Ivo Petkovski - The Traitor

[julie]

IVO PLEASE RESPOND to the following that Bratot has placed in a succinct form.
Can everyone else please stay on topic or better still, start another thread
IVO WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING

Here are the questions and posts he owe us answers:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski
Ivo,


Another mindboggling assumption is that Greece has some how made a "concession". How can someone make a "concession" when they have no ownership of, or right to, the very "concession" they are supposedly making?

Finally, explain how the name "Republic of Northern Macedonia" is not renaming our state. Explain how this is not an attack on our identity or how it will prevent the defacto renaming of our people into "Northern Macedonians". Explain how this is not an abolition of our national sovereingty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sf.
Hello Ivo, thanks for coming over. Could you please expand on this point. What concessions has Greece made regarding the name Macedonia?
And what other concessions have they made?
How would you verbalise the expected concessions that RoM is supposed to make?
And in your mind, how do these concessions relate to the Greek ones, in terms of gravitas and consequences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great

You say the Ohrid agreement and the constitutional amendments are excellent steps for the Macedonian government. Do you actually know the content and nature of these changes? I will assume you do. Given your affirmation of the Ohrid agreement and the constitutional amendments, it means you embrace the notion that the will of the Macedonian people (in both an ethnic and national sense) is now strangled by the ethnic Albanian minority. You do understand how their vote means more than the Macedonian vote don't you?


I note you chose not to comment on the following issues I raised in an earlier post:
- Accession to the EU being absolutely measurable.
- What is the maddening uncertainty over Macedonia's official legitimacy as a state?
- Define the ultra-nationalistic sentiment.









Quote:


Could you be kind enough to remind us what sort of comrpomises undertook Greece?

Why is Greece insisting so hard on exclusivity over the name 'Macedonia'?

The concession Greece did from her position on the usage of the name 'Macedonia' by us was pure denial of Macedonian ethnicity since the meaning of that word has been made conditional to NOT symbolize the Macedonian ethnic identity.

That's why we were forced to change our ethnic symbols.

So the Greek aim to destroy the Macedonian ethnic identity remained, as a condition.

Ivo, what kind of compromise you are trying to imply having from Greek side?




Quote:
I’m definitely no Greek advocate - I think the problem mostly emanates from Greek insecurity, but if we’re honest, the Macedonians aggravate the issue with our own consid erable insecurities. I don’t think we need to be - we are now Macedonians, and the smallest compromise at the end of the process (i.e. Northern Macedonia) not only sends a message that the Macedonians know that nationalist chest-thumping isn’t what a modern European state does, but it also puts a (relatively) amicable end to this ridiculous dispute.

So far you are not convincing about the advocate you tend to be.

Insecurity doesn't have anything to do with the right to stand on your rightful position and defend yourself.

1. Even though the UN in 1948 adopted a resolution which strictly prohibited the introduction of new conditions for entry in this world organization we were still prohibited from entering the UN by our chosen name 'Macedonia'.

2. Greece enforced economic blockade on us 'embargo' in violation of article 5 of the GATT agreement which guarantees uninterrupted and obstacle free transit of all goods.
Than after the Interim Accord in 1995 was signed the European court dismissed the case in Strasburg against this Greek illegal blockade pretending that the blockade never happened at all.

3. Greece is obliged not to prevent the Republic of Macedonia from joining international organizations and associations in which Greece is a member according the article 11 from the Interim Accord.
Greece did not respected that right and its own international obligation when, undertook measures to block Macedonia’s entry into NATO at the Bucharest Summit.

Another classic example where politics dominated over fairness and justice.

4. Greece continuously uses the slogan “Macedonia is Greece” which implies territorial claims toward our tiny Republic.


And now you are trying to fool the readers of Guardian how it's time Macedonia finally accept ANOTHER 'compromise'?

A need to vetoing us?

If you look behind Greek politics with the name it's pretty clear that the problem they have is the name which defines the Macedonian peoples’ ethnic identity.
It's about the existence of a separate Macedonian ethnic identity which is hidden in the name of the country.


And if you look in advocating the discrimination against Roma population start with the existing EU members or maybe take a visit to Roma places such as Kosice in Slovakia. Before criticizing us on this issue make sure the EU has implemented their rights.

Here is an enlightening interview with Stavros Ligeros to point out to you and all other dellusioned Macedonians what are the Greek aims:

http://www.forum.com.mk/mobile/article/3957

A short compilation of his words:


Quote:
Не е прашање само името, туку и идентитетот.

Ниту на ниво на име на државата не може да се нарекувате Република Македонија, ниту на ниво на идентитет.

Како што на Кипар постојат Грци-Кипрани и Турци-Кипрани и велиме Гркокипрани и Туркокипрани, така и во Македонија има Грци кои се Гркомакедонци, Бугари кои се Бугаромакедонци, Албанци кои се Албаномакедонци и вие. Ве нарекуваме славомакедонци, но Грција нема никаква причина да ве крстува. Ако сакате вашата националност да ја определите со друга одредница - можете, но не можете вие да бидете Македонците

Да расчистиме. Ова што го велите е ваш личен став?
Веќе не. Тогаш, пред 17 години, беше мој личен став, но сега веќе е официјална политика. Ова што ви го велам е она што го кажа господин Караманлис на самитот на НАТО во Букурешт.

Не се согласувам дека треба да биде идентитетот македонски.
Мислам дека идентитетот треба да биде славомакедонски, или што друго одберете како одредница.

Нашиот проблем е дека не може да ги употребувате терминот македонски јазик и македонска нација затоа што на тој начин еден дел, едно парче, се претставува како целината Македонија.

А тоа е дека Македонија како географски поим не е татковина на само една нација. Таа е татковина на повеќе нации.

That's more less all about their intentions, trying to present the secondary identity of the population as primary while we Macedonians will lose our national identity for good.

Because for a local Greek living in Macedonia, being a Macedonian is his secondary local identity, but being a Macedonian for us in the RoM or anywhere else is PRIMARY identity as we do not have other identity to use contrary to the Greek where secondary he is 'Macedonian' and primary a Greek national.

And I will end these citations with his vision of a modern state vs your vision Ivo:


Quote:
Точно е дека на оние што не се изјаснуваа како Грци им беше ускратено нивното право. Тоа е вистина.
Но, знаете, државите си ги бранат сопствените интереси, тие не се хуманитарни организации.

Exactly. That's the reality and not some demagogy of yours.

As long as there is no ethnic source for the Macedonian identity, there can be no Macedonian ethnic identity and also no Macedonian minority in Greece!



What you are offering to us Ivo is the most humiliating retreat.

And why is that when before Yugoslavia’s breakup Greece officially used Macedonia’s historical and constitutional name then part of the Yugoslav Federation – (Socialist) Republic of Macedonia?

1. Never in its own history has Greece used the name “Macedonia” prior to August 1988.

2. In 1988 with a decree Greece renamed the "Northern province" to "Macedonian and Thrace region" by creating districts as named “Western Macedonia”, Central Macedonia” and “Eastern Macedonia and Thrace”.

The nude fact is - There never was nor is a Greek province called "Macedonia".

3. The Republic of Macedonia was the FIRST STATE to make use of the name MACEDONIA when proclaiming it's independent republic in 1944 and with international rights, rightly defined by “Qui prior est tempore, potior est jure”, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DISPUTE THAT NAME.

Even if Europe has given up on us we are going to fight for the European values by not allowing self serving politics to triumph over the justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

You speak of "numerous concessions", what other "concessions" has Greece made?

__________________

[Jankovska]

Originally Posted by IvoPetkovski

Thanks for the invite. Found this by googling my Macedonia blog and then saw you’d sent an invite to my Facebook, which I never open. Well now that I have found it, I’ll try to respond to some of the points here.

@RistoTheGreat, you say:



The Ohrid agreement and the constitutional amendments in 1995 were excellent steps for the Macedonian government, but more and more they are coming to seem like isolated incidents when the Macedonians have been anything less than completely unwilling to compromise. My concern is - how does this look from the outside? Greece have made numerous concessions over the years, the biggest one of course being the name ‘Macedonia’ itself. The argument was won then, and we won - rightly so.

I’m definitely no Greek advocate - I think the problem mostly emanates from Greek insecurity, but if we’re honest, the Macedonians aggravate the issue with our own considerable insecurities. I don’t think we need to be - we are now Macedonians, and the smallest compromise at the end of the process (i.e. Northern Macedonia) not only sends a message that the Macedonians know that nationalist chest-thumping isn’t what a modern European state does, but it also puts a (relatively) amicable end to this ridiculous dispute.

Then Greece would have no need to keep vetoing us from the EU. I said in the article that accession would help with bringing us up to European standard in representation for the Roma and Albanians - I know that the Ohrid agreement accommodated the Macedonian Albanians, but what’s needed is enforced legislation against systematic discrimination, across every layer of RoM society. Eventually, that’s what EU participation will bring. If any of you have ever set foot in Skopje, or Bitola, or anywhere in Macedonia you’ll know that hatred of Cigani and Shiptars is the norm for almost everyone. That’s what we need to move past if we’re ever going to be a successful 21st Century nation.

@Pluto & Bratot

I’m not the guy in the YouTube clip, but I just watched it. Violeta Ackovska is a dishonest debater - every time that other guy says anything, she accuses him of ‘caricaturing’ and then says what she was going to say anyway.

I agree with her that I don’t want anyone renaming me - but that danger passed in 1995 when the Greeks had to concede the name Macedonia. Right now the worst thing that could happen is that some smaller countries would have the name in official documents as ‘Republic of Northern Macedonia’.

And if we went this route, we’d have shown the world that we know how a modern state acts towards other states - by being pragmatic, instead of fanatical.

Greece has made no compromise whatsoever, never. We have had to accept the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia name which was the biggest mistake made by the Macedonian side.
Our country is Macedonia, we are Macedonians and if Greece or anyone else has a problem with that, that should be only their problem.
As for North Macedonia and so, are you really that naive? I thought you were like a big arse know it all guy? Greece wants us wiped out, they don't want our own existence. Why don't you use your 'talent' to speak on behalf of the Macedonians in Greece? What is your tought on the Egejci?
You are advocating EU here and us joining the EU but have you wondered what the EU is? You talk about the Romas and Albanians having greater rights but you have not mentioned the treatement given to the Egejci by Greece? The treatment we receive from the EU? We have to change who we are to join this club that is so deep in shit its laughable.
We must form a body that will work to show the Macedonians in the Republic what the EU really is.
As for you Ivo, the double standards are laughable. Truly mate, you need to grow up.

[Jankovska]

Originally Posted by IvoPetkovski

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I’ll try to cover what I think are the main points raised.

Well this seems to be a point of pride, but it’s interesting to think why people feel this strongly about it. The name change is a geographical designation, not a change of signifier - we’d still be Macedonian, and no one can change that. I think the Macedonians are just as collectively traumatised as the Greeks by the Ottoman invasion, and just as desperate to construct the myths that are perceived as necessary for a modern ethnic identity (Ackovska was honest on this point, to her credit).

If we’re honest, we can all acknowledge that being Macedonian, for us Slavs, is a relatively recent construct. Nothing wrong with that - it’s the same for all formerly occupied territories, and especially true in the Balkans where the national idea took root later than in Western Europe and elsewhere in the world. But 2/3 generations ago, we didn’t think we were Macedonians - the classification just didn’t make sense, we were Orthodox Christians and that was enough. Then, in the late 19th Century, the nation state as an idea swept through the region, and later still, in the 1930s/1940s, the Macedonians settled on that ethnic identity.

For me, those 60 years are enough to create the identity in reality. I’m comfortable with it, I can only be Macedonian, I’m not anything else - not FYROMian, Rumelian, Slavomacedonian, or the rest. But I don’t see why the identity can only be seen as legitimate if it’s projected back in time for the last 2,300 years, and in the face of the available facts. The ancient Macedonians were a Hellenicized culture, and therefore the modern culture that can most claim continuity with them is Greece. I don’t think that continuity is nearly as pronounced as some Greeks make out, but it’s dishonest to act like our Slavic culture has more continuity with the ancient Macedonians. It just doesn’t.

But as inhabitants of the region, I think we can claim that name. That’s why it’s right that we have done, but I don’t see it as a mortal sin to acknowledge that both the Macedonians and the Greeks are in a desperate scramble to piece together a continuous ethnic narrative that somehow stretches across and eclipses the Ottoman occupation. We should understand the Greek irrationality and stubbornness, because we’re just the same, and for the same reasons. And yes, I know that both sides have made compromises.

In fact, I don't see the 'Northern Macedonia' name as the best outcome, my original assertion was that I would find this tolerable, and I have tried to give some reasons for that. But there's equally an argument to be made for holding fast until Greece concede the constitutional name, it just means that we have to continue being embattled on all fronts for a while longer. It's this kind of constant strife in the political landscape that stops us from developing in terms of business, and using the revenue for better education and services, etc...basically progressing as a nation. That's what I really want to see.

The name Macedonia is who we are. If you are so stuck up with the EU and principals than isn't one of the basic human rights the right to call yourself whatever the hell you want?
Also for a novinar, you are not very nacitan, are you? Slav is a linguistic group not ethnic group, where do you get confused?
Another statement you made here is again laughable, how can you prove that the anicent Macedonians were Hellenized? Just because some lords and dords read and spoke the language? And how is Greece the only one to have right to anicent Macedonia, when modern Greece has nothing to do with anicent Greece? Where did you get confused?

[Jankovska]

Originally Posted by thessalo-niki

Legally speaking, the name Greece is ours, but the name Macedonia is not yours yet.
_________________________________
Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

Haha are you for real? Who made it legal? The people who moved over from Minor Asia and chose a name? Or the countries that recognise you under the name Greece?
Unlike you new Greeks we haven't moved from our territory but yet somehow we are not legal? Why? Because you and your gov are not happy about it?

[thessalo-niki]

I was refering to the state of things we are all aware of, not to the essense of the dispute. Let's not distract this thread, which is about Ivo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute
__________________________________________________
Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Jankovska]

Originally Posted by thessalo-niki

I was refering to the state of things we are all aware of, not to the essense of the dispute. Let's not distract this thread, which is about Ivo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute
__________________________________________________
Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

Again, are you for real? What makes a country/state/people non legal?

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by thessalo-niki

Legally speaking, the name Greece is ours, but the name Macedonia is not yours yet.

The Republic of Macedonia was the FIRST STATE (legal subject) to make use of the name MACEDONIA when proclaiming it's independent republic in 1944 and with international rights, rightly defined by “Qui prior est tempore, potior est jure” - (he who is earlier in time is stronger in law) applies.
This means that the first in time prevails over the others.

This property law is called - Priority of Time

He who has the precedency in time has the advantage in right, is the maxim of the law; not that time, considered barely in itself, can make any such difference, but because the whole power over a thing being secured to one person, this bars all others from obtaining a title to it afterwards.

That's why no one has the right to dispute our name.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by IvoPetkovski used to say

None of that alters the fact that the Macedonians living today have never been anything other than Macedonians, and should have the right to be known as such.

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

What has changed since you have written this? What will your (very public) opinion change to next time?

Originally Posted by IvoPetkovski

Nothing at all - that remains my position.

But you said this after you published your above statement:

Originally Posted by IvoPetkovski

The main argument has been won, and conceding "northern Macedonia" is a small price to pay to move forward.

So now Macedonians should have the right to be Northern Macedonians? There is no price big enough to warrant such a wholesale abandonment of integrity Ivo. You have done it in two sentences.

You keep fighting for the rights of the Roma and ethnic Albanians. I will focus and Macedonia, Macedonians and its other inhabitants ... in that order.

Again I note you are yet to explain your understanding of the Ohrid agreement and corresponding constitutional amendments. How much were you bought for Ivo?

[Strive]

Hello folks, I have been reading through your forum for days and this thread directed at Mr. Petkovski really caught my attention.

I see that there is a lot of venom directed at Mr. Petkovski for holding opinions that go against the grain of ideologies espoused by the diaspora.

The two major retorts that stand out, in my mind, are:

1. If the Republic of Macedonia adopts a prefix/suffix then this will compromise the integrity of the ethnic Macedonian identity.

2. Mr. Petkovski should stand silent since he lives in London and consequently will not bear any of the consequences of his views if they came to fruition.

My opinions with regards to the above are:

1. Many of you claim that ethnic Macedonians existed for centuries even though they had no official state or homeland. Most recently Macedonians resided in Yugoslavia. Before that it was the Ottoman empire. If the ancestors of Macedonians resided under such conditions (ie no nation state as their own) for centuries while maintaining their identity and culture then how can the current ethnic Macedonian identity be compromised by adding a prefix/suffix to the name of the country? After all, three decades ago Macedonians lived in Yugoslavia, yet they maintained their identity.

2. The same people who make this accusation live in the cushy suburbs of Toronto, Melbourne and Sydney. Your forefathers were/are hard working people that have done well for themselves. What consequences will YOU bear, from your lovely homes abroad, if Macedonia does not join Nato or the EU ? Is it not a little unfair to be calling people out as traitors and calling for their heads for even suggesting a compromise while YOU will bear no economic consequences for what you wish for?


Regards

Strive

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by Strive

Hello folks, I have been reading through your forum for days and this thread directed at Mr. Petkovski really caught my attention.

I see that there is a lot of venom directed at Mr. Petkovski for holding opinions that go against the grain of ideologies espoused by the diaspora.

The two major retorts that stand out, in my mind, are:

1. If the Republic of Macedonia adopts a prefix/suffix then this will compromise the integrity of the ethnic Macedonian identity.

2. Mr. Petkovski should stand silent since he lives in London and consequently will not bear any of the consequences of his views if they came to fruition.

My opinions with regards to the above are:

1. Many of you claim that ethnic Macedonians existed for centuries even though they had no official state or homeland. Most recently Macedonians resided in Yugoslavia. Before that it was the Ottoman empire. If the ancestors of Macedonians resided under such conditions (ie no nation state as their own) for centuries while maintaining their identity and culture then how can the current ethnic Macedonian identity be compromised by adding a prefix/suffix to the name of the country? After all, three decades ago Macedonians lived in Yugoslavia, yet they maintained their identity.

First of all the strive and struggle for having own free Macedonian state is centuries old.

If we have it finally, why would we compromise it now by changing our names when we have made it so far?


The prefix/sufix is already defined with the determination - Republic of.

And yes, Yugoslavia was a FEDERATION where Macedonians were addmited as separate nation and got their free republic. Which is another argument described upper in my replay to Thesalo-niki's legal aspect.

2. The same people who make this accusation live in the cushy suburbs of Toronto, Melbourne and Sydney. Your forefathers were/are hard working people that have done well for themselves. What consequences will YOU bear, from your lovely homes abroad, if Macedonia does not join Nato or the EU ? Is it not a little unfair to be calling people out as traitors and calling for their heads for even suggesting a compromise while YOU will bear no economic consequences for what you wish for?

Macedonian diaspora even under Turkish or between the 2 WW were the core of Macedonian movement.

A person like Misirkov, the Gemigjii, the whole VMRO intelligence and many other influental examples were working from immigration and yes they have set the frames of the Macedonian idealogy in last few centuries.

If I use your biased logic than what kind of priviliges I would have of Macedonia joining NATO, there are no benefits from it either, for me personally.

And if you check the informations about how much money go into Macedonia from the Diaspora you should not come up with such absurds since every single one of us have his relatives, families and properties back home in Macedonia.

Spreading dellusioned hopes for economic prosperity by joining NATO/EU by all costs is an act of betrayal since it's used to cheat and manipulate the people for the benefit of outsiders.

It is same like the paedophile person is promissing money to a child if it pose nude to him or let being abused by him, do you wish that for your own children?