United Macedonia Diaspora

[Buktop]

Buktop, your avatar at Maknews is of Russia's president, is it not? Is it Russia or the individual himself that you have an actual affinity for?

Are you aware of what America has done to Macedonia in the last century? I think you are, because it has been cited recently. None of these 'friends' are good, it is just a matter of determining who is the lesser evil, let's compare the 2 big fish, the country that gives us false promises and never delivers (Russia) or the country that provides active support to our enemies (America) during the Greek civil war of 1946-49 and the Macedonian conflict of 2001? None of these groups have helped Macedonia, for Macedonia - Everything the American's have done has been as a result of their own strategy.

Yes my avatar was of Putin the ex-KGB, Judo master and macho manly man that saved a camera crew from a tiger, lol I chose that avatar because Putin was winking, I think he is a funny guy, and it is also funny how much Americans are afraid of him.

I am aware of what America has done, I am aware of what Australia has done, I am aware of what Europe has done and I am aware of what Russia has done. You are right in the sense that it is a comparison of the lesser of the evils.

Every country that helps any other country does it as a result of their own strategy for personal gain. The question you need to ask yourself is which of the evils benefits Macedonia the most (politically/economically) while harming it the least. As of right now, I am of the impression that we are percieved as a valuable asset to USA and hence the closer cooperation between the two governments as well as economic ties. I don't think the USA would build it's biggest embassy in Macedonia simply to see Macedonia disintigrate.

It is all a matter of perceived benefit, which really, depends on what you are looking at.

It would be nice to play both sides against the other but the Macedonian politicians are incapable of doing this.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Objective opinion? Please.

We all know his (and your) history with Pelister, Vangelovski and co. Don't try and paint a bad image of this forum because the administrators allow both sides to be heard. Threads like this 'turn to shit' because people who are clearly subjective are claiming to make statements in the name of 'objectivity'.

I am starting to understand why this whole issue 'turned to shit', Pelister is no angel, but your defence of Meto's pathetic statements and the way you have danced around them are a reason for topics as such 'turning to shit'. This is why the real matter at hand is buried under the eventual "he said, she said" garbage. You guys are now so caught up in 'support-mode' for the UMD that anything written about them is viewed as an attack, which is a tragedy, as Macedonians are now made to feel bad because they dared to criticise an organisation that claims to represent them. The cherry of the cake is the fact that the UMD require people like yourself, Dzog and co. to go from forum to forum to 'defend' their interests, rather than the UMD addressing these matters themselves, appropriately. Oh wait a sec, it was you that said that I am "not fucking entitled to a response", wasn't it?

You won't get a more objective Macedonian forum than ours, if you want the Maknews type of 'objectivity', you know where to go.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You have Putin as an avatar for the comedic element? How interesting, I thought it had something to do with your yugo-commie (no pun intended, it is what it is) signature over there.

With regard to Australia and even Russia, it is more a case of what they haven't done (yet). As far as I am aware, no Aussie or Russian flew over Lerinsko in 1949 to spray it with napalm oil on behalf of the Greeks, nor were they there giving a free passage of exit for the ethnic Albanian terrorists that destabilised Macedonia in 2001. All of that good stuff was courtesy of the USA.

The current relationship between Macedonia and America comes from their support against our enemies. Do you think the USA are building their great embassy in Macedonia to assist in preserving the Macedonian people? The USA is interested in maintaining a vassal state in the Balkans, regardless of what their name is. We are one of the weakest groups in the Balkans at the moment because of divisive traitors, what better candidate is there for the USA to 'control'?

How have/will their activities in Macedonia, benefit(ed) the Macedonian people?

[Buktop]

Objective opinion? Please.

We all know his (and your) history with Pelister, Vangelovski and co. Don't try and paint a bad image of this forum because the administrators allow both sides to be heard. Threads like this 'turn to shit' because people who are clearly subjective are claiming to make statements in the name of 'objectivity'.

I am starting to understand why this whole issue 'turned to shit', Pelister is no angel, but your defence of Meto's pathetic statements and the way you have danced around them are a reason for topics as such 'turning to shit'. This is why the real matter at hand is buried under the eventual "he said, she said" garbage. You guys are now so caught up in 'support-mode' for the UMD that anything written about them is viewed as an attack, which is a tragedy, as Macedonians are now made to feel bad because they dared to criticise an organisation that claims to represent them. The cherry of the cake is the fact that the UMD require people like yourself, Dzog and co. to go from forum to forum to 'defend' their interests, rather than the UMD addressing these matters themselves, appropriately. Oh wait a sec, it was you that said that I am "not fucking entitled to a response", wasn't it?

You won't get a more objective Macedonian forum than ours, if you want the Maknews type of 'objectivity', you know where to go.

Wow SoM. So it is all my fault for offering a differing opinion and interpretation of statements than yours?

First of all, I didn't involve UMD in this thread at all, and if you look at my first post in this thread you will understand my reason for commenting. Secondly you know what I said regarding Meto's comments and I don't appreciate you misrepresenting my statements. Thirdly, I am not even a fucking member of UMD. I have nothing personally invested in this witch hunt. I only addressed statements that were clearly unsubstantiated (as you yourself called Pelister to substantiate his ridiculous claims, not to mention the countless times that Rogi, TM, and UMDiaspora.org have addressed them), and I then was drawn further and further into the shit-hole as I was attacked and accused relentlessly because I support the charity work that UMD has done for Macedonians.

My involvement in the UMD threads would have ended had it not been for Vangelovski and Phoenix constantly accusing me of foul play and communist style stifling of opposition.

I'll admit, I do not care for Vangelovski, and I will admit that our arguments have drawn away from thread focus, but in all of our arguments significant issues have been discussed and two sides have been told.

UMD does not "require" people like Dzog or myself to defend them (Dzog hasn't said a word in any UMD thread, and in fact he agrees with you that Pelister needs to substantiate his claims rather than pull them out of thin air) I don't see the connection you draw between him and UMD.

SoM, you have proven to be one of the most reasonable people to hold a conversation with on this forum, our past history and differences aside, I respect that. I am not a UMD messenger boy, and any and all arguments I have made concerning UMD are in an attempt to offer a different perspective and interpretation of the disputed statements. I will not force you to believe my interpretations but I believe they not only balance the debate, but provide an opportunity to weed out the week and irrelevant arguments that cannot be substantiated or proved.

[Buktop]

You have Putin as an avatar for the comedic element? How interesting, I thought it had something to do with your yugo-commie (no pun intended, it is what it is) signature over there.

Yes my signature is a quote from Tito, nevertheless it holds significant relevance concerning the current Macedonian predicament specifically, as you have noted, a traitorous element. Read it again if you must

We have spilled an ocean of blood for brotherhood and unity of our peoples, and we shall not allow anyone to touch or destroy it from within.

With regard to Australia and even Russia, it is more a case of what they haven't done (yet). As far as I am aware, no Aussie or Russian flew over Lerinsko in 1949 to spray it with napalm oil on behalf of the Greeks, nor were they there giving a free passage of exit for the ethnic Albanian terrorists that destabilised Macedonia in 2001. All of that good stuff was courtesy of the USA.

Do you know what the Tito-Stalin split was? If you do, then you will realize that this is one of the main factors for the events unfolding the way they did during the Greek civil war.

And yes, the actions of the US during the 2001 conflict were atrocious, but this can only be blamed on the preceding policy pursued by Bill Clinton. It was strictly a remnant of his foreign policy concerning Serbia that spilled over into Macedonia. I personally despise Bill Clinton, but you cannot blame an entire country for one President and his complete and utter failure at foreign policy.

The current relationship between Macedonia and America comes from their support against our enemies. Do you think the USA are building their great embassy in Macedonia to assist in preserving the Macedonian people? The USA is interested in maintaining a vassal state in the Balkans, regardless of what their name is. We are one of the weakest groups in the Balkans at the moment because of divisive traitors, what better candidate is there for the USA to 'control'?

How have/will their activities in Macedonia, benefit(ed) the Macedonian people?

Whether or not we let them control Macedonia is up to us, the point is the perceived appearance of importance. And this closeness may or may not be an attempt at a "vassal" state, there is no proof to confirm or deny this. The point being an increased interest by the US reduces certain external and internal risks that would otherwise be quite serious at this particular point in time.

I will not answer the second part as I am sure personal opinion plays a bigger roll than facts in this aspect.

[Risto the Great]

I don't think the USA would build it's biggest embassy in Macedonia simply to see Macedonia disintigrate.

I will pretend I am talking to a little child for the benefit of our readers that struggle with complex realities (typically Americans). If Macedonia were to disintegrate, the Americans have already befriended the ethnic Albanians so much that they have already made statues of a former USA president. They have favoured ethnic Albanians over Macedonians every time.

Why would anyone think the Americans could care less about WHO they are dictating to? As long as they have complete capitulation from the victim nation, the Americans will be happy.

[Bill77]

Buktop, i am starting to wander where your Patriotism leans towards more. You seem to get ofended everytime the US is criticised. There are many on this thread from Australia for an example, where they have openly Trashed there own government. The truth is the truth, has nothing to do with The US v AUS or Canada v US. Its all to do with Macedonia and the Macedonians.

[Buktop]

I will pretend I am talking to a little child for the benefit of our readers that struggle with complex realities (typically Americans).

Risto, I am offended by this statement, what are you trying to say? All Americans are stupid? Didn't all you Aussies have your panties in a twist when Maknews made the same comments? Hypocrisy at its best...

If Macedonia were to disintegrate, the Americans have already befriended the ethnic Albanians so much that they have already made statues of a former USA president. They have favoured ethnic Albanians over Macedonians every time.

Again, you didn't even bother to read anything that I wrote.

Why would anyone think the Americans could care less about WHO they are dictating to? As long as they have complete capitulation from the victim nation, the Americans will be happy.

Risto, please tell me you know something about the foreign policy of nations... You think Australia gets itself involved in other nations business for the sake of the poor and innocent? PLEASE read what I write before making statements like these, it might give people the impression that you are pursuing an agenda...

Risto, I am very disappointed with this post, maybe I should go rally up all the Americans on the forums and start threads saying that Risto is trying to create divisions in the diaspora?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do you know what the Tito-Stalin split was? If you do, then you will realize that this is one of the main factors for the events unfolding the way they did during the Greek civil war.

Of course I know about the Tito-Stalin split, as I am sure you would know that neither Tito, Stalin or their armies bombed Macedonian villages with Napalm oil after WWII, in support of the Greeks. By the way, Bill Clinton was not alive during this time.

I will not answer the second part as I am sure personal opinion plays a bigger roll than facts in this aspect.

Quite the contrary, I am not asking you to tell me your opinion, just the facts. What have the USA done in Macedonia, that has benefited Macedonia?

I will give you an example, then you can give me a parallel.

During 2001 the Americans entered Macedonia to save ethnic Albanian terrorists from the Macedonian forces. That was an act in Macedonia, to the benefit of the ethnic Albanians.

[Buktop]

Buktop, i am starting to wander where your Patriotism leans towards more. You seem to get ofended everytime the US is criticised. There are many on this thread from Australia for an example, where they have openly Trashed there own government. The truth is the truth, has nothing to do with The US v AUS or Canada v US. Its all to do with Macedonia and the Macedonians.

I have openly trashed the US hundreds of times, I have done it in the post right above in response to SoM, I encourage you to read my entire post, not just parts of it.

[Jankovska]

You're dead right about that, Gjorgje Ivanov thinks the same way.

Иванов: За идентитетот нема место за преговори
Горазд Чомовски



Македoнија е најмногу заинтересирана да се премости спорот со името во што е можно најскоро време но никако нема да дозволи во нејзино име друг да решава и притоа да го оспорува правото на самоопределување и самоидентификација.

Претседателот Иванов со сугестија до Грција што поскоро сфатите дека за идентитетските прашања нема место за преговарање толку побрзо ќе може да постигнеме компромис во спорот.

„Идентитетските одредници се прашања за кои едноставно не сакаме или уште попрецизно, немаме право да разговараме. Се надевам дека и нашиот сосед е свесен дека за идентитетските прашања никој на овој свет не разговара. Идентитетот е чувство со кое се раѓа човекот и таквото индивидуално чувство на граѓаните едноставно е невозможно да се одземе на маса со акт, со парче хартија. Доколку нашиот сосед реално, не декларативно, покаже подготвеност за решение, до компромис може да се дојде. Ние сме подготвени“, рече Ѓорѓе Иванов, претседател на Република Македонија.

Резимирајќи ја изминатата година доајенот на дипломатскиот кор, хрватскиот амбасадор ги поздрави успеси што Македонија ги направила во 2009 година, особено добро спроведените претседателски и локалните избори а честиташе и за добиената визна либерализација и препораката за почеток на преговори.

„Се надеваме дека вашата земја ќе продолжи решително со своите реформски напори и дека успешно ќе ги реши сите отворени прашања кои создаваат потешкотии на тој пат. Вашето општество треба и понатаму да го поддржува европскиот пат, со широк консензус и со поддршка на сите политички сили“, вели Иван Кујунџиќ, амбасадор на Хрватска во Македонија.

Она што можеше да му се прочита меѓу редови во обраќањето на Иванов е дека претседателот не е најсреќен од позицијата во која сега е Македонија.

http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=118797

I hope I am not the only one reading this correctly but the guy is talking about our identity and he is not going to negotiate which i thought is obvious that we were not going to anyway. He is still willing to look for a solution on the name.

[Risto the Great]

Risto, I am offended by this statement, what are you trying to say? All Americans are stupid? Didn't all you Aussies have your panties in a twist when Maknews made the same comments? Hypocrisy at its best...

Again, you didn't even bother to read anything that I wrote.

Risto, please tell me you know something about the foreign policy of nations... You think Australia gets itself involved in other nations business for the sake of the poor and innocent? PLEASE read what I write before making statements like these, it might give people the impression that you are pursuing an agenda...

Risto, I am very disappointed with this post, maybe I should go rally up all the Americans on the forums and start threads saying that Risto is trying to create divisions in the diaspora?

I resent the USA for restricting Macedonia in its defense of sovereignty. Before you rally up the Americans you need to prove your point, ask them if America does what it does with USA's interests placed first and foremost. If they cannot accept this, then don't bring them here. I did say "typically Americans", it would exclude people like True Macedonian. How many Americans have passports, I am sure 5% was the statistic. The world revolves around the USA for most Americans and they have the least interest in world affairs of almost all people. As a general rule, give me Europeans for conversation any time.

Australia acts in its own interests in East Timor and other places where it can exert influence. It is a disgusting reality. It does not mean Macedonians should be proud of it. To be honest, if I was to consider being a prostitute, I would like a little more money for the degradation.

[Jankovska]

america is not and has never been Macedonia's friend. The EU is not and has never been Macedonia's friend. The sooner our gov, Macedonian Diaspora org and the Macedonians themselves understand this the sooner we will be looking to the future and NOT hoping that someone will save us. Everyone who think America or the EU are our friends and give a fuck about should really open their eyes, wake up and smell the coffee

[Buktop]

Of course I know about the Tito-Stalin split, as I am sure you would know that neither Tito, Stalin or their armies bombed Macedonian villages with Napalm oil after WWII, in support of the Greeks. By the way, Bill Clinton was not alive during this time.

If you know about the Tito-Stalin split, then you know that the American and British pilots would not have ever been ordered to fly over Greek territory had Stalin not withdrawn support for the partizans in Greece. By the way, primary bombing coordination over Greece was conducted by Britain, considering they had the most to gain or lose pending the outcome of the war. Between 1943-45 Britain had invested well over a billion pounds in Greece.

Re-read my post concerning Bill Clinton, this was in response to your comments on 2001.

Quite the contrary, I am not asking you to tell me your opinion, just the facts. What have the USA done in Macedonia, that has benefited Macedonia?

I will give you an example, then you can give me a parallel.

During 2001 the Americans entered Macedonia to save ethnic Albanian terrorists from the Macedonian forces. That was an act in Macedonia, to the benefit of the ethnic Albanians.

I was not offering an opinion, I stated that whether it be my opinion or yours facts wont matter (as we will see with responding posts). How about the amount of FDI from the US. How about the new US-Macedonian military contracts.

I want to ask you something now. What has Russia done in Macedonia to benefit Macedonians, What has Australia done in Macedonia to benefit Macedonians?

[Buktop]

I resent the USA for restricting Macedonia in its defense of sovereignty. Before you rally up the Americans you need to prove your point, ask them if America does what it does with USA's interests placed first and foremost. If they cannot accept this, then don't bring them here. I did say "typically Americans", it would exclude people like True Macedonian. How many Americans have passports, I am sure 5% was the statistic. The world revolves around the USA for most Americans and they have the least interest in world affairs of almost all people. As a general rule, give me Europeans for conversation any time.

Australia acts in its own interests in East Timor and other places where it can exert influence. It is a disgusting reality. It does not mean Macedonians should be proud of it. To be honest, if I was to consider being a prostitute, I would like a little more money for the degradation.

I resent Australia for not recognizing Macedonia's constitutional name... and therefor restricting its sovereignty.
No one has ever denied that USA acts on behalf of its own interests, I don't know what you are arguing about? No one ever said they were proud of America acting on their own interests, I said that Macedonia could use that to its benefit... And excuse me, but are you talking of general Americans, or the American Macedonians? I would advise you be careful how you phrase these statements.


You keep alluding to the comparison of being a prostitute, did you ever wonder why women became prostitutes? I assure you it was not by choice, and it was not because they were well off, and were able to support themselves.