Edinstveni Makedonski Zborovi - Unique Macedonian Words (postable)

[Дени]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Welcome back Дени.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

What about the word 'bendisa', do you think that is an Ottoman loan also?

Most definitely from beğenmek.

EDIT: Just came across this too.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

How did this word enter Serbian from Macedonian?

Not sure, I'm only going by what HJP says.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Дени

Most definitely from beğenmek.

Thanks for the link. How would bendisa develop from beğenmek? Is it because Macedonian dropped the internal syllable or was the nasal feature applied to the -g which turned it into -nd? If it did develop from this Turkish word, is there a pattern of other Macedonian words developing in the same manner? What about the recurring -(d)isa suffix in words like bendisa, kandisa, paraldisa, etc, how does that fit into the picture?

Not sure, I'm only going by what HJP says.

It could be as a result of our literature from the 19th century being exposed to them.

[Дени]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Thanks for the link. How would bendisa develop from beğenmek? Is it because Macedonian dropped the internal syllable or was the nasal feature applied to the -g which turned it into -nd?

<Ğ> is a sort of silent letter. The -mek / -mak is just an inflectional suffix.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

If it did develop from this Turkish word, is there a pattern of other Macedonian words developing in the same manner? What about the recurring -(d)isa suffix in words like bendisa, kandisa, paraldisa, etc, how does that fit into the picture?

Seems like it. I've been trying to compare Turkish and Macedonian variants, but I'm not noticing any pattern which would explain that -д-. Anyway, here's a little excerpt from Граматика на македонскиот јазик:

§ 279. -са. Оваа наставка што се јавува и со повеќе проширувања, по потекло е од грчкиот јазик, па се среќава главно и во глаголи примени од грчкиот и турскиот јазик, кои се речиси сите од свршен вид: киниса, ареса, наваса, вјаса (несвршено), курдиса, куртулиса, тептиса, бојадиса. Проширена во -оса, -јоса таа се придава и кон некои наши зборови: црвоса, гнојоса, сироса, чевлоса се, брадоса, песоса се, петлоса, тревјоса. Сп.: очите крвјосаа — брадосаните мажи (В. Малески). — А пак едни велеле дека била млада Катерина, затоа се свапиросала (М. Цепенков).

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do you agree with that assessment, namely, that it is a result of Greek influence? Does the same apply for the word 'you' облечи се and оди си?

[Дени]

Perhaps Onur would be kind enough to list a few of the different paradigms of each verb.

• бајалдиса : bayılmak
• бендиса : beğenmek
• илдиса : ilmek
• кандиса : kandırmak
• капладиса : kaplamak
• кирлиса : kirletmek ~ kirlenmek
• сардиса : sarmak

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Do you agree with that assessment, namely, that it is a result of Greek influence?

Yes, from the Greek -σα. It's actually very old and was used in the oldest OCS texts for Greek loans (one example I remember is власфимисати, 'to blaspheme' < βλασφημῶ, ἐβλασφήμησα).

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Does the same apply for the word 'you' облечи се and оди си?

No, those clitics are related to себе.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That would be good, but I doubt it, as he seems to have taken a holiday from here after some difference of opinions with myself. I can ask some Turkish friends when I get a chance.

[Mygdon]

what about наоѓа?

[Po-drum]

Originally Posted by Дени

• бајалдиса : bayılmak
• бендиса : beğenmek
• илдиса : ilmek
• кандиса : kandırmak
• капладиса : kaplamak
• кирлиса : kirletmek ~ kirlenmek
• сардиса : sarmak

Yes, from the Greek -σα. It's actually very old and was used in the oldest OCS texts for Greek loans (one example I remember is власфимисати, 'to blaspheme' < βλασφημῶ, ἐβλασφήμησα).

According to M. Phasmer antic macedonian suffixes -issa and -st- are remnants of illyrian substratum.
If your assumptions are truth, than we should find this words/forms in the greek language..

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Дени

бајалдиса : bayılmak
бендиса : beğenmek
илдиса : ilmek
кандиса : kandırmak
капладиса : kaplamak
кирлиса : kirletmek ~ kirlenmek
сардиса : sarmak

Deni, spoke with a Turkish friend and these are the different ways that kandırmak can be used (he told me that the word basically means to 'trick'):

kandırmak - trick
kandırıyorum - tricking
kandırdım - (you got) tricked
kandırıldım - (i got) tricked
kandırdın - (he got) tricked
kandırıldım mı? - (did i get) tricked?
kandırıldın mı? - (did you get) tricked?

Hope that is correct. Only had a few moments, will ask him about some of the others when I see him next.

[Дени]

Originally Posted by artemi

what about наоѓа?

Here we have the PSl. root hodŭ; this word is fairly new and is formed with на-. The /х/ was lost, and /ѓ/ is expected from the palatalization of /д/. Cf. Russian находить.

Originally Posted by Po-drum

According to M. Phasmer antic macedonian suffixes -issa and -st- are remnants of illyrian substratum.
If your assumptions are truth, than we should find this words/forms in the greek language..

I don't follow.

That particular suffix (-са) is used for Greek and Turkish loans, just like how -ира is from German but used for almost all foreign verbs.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Deni, spoke with a Turkish friend and these are the different ways that kandırmak can be used (he told me that the word basically means to 'trick'):

There's that <d>! I wonder if that's where it came from in Macedonian...

So the original Turkish word has a few uses (at least according to this online dictionary); Macedonian has the second meaning, but I'm assuming the more common use—"to agree"—is a local innovation.