Ivo Petkovski - The Traitor

[Big Bad Sven]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I’ll try to cover what I think are the main points raised.

Well this seems to be a point of pride, but it’s interesting to think why people feel this strongly about it. The name change is a geographical designation, not a change of signifier - we’d still be Macedonian, and no one can change that. I think the Macedonians are just as collectively traumatised as the Greeks by the Ottoman invasion, and just as desperate to construct the myths that are perceived as necessary for a modern ethnic identity (Ackovska was honest on this point, to her credit).

If we’re honest, we can all acknowledge that being Macedonian, for us Slavs, is a relatively recent construct. Nothing wrong with that - it’s the same for all formerly occupied territories, and especially true in the Balkans where the national idea took root later than in Western Europe and elsewhere in the world. But 2/3 generations ago, we didn’t think we were Macedonians - the classification just didn’t make sense, we were Orthodox Christians and that was enough. Then, in the late 19th Century, the nation state as an idea swept through the region, and later still, in the 1930s/1940s, the Macedonians settled on that ethnic identity.

For me, those 60 years are enough to create the identity in reality. I’m comfortable with it, I can only be Macedonian, I’m not anything else - not FYROMian, Rumelian, Slavomacedonian, or the rest. But I don’t see why the identity can only be seen as legitimate if it’s projected back in time for the last 2,300 years, and in the face of the available facts. The ancient Macedonians were a Hellenicized culture, and therefore the modern culture that can most claim continuity with them is Greece. I don’t think that continuity is nearly as pronounced as some Greeks make out, but it’s dishonest to act like our Slavic culture has more continuity with the ancient Macedonians. It just doesn’t.

But as inhabitants of the region, I think we can claim that name. That’s why it’s right that we have done, but I don’t see it as a mortal sin to acknowledge that both the Macedonians and the Greeks are in a desperate scramble to piece together a continuous ethnic narrative that somehow stretches across and eclipses the Ottoman occupation. We should understand the Greek irrationality and stubbornness, because we’re just the same, and for the same reasons. And yes, I know that both sides have made compromises.

In fact, I don't see the 'Northern Macedonia' name as the best outcome, my original assertion was that I would find this tolerable, and I have tried to give some reasons for that. But there's equally an argument to be made for holding fast until Greece concede the constitutional name, it just means that we have to continue being embattled on all fronts for a while longer. It's this kind of constant strife in the political landscape that stops us from developing in terms of business, and using the revenue for better education and services, etc...basically progressing as a nation. That's what I really want to see.

Wow, that’s the probably the biggest load of garbage I have ever read on this forum. Easily the worst thing I have read here. I personally am having my doubts about you being the real Ivo as you seem to keep going on about the poor grik ”suffering” under ottoman occupation and your view on the people in the Balkans is that people are either Griks or “slavs”. Signs of a grik if you ask me, but if you are the real Ivo then you are nothing more then a sell-out grkoman and if you had any decency in you would stop spreading rubbish about the Macedonians through the internet.

But I will play along….

Macedonia and Macedonians don’t just have a “60 year” history – if you were a real Macedonian and decided to spend a few hours researching into Macedonian history you will find Macedonians fighting for a Macedonia and claiming to be nothing more then Macedonians and claiming alexander the great as far back as the 1800’.s With a bit more work you can even go more back into history to find Macedonians.

You talk about the “slavs” – who are they exactly? Are you talking about the bosniaks, serbs, Bulgarian slavs and croats that live in Macedonia? Or are you talking about Czechs, Poles or Ukranians?
What is this “Slavic culture” you talk about? I used to go to many Polish and Slovene culture nights and I can certainly say their culture is totally different to the Macedonian one. Maybe you should stop just hanging out with griks?

Finally I know you are definitely lying about the griks and the rest of our idiot neighbours just being happy with “Northern Macedonia”. There is absolutely NO WAY that the griks will accept our peoples name and language to be simply Macedonian. If we where to accept Northern Macedonia it just shows our neighbours we capitulate again and again and it would be easier for the griks to force us to change our identity and language’s name.

And finally, I asked you to name a few “compromises” the griks have made, and you have ignored me and continued to talk up how grease has been fair and made many “compromises”. Just as I thought, you cant even name one REAL compromise that grease has given up

[osiris]

and i thought homer simpson was funny

we have wasted 8 pages on a non entity who has obviously had to much retsina to think clearly.

is it really ivo or grchko pivo that he represents

[Bratot]

I decided to making easier for Ivo to give concrete answers without distortioning the subject in this argument.

Here are the questions and posts he owe us answers:

Ivo,


Another mindboggling assumption is that Greece has some how made a "concession". How can someone make a "concession" when they have no ownership of, or right to, the very "concession" they are supposedly making?

Finally, explain how the name "Republic of Northern Macedonia" is not renaming our state. Explain how this is not an attack on our identity or how it will prevent the defacto renaming of our people into "Northern Macedonians". Explain how this is not an abolition of our national sovereingty.

Hello Ivo, thanks for coming over. Could you please expand on this point. What concessions has Greece made regarding the name Macedonia?
And what other concessions have they made?
How would you verbalise the expected concessions that RoM is supposed to make?
And in your mind, how do these concessions relate to the Greek ones, in terms of gravitas and consequences?

You say the Ohrid agreement and the constitutional amendments are excellent steps for the Macedonian government. Do you actually know the content and nature of these changes? I will assume you do. Given your affirmation of the Ohrid agreement and the constitutional amendments, it means you embrace the notion that the will of the Macedonian people (in both an ethnic and national sense) is now strangled by the ethnic Albanian minority. You do understand how their vote means more than the Macedonian vote don't you?


I note you chose not to comment on the following issues I raised in an earlier post:
- Accession to the EU being absolutely measurable.
- What is the maddening uncertainty over Macedonia's official legitimacy as a state?
- Define the ultra-nationalistic sentiment.

Could you be kind enough to remind us what sort of comrpomises undertook Greece?

Why is Greece insisting so hard on exclusivity over the name 'Macedonia'?

The concession Greece did from her position on the usage of the name 'Macedonia' by us was pure denial of Macedonian ethnicity since the meaning of that word has been made conditional to NOT symbolize the Macedonian ethnic identity.

That's why we were forced to change our ethnic symbols.

So the Greek aim to destroy the Macedonian ethnic identity remained, as a condition.

Ivo, what kind of compromise you are trying to imply having from Greek side?

I’m definitely no Greek advocate - I think the problem mostly emanates from Greek insecurity, but if we’re honest, the Macedonians aggravate the issue with our own consid erable insecurities. I don’t think we need to be - we are now Macedonians, and the smallest compromise at the end of the process (i.e. Northern Macedonia) not only sends a message that the Macedonians know that nationalist chest-thumping isn’t what a modern European state does, but it also puts a (relatively) amicable end to this ridiculous dispute.

So far you are not convincing about the advocate you tend to be.

Insecurity doesn't have anything to do with the right to stand on your rightful position and defend yourself.

1. Even though the UN in 1948 adopted a resolution which strictly prohibited the introduction of new conditions for entry in this world organization we were still prohibited from entering the UN by our chosen name 'Macedonia'.

2. Greece enforced economic blockade on us 'embargo' in violation of article 5 of the GATT agreement which guarantees uninterrupted and obstacle free transit of all goods.
Than after the Interim Accord in 1995 was signed the European court dismissed the case in Strasburg against this Greek illegal blockade pretending that the blockade never happened at all.

3. Greece is obliged not to prevent the Republic of Macedonia from joining international organizations and associations in which Greece is a member according the article 11 from the Interim Accord.
Greece did not respected that right and its own international obligation when, undertook measures to block Macedonia’s entry into NATO at the Bucharest Summit.

Another classic example where politics dominated over fairness and justice.

4. Greece continuously uses the slogan “Macedonia is Greece” which implies territorial claims toward our tiny Republic.


And now you are trying to fool the readers of Guardian how it's time Macedonia finally accept ANOTHER 'compromise'?

A need to vetoing us?

If you look behind Greek politics with the name it's pretty clear that the problem they have is the name which defines the Macedonian peoples’ ethnic identity.
It's about the existence of a separate Macedonian ethnic identity which is hidden in the name of the country.


And if you look in advocating the discrimination against Roma population start with the existing EU members or maybe take a visit to Roma places such as Kosice in Slovakia. Before criticizing us on this issue make sure the EU has implemented their rights.

Here is an enlightening interview with Stavros Ligeros to point out to you and all other dellusioned Macedonians what are the Greek aims:

http://www.forum.com.mk/mobile/article/3957

A short compilation of his words:

Не е прашање само името, туку и идентитетот.

Ниту на ниво на име на државата не може да се нарекувате Република Македонија, ниту на ниво на идентитет.

Како што на Кипар постојат Грци-Кипрани и Турци-Кипрани и велиме Гркокипрани и Туркокипрани, така и во Македонија има Грци кои се Гркомакедонци, Бугари кои се Бугаромакедонци, Албанци кои се Албаномакедонци и вие. Ве нарекуваме славомакедонци, но Грција нема никаква причина да ве крстува. Ако сакате вашата националност да ја определите со друга одредница - можете, но не можете вие да бидете Македонците

Да расчистиме. Ова што го велите е ваш личен став?
Веќе не. Тогаш, пред 17 години, беше мој личен став, но сега веќе е официјална политика. Ова што ви го велам е она што го кажа господин Караманлис на самитот на НАТО во Букурешт.

Не се согласувам дека треба да биде идентитетот македонски.
Мислам дека идентитетот треба да биде славомакедонски, или што друго одберете како одредница.

Нашиот проблем е дека не може да ги употребувате терминот македонски јазик и македонска нација затоа што на тој начин еден дел, едно парче, се претставува како целината Македонија.

А тоа е дека Македонија како географски поим не е татковина на само една нација. Таа е татковина на повеќе нации.

That's more less all about their intentions, trying to present the secondary identity of the population as primary while we Macedonians will lose our national identity for good.

Because for a local Greek living in Macedonia, being a Macedonian is his secondary local identity, but being a Macedonian for us in the RoM or anywhere else is PRIMARY identity as we do not have other identity to use contrary to the Greek where secondary he is 'Macedonian' and primary a Greek national.

And I will end these citations with his vision of a modern state vs your vision Ivo:

Точно е дека на оние што не се изјаснуваа како Грци им беше ускратено нивното право. Тоа е вистина.
Но, знаете, државите си ги бранат сопствените интереси, тие не се хуманитарни организации.

Exactly. That's the reality and not some demagogy of yours.

As long as there is no ethnic source for the Macedonian identity, there can be no Macedonian ethnic identity and also no Macedonian minority in Greece!



What you are offering to us Ivo is the most humiliating retreat.

And why is that when before Yugoslavia’s breakup Greece officially used Macedonia’s historical and constitutional name then part of the Yugoslav Federation – (Socialist) Republic of Macedonia?

1. Never in its own history has Greece used the name “Macedonia” prior to August 1988.

2. In 1988 with a decree Greece renamed the "Northern province" to "Macedonian and Thrace region" by creating districts as named “Western Macedonia”, Central Macedonia” and “Eastern Macedonia and Thrace”.

The nude fact is - There never was nor is a Greek province called "Macedonia".

3. The Republic of Macedonia was the FIRST STATE to make use of the name MACEDONIA when proclaiming it's independent republic in 1944 and with international rights, rightly defined by “Qui prior est tempore, potior est jure”, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DISPUTE THAT NAME.

Even if Europe has given up on us we are going to fight for the European values by not allowing self serving politics to triumph over the justice.

You speak of "numerous concessions", what other "concessions" has Greece made?

[Volk]

anyone fantasizing that the 'name issue' is solely about the name has either no grasp of reality or is a paid agent to the ones who wish to further destroy and take what is ours

[Boge]

Boge, do you also share the opinion of the individual you've jumped in to defend?

Solder of Macedon I have not jumped to Ivitsa’s defence, I merely asked for restraint in comments prior to Ivo’s presence on this forum. You know, ask questions then shoot.

Never the less Ivitsa has proven to be a Yugo nostalgic with a total disdain for the Diaspora Macedonians and Macedonia’s history. The man seems to have begged the papers to publish his article.

[Risto the Great]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/15/madedonia-being-macedonian

As one of the 9,000 or so Macedonians living in England, I have long been aware of the contrast between the unselfconscious patriotism that is the norm in Macedonia, and the awkward evasion that accompanies the national identity question in England.

Having been in England since the age of 11, I have a foot in both camps – or, more accurately, find myself foreign in both places. I used to speak no English, then accented English, then accented Macedonian, and now I struggle to remember Macedonian words. This duality is no hardship to me – I'm equally happy to apologise when someone steps on my foot as I am to go around the house closing windows to avoid promaja.

One of the most instantly recognisable Macedonian traits across class boundaries is a fierce devotion to the idea of being "Macedonian". You will not find many in the Macedonian mainstream asking what nationality means because enough questions surround the Macedonian nationality already – and they all come from neighbouring countries. The most persistent of these is a typically Balkan diplomatic deadlock – the 19-year-old name dispute with Greece.

Accession to the EU is among the Macedonian government's top priorities, a process hindered by the veto Greece has on any accessions. Greek objections also mean that Macedonia is referred to in official UN or Nato documents as FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), to much consternation in Skopje. Athens disputes Macedonia's constitutional name (Republic of Macedonia) because they see the term "Macedonia" and the identity it designates as part of their ancient cultural heritage. Some on the Macedonian side argue that, on the contrary, it is the Macedonian people who can claim cultural and ethnic continuity with the ancient kingdom of Alexander the Great, on the basis that those people never went away from the region.

Both Greek and Macedonian claims to continuity with the ancient kingdom are tenuous at best. Though a Hellenic culture, the ancient Macedonians were not "Greek" in any sense we would understand today, and they certainly weren't Slavic.

Macedonia's Eastern neighbour Bulgaria was among the first countries to officially recognise the Macedonian state. However, they still refuse to recognise it as a nation, seeing the country and its people as prodigal Bulgarians. Many in Bulgaria consider the Macedonian language to be a regional Bulgarian dialect. As with Greece, the Bulgarian ambivalence is rooted in the region's convoluted history – in this case a more recent episode.

In the 19th century, regional revolutionaries such as Goce Delčev and Jane Sandanski fought the Ottomans, making little headway politically, but attaining near-mythical status among the locals. Both Macedonia and Bulgaria are fiercely possessive of these figures, but cannot agree about their nationality. Both states have towns named after Delčev, and statues of him watch over Macedonian and Bulgarian town squares. A portrait of Delčev hung in my primary school classroom, and both he and Sandanski are name-checked in the Macedonian national anthem.

The Bulgarians, like Greece, feel that they would lose a cherished part of their historical narrative if they ceded a separate Macedonian identity. The confusion is not helped by the fact that the Ottoman bureaucrats who carried out every census in the region before the 20th century did not see the need to differentiate between regional identities – "Christian Slavs" generally sufficed. Later studies are not much more helpful – the anthropologist Robert Newman, travelling through the Macedonian part of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1935, found that many locals were happy to be known as Bulgarians, Serbs, Macedonians or Turks – whichever identity seemed appropriate for whatever situation they found themselves in.

In Macedonia today, conversations about politics are ubiquitous and heated – the frustration with the diplomatic disputes is palpable, because everyone knows what and who they are and are impatient for everyone else to acknowledge what already exists.

Macedonians drink Turkish coffee, a tar-like espresso; the elderly watch subtitled Argentinian soap operas, while teenagers listen to American pop, and everyone takes Eurovision seriously. Byzantine ruins, Ottoman souks, medieval Orthodox churches and Yugoslav-era concrete sprawls are scattered across the country. As with any nation, the essence is impossible to convey but easy to understand when you're part of it; it is an aggregate of many different things, some good and some bad (as the Roma minority will attest), but all of them inherently Macedonian.

I have had conversations with Greek and Bulgarian people along the lines of "why do you deny you're Greek/Bulgarian?" I can't remember what my reply was, probably something uninspiring like "erm … not sure?"

What I wish I had said to them is this: it makes no difference if Goce Delčev was Bulgarian or if Alexander was Greek and my 19th century ancestors considered themselves Serbs or Turks – I'm not any of those things. To be FYROM-ian is meaningless, and to be Bulgarian is out of the question. Perhaps it is the case that we have taken Greek terms and symbols, added a variant of the Bulgarian language, and fused them to create a nation and people that reflect the region's mixed heritage. None of that alters the fact that the Macedonians living today have never been anything other than Macedonians, and should have the right to be known as such.

Irrespective of some of your unfortunate interpretations, I have highlighted your final sentence. What has changed since you have written this? What will your (very public) opinion change to next time?

[IvoPetkovski]

What has changed since you have written this?

Nothing at all - that remains my position.

[Phoenix]

Nothing at all - that remains my position.

Ivo, please tell me what drives an individual to sell out his nationality, to trivialize his history and culture and to pretend its ok to do so...?

[Bratot]

Phoenix pal, let's hear the answers Ivo has on the posts I selected upper and than he is "yours"

Ivo,

how long it will take you to provide those answers and is there anything you disagree with in my post?

[Prolet]

Phoenix pal, let's hear the answers Ivo has on the posts I selected upper and than he is "yours"

Ivo,

how long it will take you to provide those answers and is there anything you disagree with in my post?

Bratot, Maybe if you slipped in $50 for each question he might respond sooner?

[Bratot]

Prolet,

that's actually a question of yours.

You owe me a 50$ already.

[thessalo-niki]

Hello, some remarks from Greece, too. (You'll get used to verbal lynching).
Things will not be easy in Greece, either. It's true, that they're preparing people for the final compromise and names like Northern Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, Macedonia-Skopje, Macedonia (Skopje), Macedonia of Skopje etc, are presented here as acceptable. Yet, it’s not so simple and there are many negative developments.
(a) Greece is probably collapsing, economically, socially, politically. The whole political leadership, or half of it, will disappear within the next four years (and this is the optimistic scenario). Nobody knows, what's coming next, but it won't be good for the negotiations.
(b) The reappearance of Antonis Samaras (an idealist and grandson of Penelope Delta) as a leader of opposition. Pragmatist Dora Bakogianni was already (and quickly) ousted and New Democracy (centre-right political party) will move slightly to the right, where the upcoming Karatzaferis (Orthodox Rally) is already expanding.
No one will dare to bring a compromising proposal to Parliament and people here would not vote favourably, e.g. in a referendum. When the issue comes forth, populists will certainly utilise it, beyond comprehension. My personal forecast is that we will have a frozen conflict.
___________________________________
Odysseas Elytis – Our name is our soul

[Vangelovski]

Hello, some remarks from Greece, too. (You'll get used to verbal lynching).
Things will not be easy in Greece, either. It's true, that they're preparing people for the final compromise and names like Northern Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, Macedonia-Skopje, Macedonia (Skopje), Macedonia of Skopje etc, are presented here as acceptable. Yet, it’s not so simple and there are many negative developments.
(a) Greece is probably collapsing, economically, socially, politically. The whole political leadership, or half of it, will disappear within the next four years (and this is the optimistic scenario). Nobody knows, what's coming next, but it won't be good for the negotiations.
(b) The reappearance of Antonis Samaras (an idealist and grandson of Penelope Delta) as a leader of opposition. Dora Bakogianni was already (and quickly) ousted and New Democracy (centre-right political party) will move slightly to the right, where the upcoming Karatzaferis (Orthodox Rally) is already expanding.
No one will dare to bring a compromising proposal to Parliament and people here would not vote favourably, e.g. in a referendum. When the issue comes forth, populists will certainly utilise it, beyond comprehension. My personal forecast is that we will have a frozen conflict.
___________________________________
Odysseas Elytis – Our name is our soul

I'm not interested in compromising on something that is mine - how about we compromise on something that is yours...say renaming your country into the "Turkish Republic of Athens"? Or maybe "Western Turkey"? Or the "Southern Balkan Republic"?

[thessalo-niki]

I'm not interested in compromising on something that is mine - how about we compromise on something that is yours...say renaming your country into the "Turkish Republic of Athens"? Or maybe "Western Turkey"? Or the "Southern Balkan Republic"?

Legally speaking, the name Greece is ours, but the name Macedonia is not yours yet.
_________________________________
Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[iskra]

I like this idea of others having to compromise for a change. The proper name of what today is called "Greece" in Ottoman times was Morea (for Greeks who have forgotten what that means, "mo-re" refers to the sea); so I like Former Ottoman Province of Morea: FOPOM inhabited by FOPOMIANS.