United Macedonia Diaspora

[Buktop]

Indeed. I think we are also doing a service to Macedonia and the Macedonian people by clarifying the true intent of any organisation that claims to represent the Macedonian Diaspora. Yet here we are, being attacked for trying to make people accountable for their own words, god forbid.

SoM, I truly understand where your criticism's come from, and I agree with almost all of your suggestions in regards to the UMD dispute, but just read some of the posts made by Pelister, Vangelovski and Phoenix. They are outright assault's with no intention of being constructive. You yourself have called on Pelister several times to provide proof of his allegations and yet he has not, Rogi has addressed Pelisters accusations ad-nauseum.

Simply because I support the actions UMD have taken to help Macedonians and Macedonia I have earned the disrespect of the entire forum. I am not here to attack, but to try and draw attention to the huge misconceptions that seem to be flying around, and I am here to offer a different opinion when concerning UMD.

[Buktop]

Buktop, do you think the presidency of the UMD should be subject to vote or not?

Yes

and as stated recently by UMD

Prior to 2008, UMD had a committee of founders and volunteers/activists. UMD's Bylaws were approved on February 16, 2008 with your consent. UMD's bylaws, which came into effect on February 16, 2008, states that members of the Board are to be elected to serve a period of three years. Members of the Board shall be elected by voting members of the organization. Executive Officers are elected by the Board. UMD will hold its first elections for Board of Directors in 2011. Only members of UMD in good standing will be considered voting members and thus will be able to vote in 2011.

Just goes to show you the many misconceptions that exist on the forum.

Oh and I wonder why Vangelovski neglected to mention any of this?

[Buktop]

Oh boy I mean I like reading conspiracy theories and about secret societies like Skull and Bones and the Bilderberg Group but this attack is just getting out of hand. Pelister with all this energy on attacking UMD you could have used it to attack our real enemies South of Macedonia. And the ghost of x-mas past Vangelovski pops in to add his 2 pence and now UMD are tools of Western powers? What a waste of a topic and I feel sorry for those of you who are sucked in on this sham.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[TajnataKniga]

stamp

Oh boy I mean I like reading conspiracy theories and about secret societies like Skull and Bones and the Bilderberg Group but this attack is just getting out of hand. Pelister with all this energy on attacking UMD you could have used it to attack our real enemies South of Macedonia. And the ghost of x-mas past Vangelovski pops in to add his 2 pence and now UMD are tools of Western powers? What a waste of a topic and I feel sorry for those of you who are sucked in on this sham.

adding my stamp of approval too.

[Risto the Great]

AMHRC and MHRMI wrote to professor miller and referring to the interim accord, they are legitimising it and de factor support it

here http://macedonianhr.org.au/reslib/do...1622656750.pdf - page 24

omg now this is blasphemy, this is outrageous!!!! the worst one yet, actually this one is no where near what UMD, MHRMI, or AMHRC state...

I actually read page 24, it said the following:

The fact of the matter which Professor Miller wilfully ignores is that under the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995 signed by the foreign ministers of Greece and Macedonia, both sides confirmed their existing frontiers as an enduring and inviolable international border. They also agreed that they would not support the action of a third party directed against the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of the other party. They agreed to refrain from the threat or use of force, including the threat or use of force designed to violate their existing frontiers, and they agreed that neither party would assert or support claims to any part of the territory of the other, or claims for a change of their existing frontier.

This does not actually suggest the AMHRC support the Accord. It does point out something both Governments had (apparently) signed up to.

TK, you are working very hard here to point fingers. From another thread you say you are happy with prefixes (or was it suffixes). You, my dear Macedonian, are in the minority. Whilst I still regard you as a Macedonian, you are as useful to Macedonians as a Greek, Bulgar or Serbian typically is.

[Buktop]

This does not actually suggest the AMHRC support the Accord. It does point out something both Governments had (apparently) signed up to.

Well then for AMHRC they are simply mentioning that it was signed, but with UMD it means that they support it? Double standards if ever I saw them.

[slovenec zrinski]

You don´t need the greeks,bulgarians,serbians or albanians to destroy you. You are doing a great job of that yourselfs.
Sad to see. Both here and on Maknews.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It is sad Zrinski, but I think in many respects it is a necessity, too many times Macedonians have put their blind faith in various groups without questioning the intent of their actions and statements, way too many times. I think it is sad that there is personal animosity between some people, I think it is sad that certain people (not you) wish to involve themselves in these conversations just for the sake of playing 'devils advocate', and I think it is most sad when we have people making errors in judgement and then blatantly denying that these errors ever took place.

[Grotius]

I have been a financial member of the AMHRC for several years.

At the time of the capitulation to the Framework Agreement, the AMHRC wrote directly to every single Macedonian parliamentarian demanding they immediately denounce and withdraw from such an appalling imposition.

As for the so-called Interim Accord, the AMHRC has on numerous occasions made public statements calling for the immediate end to the ‘so-called name talks’. The AMHRC has never to my knowledge supported the so-called Accord. Moreover, unlike others, they have never advocated or even contemplated name changes.

T-K, now that you have brought up the AMHRC’s response to Prof. Miller, I would encourage you (and others) to read it its entirety and in context. I don’t see any other organisation capable of producing such a clinical response to a Greek sycophant like Miller.

[Vangelovski]

You call a rant about constitutional mandate an answer? You haven't even quoted the relevant constitutional articles.

You are a master of evasion, I have to hand it to you. I don't understand Vangelovski, why is it so hard for someone like you to answer 3 simple questions?



In a republican government who votes for Parliamentarians? Why do they vote for Parliamentarians? What is the Parliament for?

Relevant constitutional articles? I think that statement says it all.

Buktop, I'm not going to waste my time on you again - read and understand what I've posted. Until you do that and come up with a sensible response, I've got better things to do. If it helps you, where I have written "government", replace it with "parliament".

P.S. Your an American history "expert" - maybe you should look at what the founding fathers thought about unlimited state power and how that goes with YOUR theory of consent.

[Vangelovski]

Yes

and as stated recently by UMD

Just goes to show you the many misconceptions that exist on the forum.

Oh and I wonder why Vangelovski neglected to mention any of this?

Again, read and understand my posts, I left before UMD bylaws were finalised and adopted. A few days ago you were arguing that UMD had too little members who were far too geographically spread out to hold elections. Now that your master has contradicted you, you've changed your tune.

[Rogi]

TajnataKniga,

I have read the AMHRC response to Prof. Miller quite thoroughly, and many times. What you quoted, and very much out of context, is a statement of fact and does not read as an endorsement.

I have also followed the actions of the AMHRC for a very long time and they have consistently remained the most pro-active organisation against the Interim Accord and in support of the Macedonian cause (on the definition we all agree on), with many actions including the one state above by Grotius.

Now, it must be said, in a similar manner to what TajnataKniga has done above, a great many, albeit not all, of the UMD press releases and statements have also been taken out of context.

That said, there seems to be a growing 'mob' mentality against UMD and so the actual meaning behind some of UMD's statements is ignored, despite some being similar statements of fact.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Buktop, I don't agree with the animosity in some of the posts, from both ends, it is an unfortunate part of this discussion, and I am not denying that there is bad blood between individuals from both sides of the argument.

You have not earned disrespect for simply supporting the UMD, and to say that the entire forum disrespects you is not true. Remember one of your first posts here which was directed at myself was something like "i don't think you're fucking entitled to a response by UMD", or something to that effect. I am an administrator here but I don't fall into the category of people who disrespect you, and this is despite our earlier falling out at Maknews. Your voice on this issue is as welcome as any other member of the MTO, but being involved in this discussion both here and at Maknews for an even longer period, you are well aware of other sentiments that are not alligned with yours.

I said it before and I will repeat, if Meto had just acknowledged his past errors (such as the ZMR interview) and at least provided some sort of reasoning as to what lead him to make such an error (which it clearly was), I, and I am sure many others too, would have taken a different view on this matter.

[Phoenix]

TajnataKniga,

I have read the AMHRC response to Prof. Miller quite thoroughly, and many times. What you quoted, and very much out of context, is a statement of fact and does not read as an endorsement.

I have also followed the actions of the AMHRC for a very long time and they have consistently remained the most pro-active organisation against the Interim Accord and in support of the Macedonian cause (on the definition we all agree on), with many actions including the one state above by Grotius.

Now, it must be said, in a similar manner to what TajnataKniga has done above, a great many, albeit not all, of the UMD press releases and statements have also been taken out of context.

That said, there seems to be a growing 'mob' mentality against UMD and so the actual meaning behind some of UMD's statements is ignored, despite some being similar statements of fact.

Rogi, i think the problem with the UMD and its core group of internet supporters is this perception that there's an 'agenda' against UMD or as you've described... "a growing mob mentality against UMD", unfortunately its a situation that has been building since Maknews attacked the Australian Macedonian diaspora...Now its a case of the Aussie diaspora fighting back...

Maknews was warned and UMD was warned to distance themselves from Lubi's personal issues with Australian Macedonians but neither bothered to listen, sadly perhaps another sign of their joint arrogance and contempt.

The most disappointing thing about this issue is the failure of UMD and some of their most vocal supporters understanding the real issues at play, that perhaps UMD aren't the greatest organization of its type in the World, perhaps UMD can do things a shitload better and perhaps UMD is somewhat out of touch with the true feelings of the diaspora but sadly the worst thing is that UMD don't see any of this, the only thing UMD is seeing are shadowy figures and hearing mysterious voices that they've packaged as an "agenda"...

[Phoenix]

SoM, I truly understand where your criticism's come from, and I agree with almost all of your suggestions in regards to the UMD dispute, but just read some of the posts made by Pelister, Vangelovski and Phoenix. They are outright assault's with no intention of being constructive. You yourself have called on Pelister several times to provide proof of his allegations and yet he has not, Rogi has addressed Pelisters accusations ad-nauseum.

Simply because I support the actions UMD have taken to help Macedonians and Macedonia I have earned the disrespect of the entire forum. I am not here to attack, but to try and draw attention to the huge misconceptions that seem to be flying around, and I am here to offer a different opinion when concerning UMD.

Buktop, you're a little American arse licker, that's why you're not respected...you carried on like a goose in your exchange with Jankovska about the Macedonian troops and I won't even start with your previous tito worship on Maknews...what respect do you "deserve" dosaden eden...

Your UMD support has nothing to do with it...