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Soldier of Macedon 07-23-2020 12:02 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183567]I don't understand anything about the pronunciation symbols either in Metsovo or Kozani.
Kozani is toned in A and Koz- sounds as the English word cause and -ani as Annie.
Metsovo is toned in E, ts sounds like tch in catch.[/QUOTE]
Are you referring to stressed syllables? In Macedonian, the stress is placed on the first syllable of both Kožani and Mečovo. In Greek, stress is placed on the second syllable of Kozani. Are you suggesting that the stress is placed on the first syllable when you pronounce Metsovo?

Carlin15 07-23-2020 01:47 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183566]Here is the relevant text:

Carlin, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that he dismissed a Slavic etymology because the place name in Aromanian/Vlach (Mintšu) means the reconstructed original word for Mečovo must be *M[B]ę[/B]čovo and include a nasal vowel. When he makes a comparison with Serbo-Croatian (mečka, meče) and Bulgarian (mečъk, mečka), there is no nasal vowel, thus he concludes that the root word cannot be from a Slavic language. Let's assume that is the case, I wonder if he went to the extent of including the south-western dialects of the Macedonian language (Kostur and Nestram-Kostenar) in his comparison, given that they are geographically closest to Mečovo. One of the main features that sets the Kostur area apart from other Macedonian dialects is precisely the nasal vowel, which means the standard Macedonian word for tooth (zab) is rendered as zamb, the word for hand (raka) is rendered as ranka, the word for child (čedo) is rendered as čendo, etc.[/QUOTE]

I think it might help if anyone knew German and provide an accurate translation of that entire paragraph. He did reference a nasal vowel, but I'm not an expert in linguistics so the only thing I would say, to quote Noel Malcolm, is that [I]Historical linguistics is a complex science and not, in some of its activities, a very exact one[/I].

Presumably, Metsovo was established long time ago - at a time when nasal vowels were still in use (?). This wikipedia entry states that:

"[B]Nasal vowels were initially retained in most Slavic dialects[/B], but soon underwent further changes. Nasality is preserved in modern Polish, as well as in some peripheral dialects of Slovene (e.g. the Carinthian dialect group) and Bulgarian/Macedonian (e.g. [B]around Thessaloniki and Kastoria[/B])."

Considering that nasal vowels are preserved in the areas of Salonica and Kostur I'd say it wouldn't be out of the question to consider that similar regional dialects were being used in the distant past in nearby areas, that is, in Metsovo/Epirus.

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Slavic_languages#The_nasal_vowels_%C4%99_and_%C7%AB[/url]

I can't say more really other than Metsovo seems to be of Slavonic origin. Although, there might be a possibility that we have here a "non-Slavic prefix" being followed by the -ovo (Slavic) ending.

Carlin15 07-23-2020 02:11 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183547]He lived in the exact opposite (Eastern) side of Macedonia, in Eleutheroupolis/Pravi. What's weird about this guy is that half of his children (including my grandmother) adopted his original surname while the other half adopted the nickname. My own father didn't really know or care much and the story was clarified for me only 3-4 years ago when I met a cousin that bears the Kozanitis name.

It's not uncommon. For instance, the popular author Freddy Germanos has this surname because his grandfather studied in Germany, not because he was German.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, that's interesting.

Would you be able to provide a quick summary as to the ethnic makeup of Eleutheroupolis/Pravi/Pravishta within the last 200 years (or longer)?

Amphipolis 07-23-2020 02:23 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183550]Is this Kostiani in Epirus mentioned in any contemporary record while it existed?

Is the destruction of the village or the migration of the 'trilingual populations' mentioned in any contemporary record around the time it happened?

That contradicts the other sources you've referenced.

Are you suggesting the name changed from Kosdiani to Kozani in 100 years? Were there any Ottoman surveys or census' in the area prior to 1498?[/QUOTE]

This weird local newspaper has an excellent analysis in p.3. ([URL="https://www.tzourlakos.com/files/kastaniani-105.pdf"]https://www.tzourlakos.com/files/kastaniani-105.pdf[/URL]). According to this:

-Lioufis says Kostiani is mentioned in a byzantine lexicon but he is wrong

-Aravantinos (geographer of Epirus in 1800s) mentions a Kostiani (Tepeleni district) and a Kotziani (Premeti district), both having Albanian speakers (so the author believes they're not the ones we're looking for).

-He goes very far mentioning other villages with same or similar names and long stories on how various authors got them wrong.

-By the way this is a newspaper of Kostaniani/Kastaniani near Konitsa, i.e. another village that was created by the same people.

-He also provides an analysis on the surnames of the first Kozani settlers comparing them to the settlers of his village.


==

Carlin15 07-23-2020 02:55 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183538]The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village.

[B]The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and [U]Vlach[/U][/B]. According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.[/QUOTE]

Telltale signs of a multilingual Vlach-speaking population.

Liberator of Makedonija 07-23-2020 09:03 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183566] One of the main features that sets the Kostur area apart from other Macedonian dialects is precisely the nasal vowel, which means the standard Macedonian word for tooth (zab) is rendered as zamb, the word for hand (raka) is rendered as ranka, the word for child (čedo) is rendered as čendo, etc.[/QUOTE]

My family speak Kosturski but say [I]zab[/I]. We do say [I]ranka[/I] instead of [I]raka[/I] however; I do not know about [I]čedo/čendo[/I].

Amphipolis 07-24-2020 12:57 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183570]Thanks, that's interesting.

Would you be able to provide a quick summary as to the ethnic makeup of Eleutheroupolis/Pravi/Pravishta within the last 200 years (or longer)?[/QUOTE]

I believe Greeks, a few Vlachs and Gypsies (Muslims)

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183568]Are you referring to stressed syllables? In Macedonian, the stress is placed on the first syllable of both Kožani and Mečovo. In Greek, stress is placed on the second syllable of Kozani. Are you suggesting that the stress is placed on the first syllable when you pronounce Metsovo?[/QUOTE]

Yes, Metsovo is stressed in E.

Soldier of Macedon 07-24-2020 08:52 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;183576]My family speak Kosturski but say [I]zab[/I]. We do say [I]ranka[/I] instead of [I]raka[/I] however; I do not know about [I]čedo/čendo[/I].[/QUOTE]
As I indicated earlier, I am not sure if this feature has been consistent among all Macedonian-speakers from Kostur nor about the depth of its use. It is, however, noteworthy that your family doesn't apply the nasal vowel in all cases. Perhaps it's a case of dialect levelling, which essentially means that some dialects (or aspects within) have converged with others, leading to a reduction of heterogeneity in a language. That could also be a reason for the possible shift from *Męčovo > Mečovo, provided that it was indeed pronounced with a nasal vowel in the beginning.
[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183581]Yes, Metsovo is stressed in E.[/QUOTE]
I haven't done any thorough research on this, so maybe you can save me the trouble. I notice that trisyllabic place names that end with an H or I often have the stress on the second syllable when pronounced in Greek, such as Κοζάνη, Μαρούσι and Γαλάτσι, but for those that end with an O or an A the stress is often on the first syllable, hence Μέτσοβο, Τέτοβο, Κρούσοβο, Κόσοβο, Φλώρινα, Βέροια, Πρέβεζα, and Λάρισα. Do you know why the stress isn't placed on the first syllable for Τραγάνα and Καβάλα, given that they too end in A?

Carlin15 07-24-2020 10:20 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183581]I believe Greeks, a few Vlachs and Gypsies (Muslims)[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Will need to dig into this further. I see some obvious discrepancies in terms of ethnic makeup - which is not uncommon or uncharacteristic.

I read that Eleftheroupoli/Pravi/Pravishta is being mentioned as having a Turkish majority until the population exchange of 1920s. Were the Roma (Gypsies) all Muslims, and therefore "Turks"? What were the [I]true Vlachs[/I] as "percentage" of the Greek Christian population?

Here are the 'known ethnic reports', at least what I was able to find here:
[url]https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B0[/url]

1) Towards the end of the 19th century: "Pravishta has about 600 houses of Turks, Greeks and a few Vlachs."

2) By 1900, according to Kanchov's statistics, there were 1,250 Turks, 1,100 Greek Christians and 1,200 Gypsies living in Pravishta.

3) According to the Secretary of the Bulgarian Exarchate Dimitar Mishev in 1905 there were 1,100 Greeks and 1,200 Gypsies in Pravishta.

4) In the 1920s, its Turkish population emigrated under the agreement on population exchange between Greece and Turkey, and in its place were settled Greek refugees (roughly 745 people). In 1929 the town was renamed to Eleutheropolis.

[Accoring to information found here [url]http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2010/05/old-accounts-of-kzderbent.html[/url] [I]"Other Anatolian Bulgarians can be found in the village of Nea Iraklica, of Pravishta"[/I].]

Amphipolis 07-24-2020 04:33 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183588]
I haven't done any thorough research on this, so maybe you can save me the trouble. I notice that trisyllabic place names that end with an H or I often have the stress on the second syllable when pronounced in Greek, such as Κοζάνη, Μαρούσι and Γαλάτσι, but for those that end with an O or an A the stress is often on the first syllable, hence Μέτσοβο, Τέτοβο, Κρούσοβο, Κόσοβο, Φλώρινα, Βέροια, Πρέβεζα, and Λάρισα. Do you know why the stress isn't placed on the first syllable for Τραγάνα and Καβάλα, given that they too end in A?[/QUOTE]

No, anything goes actually. There are no rules of this sort.


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