Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Carlin]

Academicians and politicians: "The agreement confirms the Macedonian identity"

https://tv21.tv/mk/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B...-%D0%B5%D0%B4/

In the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts there are different opinions about the Prespa agreement. MANU's first man, Taki Fiti, believes that the name dispute is a difficult and painful issue. However, he adds that Macedonia now has a historic chance to secure territorial integrity, protection of Macedonian identity and move towards Euro-Atlantic integrations.

"Macedonia's accession to the EU remains our strategic goal. Observed from the economic point of view, there is no alternative to the country's development perspectives outside the Euro-Atlantic integration process, "said Taki Fiti.

Prime Minister Zoran Zaev once again, this time before the academics, claimed that the Macedonian identity and language were sealed once and for all.

"We chose to walk bravely towards the future. We are not slaves to the past. We go forward without fear and without prejudice. We know who we are and what we want. We should not succumb to the emotions that occur during each change. If we rationally think about it we lose nothing, and we can get everything, "Zaev said.

[Carlin]

VMRO-DPMNE still has not adopted a position on the referendum despite the announced press conference at 10pm.

Link:
https://1tv.mk/makedonija/%D0%B2%D0%...5%D0%BD%D0%B4/

Update:

Мицкоски за референдумот: Донесовме одлука секој граѓанин да постапи според сопствено убедување

Нашата татковина е пред крстопат и ова се историски одлуки. Треба да се каже дека со прифатеното до сега Владата ги сруши сите преговарачки позиции градени до сега, рече лидерот на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, Христијан Мицкоски на вечерашната прес-конференција од седиштето на партијата. Мицкоски рече дека опозициската партија донела одлука секој граѓанин на референдумот да постапи според сопственото убедување.

https://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politi...postapi-spored

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The only way to avoid the hook or by crook scenario would be to boycott en masse...I think the push to encourage a large voter turn out is to legitimise the first stage of the referendum process and then the manipulation of the final 'result' can be easily achieved.

They will get a substantial turnout of Albanians and turncoats. It will be enough to sell a "mandate" for the change in my opinion. It's why I suggested a separate vote for NO. And huge resources should have been thrown at it in my opinion.

[Big Bad Sven]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

They will get a substantial turnout of Albanians and turncoats. It will be enough to sell a "mandate" for the change in my opinion. It's why I suggested a separate vote for NO. And huge resources should have been thrown at it in my opinion.

That has been my argument as well.

37% of the population is not macedonian. I am confident all albanians will come out to vote to troll macedonia. I doubt you will get much loyalty from meme nationalities like torbeshi os bosnians who put allah ahead of macedonia. Gypsies can be bought with money.

I am very confident almost all of the non-macedonians will vote for a name change, they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving up the name and getting into NATO and possibly EU.

So you only need 13% more to make it 50% of the population and thus a 'legit' turnout. With all of the SDSM loyalists, desperate people to get out and uneducated boomers who beleive everything they see on TV - they can get to 50% easily.

Thats why i agree with you Risto - there should have been a massive push to educate all macedonians on how important it is to come out and vote no.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

They will get a substantial turnout of Albanians and turncoats. It will be enough to sell a "mandate" for the change in my opinion. It's why I suggested a separate vote for NO. And huge resources should have been thrown at it in my opinion.

Unfortunately there was no political element to sway this as it was seen earlier on the side or lack off political will to push for a NO vote.

The turncoats do not want to be seen Anti EU and NATO or they were simply bought earlier on.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by Big Bad Sven

That has been my argument as well.

37% of the population is not macedonian. I am confident all albanians will come out to vote to troll macedonia. I doubt you will get much loyalty from meme nationalities like torbeshi os bosnians who put allah ahead of macedonia. Gypsies can be bought with money.

I am very confident almost all of the non-macedonians will vote for a name change, they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving up the name and getting into NATO and possibly EU.

So you only need 13% more to make it 50% of the population and thus a 'legit' turnout. With all of the SDSM loyalists, desperate people to get out and uneducated boomers who beleive everything they see on TV - they can get to 50% easily.

Thats why i agree with you Risto - there should have been a massive push to educate all macedonians on how important it is to come out and vote no.

But that is assuming the 37% is of voting age, i honestly believe the referendum can only be valid if there is fraud/manipulation. The people in Macedonia don't care or simply not interested in anything. Hopefully the idleness of the Macedonian population is in full throttle on the 30th but with no law or operating institutions who knows what will happen.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Gocka

You guys wouldn't believe the level of idiocy expressed in some of the private conversations we have had with big players involved in the "resistance".

I will tell you all right here right now, there is no conspiracy here, no shocking developments, just plain old naivety, lack of organization, lack of intellectual capacity, and stubbornness. We are a useless people, and that has never been more clear to me than in these past few months while trying to get something done.

Nobody would stand in your way for trying.
However, the futility is obvious. It's like trying to read poetry to cavemen.
This will all happen simply because RoMacedonians have no incentive to do anything. They know what they are. They don't care what they will become.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Nobody would stand in your way for trying.
However, the futility is obvious. It's like trying to read poetry to cavemen.
This will all happen simply because RoMacedonians have no incentive to do anything. They know what they are. They don't care what they will become.

There are even DPNE/Mickoski supporters who are claiming that his speech was a call to boycott.

Sadly, there are more stupid people out in the world now then ever it seems.

[Tomche Makedonche]

As I said, unless there is some kind of uprising, Macedonia will be implementing this agreement.

The referendum is consultative (plebiscite) meaning the government is not obliged to do anything in Light of turnout or votes, the government has already commenced ratifying parts of the agreement, joint committees and plans have been established with Greece and NATO as per the agreement, the opposition (DPNE) are on board with the agreement (they have washed their hands of it), western backers have openly expressed that any positive result regardless whether the threshold is reached would be considered a mandate to implement the agreement. This has already gone beyond any kind of democratic, consultative or lawful process, it is merely a fictional show that needs to be seen at being undertaken for the sake of public perception.

Macedonia will implement its part of the agreement (even though it is likely Greece is not yet done with it). These spineless donkeys on both sides of politics don’t give a fuck about anything except how to steal the most money for themselves. The only way to really stop this train is an uprising against the government and the whole political heirarchy.

[Gocka]

Its exactly like trying to read poetry to cavemen.

The worst part is that there are people trying to do something, actually more people than I would have originally expected. The problem is that that Macedonians are incapable of both leading and following, which leaves a consistent trail of stupid and useless efforts which only further discourage other from taking part.

There are plenty of anti name change groups, but no unified plan. We have all somehow stumbled on boycott, which in my opinion is right up the alley of what Macedonians desire. A way to say you are doing something, without actually having to do something.

We have tried to convince everyone and their mother that a boycott will only serve to skew the referendum results heavily in favor of the yes vote. But no one seems to understand a couple simple facts.

First and most important but apparently lost on everyone is that the referendum is non binding, and yet the number one strategy is to try and delegitimize something that is already illegitimate? It's totally naive and falls into the same old Macedonian mentality of going for a technical win. Similar to Rogi's comment about the president needing to sign it. We are trying to play this rules based technical game, when that all when out the window from day one.

Second the demographics are not in our favor for a boycott to even succeed. Forget the the reasoning in the first reason above, you simply can't have a successful boycott because of the numbers. This is what I meant by believing our own bullshit. Macedonians refuse to believe that they make up at best 2/3 of the country, and of that 2/3 at least a third is for the name change publicly, and no one knows how many are for it privately. On top of that boycott organizers are under the impression that they can achieve 100% unity in boycotting with people who are against the name change. In what world can you ever convince 100% of any group to do anything. There is a strong likelihood that the anti name change group may even be in the minority, in which case a boycott makes even less sense.

We have spent 30 years perpetuating idiotic conspiracy theories, and now when we actually need a real world response, no one even knows what that looks like. No one in that country has ever tried to lead a resistance, so they are doing it like first graders.

One simple question that we could never get an answer to while dealing with various groups was this:

What happens the day after the referendum? What are you plans if the boycott fails, what are your plans if the succeeds?

NOTHING, or the hit "Its a secret"

So to summarize for all of you: The plan is to sit home, do nothing(claim you are boycotting), and hope turnout is under 50%, and then further hope that because of that fact that Zaev and co just poof and disappear, like in a fucking harry potter movie.

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Nobody would stand in your way for trying.
However, the futility is obvious. It's like trying to read poetry to cavemen.
This will all happen simply because RoMacedonians have no incentive to do anything. They know what they are. They don't care what they will become.

Our suggestion to all involved was to forgo the boycott and instead put those people on the streets and stop the referendum. Block the voting locations. We have enough numbers for that to work, but alas, the geniuses in Macedonia opted to go for the one route that required the least effort and is guaranteed to fail catastrophically.

I told Bojkatiram directly, "Don't be shocked or disappointed when on October 1st, the referendum has 55% turnout, and a 70% approval. You have been warned"

Uprising? LOL One of the reasons for not blocking voting stations was, "They will send police, they might hit us".

I can tell you with certainty, there is not a single group that is planning anything that can even remotely be considered as an uprising.

We thought we could enlist the help of the president, but he won't even be in the country during the referendum.

At this point all we can hope for is that the Greek citizens go nuts and stop this madness. Although I think even those baboons know a good deal when hey see one.

I'm still not convinced that a majority of Macedonians are even against this.

Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche

As I said, unless there is some kind of uprising, Macedonia will be implementing this agreement.