Macedonians and their 'slave' names, time to change?

[Voltron]

. No one in Turkey imposed them to get these Turkish surnames. That Turkish names was their true, original (sur)names. Think why? it`s because their mothertongue was Turkish and they knew nothing about Greek language. That includes their bibles, it was Turkish too, issued by Istanbul patriarchy.

Onur, you really dont know what your talking about. Are you referring to the Cappodocian or Karamanli's ? You are using one example to represent all the Greeks in that once thrived in Turkey.

Just think about that; Why the Greeks from Istanbul and Izmir city center never had Turkish (sur)names [maybe except one family among 100] while nearly all the so-called Greeks from inland Anatolia, Cappadocia, Blacksea area only had Turkish names??? Who baptized the parents of Kara-zafer [the LAOS thug] in Anatolia with Turkish names and with baptizing prayers sung in Turkish again?? A priest appointed by Istanbul patriarchy. Why do you think they were all doing this in Turkish for centuries, nearly for millenia??? You know the answer of this question, don't make me repeat.

Now, you are contradicting yourself. Anyway, there is no shame nor is it completely extraordinary to change your surname to adopt to your surroundings. If you look on a map you will notice that Cappodocia / Karman is right smack in the middle surrounded by Turks. It would only be natural to adjust including adopting a Turkish suffix for last name. We do it all the time in the Diaspora but that doesnt mean we are automatically British or Anglo Saxons. We also have Church Sermons in English as well. You really make too much out of it.

Btw, i know that when Turkish named christians arrived in Greece in 1923, many of them changed their surnames by dropping "-ouglu" and added "-idis, -is, -lis, -os" instead. So, the "-ouglu"`s you see in Greece today are only the half of the ones in 1923.

yeah yeah, you know everything.

And dont try to make it sound like everything was rosy in Turkey. If you think nothing was imposed on the natives over there than your really more delusional than I thought. There is always reasons to adopt to your surroundings being fear, incentives or just to make your surname pronouncable in an area where your language is not spoken. All of the above were applied to Greeks as well. We dont hold it against them either. The only time I would have an issue was if they converted their religion. Only then are they sellouts.

Risto said " "os" and "is" sound Greek (or Latvian in the case of "is")
Changing my name from Miliankos to Milanko made a huge change in people's assumptions about my ethnic identity. Surely you would understand this. "

I understand Risto, Just saying that its all relative on how you look at it. We have changed names to American like Anniston, doesnt make her a brit though...not the best example but still. I know you will say it was imposed and that is the difference. So I understand this, but in the case I brought up with Onur and SOM the "oglou" for certain Greeks wasnt always willing. It was probably taken to make their lives easier just the same.

[United MKD]

I am very proud of my surname.It's one of a kind in the world.Only my family has it. It originates from Dojran. It's consisted of a naun and suffix.
But I've always wondered why the suffix is djiev-џиев.That "џи-dzi-dji" in my surname, I guess, has some sort of ottoman influence in it? Maybe Onur could help me out?

Me too, only my family has my surname. It's not your common, Stojanovski, Trajkovski, Jovanovski, Ivanovski, Popovski etc etc. My last name also seems to have a Turkish influence.

[DedoAleko]

Can you write in Latin chars, so i can read properly but that "-dji" suffix is Turkish, used to create noun from a word. The suffix "-dji" [written as -ci in Turkish] usually defines a person who does a particular job or occupied with a particular work. Tell me your surname, so maybe i can tell what it means. The word b4 the -dji suffix is a Macedonian word?

Thanks Onur,that was very helpful. Very interesting you mention that "dji" is written as "ci" in Turkish,because when somebody mentions or addresses my family in general they say: -djici.
I could use my grandmothers surname as an example because it also has the same suffix.
I've seen it as "Hadjilenova" and "Adjilenova" and if you address to people from that family you would say something like: "She is from Adjilenci."
If you dismentle the surname (roughly), I think it means Pilgramage Elena (Lena).Would you agree?
I must mention that she was A hard-core christian and the whole family in general.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Sure. They are afraid they will be reported back home in stari kraj. That the Greek spies (former Macedonians or Albanians usually) will have proof that former Greek nationals are causing trouble for Greece. That their relatives in Greece will suffer as a consequence. There land will be confiscated. They will not be allowed to return to their people and homeland. Some concerns are valid to this day.

Which of those concerns do you consider truly valid today? Did your relatives have their land confiscated after you reverted back to your original surname? Were you prevented from entering Greece because of this?

..........in the case I brought up with Onur and SOM the "oglou" for certain Greeks wasnt always willing. It was probably taken to make their lives easier just the same.

Which "certain" Greeks? Do you have any evidence at all that the 'oglou' suffix was imposed on those who came to identify as 'Greeks' post-1923, in the manner in which your racist ancestors imposed the 'os', 'is', etc on the Macedonians?

[Voltron]

Which of those concerns do you consider truly valid today? Did your relatives have their land confiscated after you reverted back to your original surname? Were you prevented from entering Greece because of this?

Which "certain" Greeks? Do you have any evidence at all that the 'oglou' suffix was imposed on those who came to identify as 'Greeks' post-1923, in the manner in which your racist ancestors imposed the 'os', 'is', etc on the Macedonians?

I believe Risto was being sarcastic SOM.

No, i dont have any evidence because its not something I really care too much about. My conclusion is based on how the Kurds alone are treated. They have certain letters in the Kurdish alphabet that are outlawed in Turkey to prevent them to use them in daily use. Their has always been a constant attempt to Turkify them by labeling Mountain Turks. We all know how that went.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I believe Risto was being sarcastic SOM.

He said some concerns are valid to this day, I will wait for him to answer, he doesn't need you as his spokesperson.

No, i dont have any evidence........

I know you don't, because it wasn't imposed, hence the reason why the comparison is BS.

[Voltron]

How were the surnames under the Ottoman empire ? Was it in its orginal form ?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Which surnames?

[Voltron]

Which surnames?

Macedonian Surnames. Were they kept in its original form ?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prior to the 19th century there were few Macedonian (or other Balkan Slavic language) names with formalised suffixes. Croatia is a good example where many of them remained without formalised suffixes. But that is beside the point, because suffixes such as 'ov', 'ev' and 'ski' are all linguistically Macedonian and are used in everyday speech. The suffixes 'os' and 'is' are foreign to the Macedonian language, and they have been for well over 1000 years because of the manner in which Slavic languages have developed in general.

[Mygdon]

we should abandon all the serbianized names...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Which serbianised surnames? Those that end in 'ich', or something else?

[Onur]

Onur, you really dont know what your talking about. Are you referring to the Cappodocian or Karamanli's ? You are using one example to represent all the Greeks in that once thrived in Turkey.

According to Karakashidou`s findings, about ~400.000 of one million immigrants who gone to Greece had Turkish as mothertongue and without any Greek knowledge. And the rest of ~600.000 was from city centers in Aegean coasts, having fully Greek names and speaking Romaika. ~400.000 people is not just "one example", they were representing half of the immigrant population in Greece.

It would only be natural to adjust including adopting a Turkish suffix for last name. We do it all the time in the Diaspora but that doesnt mean we are automatically British or Anglo Saxons. We also have Church Sermons in English as well. You really make too much out of it.

There is always reasons to adopt to your surroundings being fear, incentives or just to make your surname pronouncable in an area where your language is not spoken. All of the above were applied to Greeks as well.

Ottoman empire was not like today`s England, USA. There was no racism and everyone had their own community rules, laws according to their religions. There was absolutely no pressure or fear about expressing their own identity because there was no today`s concept of nation states. Like i told you several times, the stories they thought you in schools or your local priest told you are just lies.

If there was pressure, fear, scaremongering inside Ottoman society, then why only the Anatolian christians and Gagauz in balkans had Turkish names??? Why Jews had no Turkish names, why RTG`s grandparent`s name wasn't Milankouglu, why DedoAleko`s name wasn't Lenaouglu??? Macedonians was surrounded by Turks too, just like Anatolia. Then why there was/is not even single orthodox with Turkish name in Macedonia??? You kept name calling muslim Albanians as "Turko-Albos" here, if they were so fond of Turks then why there was no Albanians with Turkish surnames???

Do not try to verify your false beliefs Voltron, it doesn't work. About half of the immigrants of 1923 was Turkish christians and your analogies here about -os and -ouglu fails. Period (!!!) If you guys had no paranoid, unhealthy society in Greece, these formerly Turkish speaking immigrants could have confessed their true identity in there but they cant. Karakashidou did once and LAOS thugs destroyed her properties in Greece. We have no such paranoia in Turkey and Cretans here have no problem expressing their grandparents Greek roots. They are not as many as Turkish christians in Greece because your white skirt wearing christian Arvanite brethren massacred the rest of Greek muslims but we didn't do that to Turkish christians here.

I could use my grandmothers surname as an example because it also has the same suffix.
I've seen it as "Hadjilenova" and "Adjilenova" and if you address to people from that family you would say something like: "She is from Adjilenci."
If you dismentle the surname (roughly), I think it means Pilgramage Elena (Lena).Would you agree?

I think we cannot say that -dji -ci is Ottoman era thing anymore, because i saw 1000s of words with -dji in Macedonian language once, in an article about Turkish-Macedonian language relations. It seems like you simply adopted that suffix in your language, probably it`s because practical to derive new nouns from words by using these suffixes. Btw afaik, Bulgarians uses these suffixes too.

Hadji is a semitic word, probably existed in Hebrew, Aramic, Arabic and all others, meaning a person who did pilgrimage. The word "pilgrimage" is a Latin/French equivalent of it. In Ottoman era, people who really did pilgrimage or simply the people who had religious duties was adopting that surname, regardless of their faith, whether christian, muslim or jew. I mean there was jews, muslims and christians with hadji surname. Their ancestors was either pilgrims who gone to Jerusalem, Mecca or they were simply priests, hodjas (imams), rabbis. It was a tradition to call people as "Hodja" in Ottoman era if that particular person were priest, imam or rabbi.

So i agree to your explanation. Hadjilenova means Hadji Lena. Your grandmother`s family was either really gone to Jerusalem for pilgrimage or they were just priests.

[mila]

There used to be a tele-series called "Roots" that showed Africans who were brought from Africa to be sold as slaves. They were forced to abandon their original names and take Western names. The main character was a boy called Kunta Kinte who was forced to be called Toby by his master.

In much the same way we have Macedonians who were forced to have Greek names in Greece. Once they left Greece, they kept the Greek names. Astounding!

The land your family owns in Greece. Have you explored the legalities of proving your claim to the land? What makes you believe a name change will dilute any such claim?

The only thing stopping you from changing your name is fear ... perhaps tied in with a bit of apathy. Sometimes you just have to think things through to their logical conclusion.

Either way it doesn't affect me, because I'm only half macedonian through my mum so its not my last name, nor is it hers now that she is married. I asked mum and baba, they just said its because they have land, I guess baba thinks if they (baba and vojce) change back their surname they will forfeit their ownership. I don't really blame them for having that belief though, considering how the greeks are. And I guess after 40 years of being in Australia, having kids and grandkids with the surname etc. there is most probably some apathy tied in there also.

[El Bre]

Or Spanish for that matter. I remember meeting Macedonians in the US and when they told me they were Macedonian I said " Oh, your Greek " without them even mentioning their surname. I was dumbfounded, couldnt figure out what they meant. Needless to say, This was years ago.

I guess ignorance is the by product of trying to camoflage the existance of an entire segment of a society.

It's kind of like going to Quebec from Alberta and wondering why everyone is speaking French.