of the macedonian people.

That is not right and that is not far. You can even say its a form of blackmail.

In this discussion we have gone from outrageous claims that grease has "compromised" so much in the name dispute to know that there is no real "big deal" about changing our name to please grease - a country that does not recognize the macedonian people and is oppressing the macedonian people in grease.

And finally, as i mentioned before only a complete and utter fool would think that changing the countries name will be the end of it. It wont, as their have been suggestions in the media Grease would want the macedonians to change the name of their nationality, language and church. Thats how our identity, culture and history will be erased and "modified" after we accept a name change.

Only a ignorant fool would believe that Grease and the new greeks would be satisfied with a name change, Grease will NEVER accept that their are a people who speak MACEDONIAN and identify themselves as MACEDONIAN.

[Prolet]

There is one key word here Dignity (Dostoinstvo) why the hell should we loose it? Without it we are nothing we are not a country and we will bow our heads down.

Greece has no right to force us to change our name, there is no way we should change our name under any circumstances. If we dont respect ourselves nobody else will respect us.

The EU is in strife, the reason is so down economically is because of handouts that countries like Greece have been getting.

The difference when we were part of the Ottoman Empire and Yugoslavia was that we where under occupation now we are a free,democratic and independent country we have the right to exist and have a right to our name.

People, Dont get sucked into these provocations, these guys have their opinions then so be it we know where we stand and what we believe in which is our name Macedonia. Unfortunately some people are prepared to loose their dignity and thats a big shame but that doesnt mean that we have to loose ours.

Keep the Faith, Believe

We are Macedonians and we will remain so forever!

[Jankovska]

But that was not the point, Bratot. The claim put forth is that if a suffix or prefix is added to the name Macedonia then this will compromise the integrity of the ethnic Macedonian identity. This claim is irrelevant to how long a struggle has taken place for an independent state. My point was that it is claimed that Macedonians have lived in political entities not named Macedonia for centuries while maintaining their culture and identity. How does adding a suffix or prefix to the name Macedonia compromise the integrity of the Macedonian identity? It is your own position that your people have struggled for gaining their own state for centuries. This indicates that a Macedonian identity was alive and well regardless of what the name of the state they resided in was. Do you see my point?




Im not sure what point you are trying to make.

Is it your position that Macedonia will not gain economically from becoming a member of the EU? Why is the Macedonian government, then, pursuing membership? Are they that dumb?

My point is that it is easy for the arm chair political pundits in the diaspora to call the shots when they will bear none of the hardships that their kin will endure in their mother country if their wishes come true. It is easy for one to call a someone a traitor for even mentioning a compromise while they type from their 4 story house sitting 10 feet away from a full refridgerator knowing that they have a stable job to go to in the morning.

You are a total idiot. Just because someone is under someone's rule that person DOES NOT go puff and it's gone. That country still exists, it's just been concured by someone else. We were ruled by the Ottomans but we were Macedonians under their rule, we were ruled by many but the country and the people were nothing but Macedonian. Which part are you not clear with? The Romans ruled most of the world, the countries they ruled are not Italian now, are they? Or are you so thick to not get it?
Why don't you just give Ivo a call and take him out for a pint, stop wasting everyone's time.

[fyrOM]

Hahahahalolololol. I’m rolling on the floor people.

I have not read this thread for a long time as I saw it as pointless as talking to a spoiled brat who is deliberately trying to be argumentative in a stubborn form without reason just for the fun of lets see if I can get you mad.

I then saw the page number climb and got seduced into thinking there might be something worthwhile reading as surely the people who I have come to know are smarter than to entertain fools.

Nope. Dead wrong. You have explained the point from every angle possible in minute detail that a deaf and blind person would understand by now and yet Ivo and now Srive are in the negative and trying to maintain their position of I cant see the difference it would make…you haven’t explained you point.

They are riding you to get you mad.

Their arguments are imbecile. You know the saying what it means to entertain a fool…

Although one so called good out of this it gave you practice against the kind of stupidity we ie Macedonians personally and Macedonia will face in the not too distant future.

I don’t know the reach of the MTO so a clear victory and exposing Ivo and co for the illogical creatures that they are is victory and gives you the warm and fuzzy feeling but have you truly put these creatures in their place and shut them up.

I have said in the past we are not the same as the Jews but we have a number of similarities and as such we should look at their experiences and see if we can apply any of their successes to our own situation. No offence RTG and any other administrators but I doubt the MTO has the readership that the papers who degrade themselves by letting creatures like these be publish. The Jews would not let the fight end only in their own publications but instead would take the fight to the creatures publication. This is as much a war of public opinion as it is the diplomacy going on by the government.

As the saying goes all that evil needs to win is good men to do nothing.

There are many good men and women on this site.

[Strive]

Strive,

How do you justify the imposition of a prefix or suffix to the name of the Republic of Macedonia, against the will of its' citizens and the fundamental principles of national sovereignty, Sovereign Rights and Human Rights?

What accurate evidence, do you have Rogi, with regards to the will of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia? Some opinion poll? If the diaspora is so confident in the will of the citizens then why does a particular Macedonian Human rights organization feel the need to place ads in the Macednonian media to encourage the populace not to change the name? Wouldn't that message be beating a dead horse if the will of the people is already established and well known? Who are they trying to convince with those ads Rogi?

It is my opinion that a formal and democratic vote take place in the republic with regards to a name change. All voting age citizens should be educated on the political and economic ramifications of not adding a prefix or suffix to the name and then they should get a chance to cast a vote yay or nay. They are the ones that will have to live with the consequences, NOT YOU or me. The only thing people in the diaspora have to lose is not saving face in front of some nationalist Greeks in places like Toronto and Melbourne. I get the sense that is what most people who frequent this board are afraid of the most.

Your arguments are about the consequences of the addition of a prefix or suffix to the name of the State, whilst you bluntly ignore what comes before those arguments; the questions of Sovereignty, Law and Rights.

So this issue is largely based on "Law and Rights" and not on the claim put here by many members that changing the name of the state will compromise the integrity of the Macedonian ethncity? I have not seen one rational argument that explains how a name change will compromise the Macedonian culture or identity.

Furthermore, if this is an issue that is rooted in international law and human rights then why hasn't the Macedonian government taken Greece to international court and put an end to this years ago? If there is a law that states that country can name itself whatever it choses why are we wasting our time and why hasn't this been pursued via all the legal avenues available to the Macedonian administrations of the past 2 decades.

In order to reach the point of your argumentation, you must concede or accept a predisposed notion that would suggest a disrespect and disregard for the Sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia, and accept the notion that the Macedonians are unworthy of equal rights and are unworthy of their national sovereignty.

Again, is it your position that this is a legal issue more than it is an issue of the Macedonian ethnic identity being compromised? If it is a legal issue related to humantarian and or international law then it should be as simple as taking this up in the international court system. The EU and Nato should tell Greece to shove it since they are violating international law with their position of a name change for the republic of Macedonia. WHY HASN'T THIS HAPPENED if this issue is rooted in the violation of international law?