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Carlin 01-02-2022 11:14 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;184786]"Most of the so-called Greeks of that region ([I]Thrace[/I]) was in fact Gagauz."[/QUOTE]

More on the indigenous population of Thrace.

1) Battle of Lebounion, April 29, 1091 - Emperor Alexios I Comnenos ordered his general Nikephoros Melissenos to recruit Vlachs for the imperial troops. Melissenos went to Ainos (Enez, at the mouth of Maritsa river), which suggests that the native Vlachs in question lived in southern Thrace.

2) June 5, 1205 - Letter written by the Latin emperor of Constantinople Henry I of Hainaut addressed to Pope Innocent III. In that letter, Adrianople is described as surrounded by mountains inhabited by [I]Blachi[/I]: [I]civitas est Grecie munitissima, et montibus tantum interpositis Blachorum affinis populis[/I].

3) According to Basil II's chrysobull for the archbishopric of Ohrid (1019), in the early 11th century the Vlachs lived across the entirety of Samuel's former empire.

Carlin 01-02-2022 12:26 PM

Introduction, page XVII: Presence of a Gagauz population in Evros province in and around the city of Alexandroupolis and in the region of Thourion, and in Rodope province in the villages of Kallithea and Thrilorion.

-- Names, Religious Denominations and Ethnicity of Settlements in Western Thrace, A Supplement to "Ortsnamenkonkordanz Der Balkanhalbinsel", By F. de Jong - 1980

[url]https://twitter.com/alexsakalis/status/1117462392013840384[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 01-03-2022 11:26 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;185724]According to Basil II's chrysobull for the archbishopric of Ohrid (1019), in the early 11th century the Vlachs lived across the entirety of Samuel's former empire.[/QUOTE]
I assume you got this from Madgearu's The Asanids (p. 58). Here is the actual text he is referring to (which he doesn't cite in his book), it is from the second of three charters (sigillia) that were supposedly issued by Basil II.
[QUOTE]Whatever other towns were omitted in the charters of our Majesty, these shall be possessed by the same Archbishop and he shall collect fees from them all as well as from the Vlachs throughout Bulgaria and from the Turks around the Vardar.....[/QUOTE]
In relation to the above, read this excerpt and footnote from Stephenson's The Legend of Basil the Bulgar-Slayer (p. 46).
[QUOTE]Thus, Basil famously issued a series of three [I]sigillia[/I] after c. 1020, which outlined how the ecclesiastical structure of the province was to be reorganized, based on the archbishopric at Ohrid.


f.n. These three [I]sigillia[/I] have only been preserved appended to a later chrysobull, apparently issued in 1272, and then only in one of four manuscripts containing the chrysobull (Cod. Sinait. 508 [976], 17th century). Two further manuscripts contain only a part of the first [I]sigillon[/I], and a third, a Slavonic translation of the chrysobull, nothing. The authenticity of Basil's arrangements have been questioned by two scholars: S. Antoljak, "Dali se avtentički onie tri ispravi na tsarot Vasilij II izdadeni vo korist na Ohridskata arhieskopija," in his [I]Srednovekovna Makedonija[/I], 3 vols. (Skopje, 1985), I, 69-108; E Konstantinou Tegiou-Stergiadou, [I]Ta schetika tin Arhiepiskopi Achridas sigillia tou Vasileou II[/I] (Thessaloniki, 1988).[/QUOTE]
That should provide the context that Madgearu omitted in his passing reference. The chrysobull was apparently issued during the existence of the Vlach-Bulgarian Empire, about 250 years after the death of Basil II. The charter that mentions the Vlachs exists as an attachment to the chrysobull in only one manuscript from the 17th century. There is no mention of Vlachs in the other manuscripts documenting the same chrysobull. Not exactly clear-cut. It is little wonder why, as highlighted above, the authenticity of the content in the charters has been questioned by both Macedonian and Greek scholars.

Carlin, are you aware of anybody from the Roman Empire who mentioned the Vlachs prior to John Scylitzes?

Carlin 01-03-2022 09:25 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;185734]I assume you got this from Madgearu's The Asanids (p. 58). Here is the actual text he is referring to (which he doesn't cite in his book), it is from the second of three charters (sigillia) that were supposedly issued by Basil II.

In relation to the above, read this excerpt and footnote from Stephenson's The Legend of Basil the Bulgar-Slayer (p. 46).

That should provide the context that Madgearu omitted in his passing reference. The chrysobull was apparently issued during the existence of the Vlach-Bulgarian Empire, about 250 years after the death of Basil II. The charter that mentions the Vlachs exists as an attachment to the chrysobull in only one manuscript from the 17th century. There is no mention of Vlachs in the other manuscripts documenting the same chrysobull. Not exactly clear-cut. It is little wonder why, as highlighted above, the authenticity of the content in the charters has been questioned by both Macedonian and Greek scholars.

Carlin, are you aware of anybody from the Roman Empire who mentioned the Vlachs prior to John Scylitzes?[/QUOTE]

Correct SoM. It's from Madgearu's book.

I don't think there are references to "Vlachs" prior to Scylitzes. But there is a mention of Vlachs ([I]vlahorinhini[/I] in the VIII century) in a story concerning a monastery on Athos, however, the monastery manuscript originates from much later, and not from VIII century.

Regardless of that (or their origins) the Vlachs lived in rather substantial numbers in various areas of Thrace (Ainos/Enez, Adrianople region, Bizye/Vize area). By the 19th century, most of them were probably "Greeks".

Soldier of Macedon 01-04-2022 01:45 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;185740]I don't think there are references to "Vlachs" prior to Scylitzes. But there is a mention of Vlachs ([I]vlahorinhini[/I] in the VIII century) in a story concerning a monastery on Athos, however, the monastery manuscript originates from much later, and not from VIII century.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for clarifying, I thought as much when I first read about that. So, it's an anachronistic reference to the Vlachs like those in Basil's supposed charter and the Gesta Hungarorum.
[QUOTE]Regardless of that (or their origins) the Vlachs lived in rather substantial numbers in various areas of Thrace (Ainos/Enez, Adrianople region, Bizye/Vize area).[/QUOTE]
No doubt that Vlachs were present in Thrace. The real question is when. Coincidentally, I have been doing some reading about Vlach origins over the past few days and was going to post something about it before I came across what you wrote on this thread, but wanted to respond first. I will post it shortly in the Romanian thread and would be interested in your thoughts.

Carlin 01-04-2022 08:22 AM

Can't wait!

Liberator of Makedonija 02-06-2022 02:53 AM

[U]Turkish political representatives from Western Thrace meet with members of the 'Krste Misirkov' association near Voden to discuss minority issues in Greece:[/U]

[url]https://vesnik-ilinden.com/partija-na-tursko-malczinstvo-vo-zapadna-trakija-vo-poseta-na-pripadniczite-na-makedonskoto-malczinstvo-vo-egejska-makedonija/?fbclid=IwAR1bAAzpJ52Klt9JVxIi5qq7HIwOlHaGaUxHoeTTV_cmFmTH3uJWMJkhazA[/url]

Carlin 04-03-2022 11:20 PM

"An unexpected insight in the history of [B]Crete[/B] was provided by the IBD analysis. [B]The results showed that the Cretans share high IBD with Western (CEU), Central (German, Polish), Northern (CEU, Scandinavian), and Eastern (Ukranian, Russian) European populations. [/B]Indeed, in previous studies, there has been an excess of IBD sharing reported between Eastern Europe and the Greeks, while an admixture event has been inferred using Poland as a representative population of the eastern component in the Greek population (Hellenthal et al., 2014; Ralph & Coop, 2013). Especially the results of Hellenthal et al. (2014) used GLOBETROTTER to infer (under a pulse‐admixture model that has the same assumptions as ALDER) that [B]Greek DNA could be described as the mixture of 37% DNA from a Polish‐like source and 63% from a Cypriot‐like source occurring sometime between 718–1138 C.E.; our analyses here support these findings[/B]."

"The IBD sharing between Cyprus and Northern/Eastern Europeans could be explained if, as a result of the expansion in Asia Minor of Turkish states in 12th–13th centuries C.E., [B]Byzantine populations, which included Scythians and Slavs, migrated to Cyprus[/B]."

"[B]If the “tribes” that moved to the depopulated Crete included Hellenized Goths (Gothogreeks; Ostrogorsky, 1969; Turtledove, 1982) and Hellenized Slavs (Charanis, 1961) from Asia Minor, the IBD data could be explained[/B]."

[url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6851683/[/url]

Carlin 04-04-2022 09:56 PM

Page 8:

"These three millions of Armenians, Ottoman subjects, are distributed as follows: [B]400,000 at Constantinople and in the Balkan peninsula, 600,000 in Asia Minor and in the plain of Cilicia[/B], 670,000 in Armenia Minor (...), and 1,300,000 in Turkish Major Armenia..."

URL:
[url]https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Armenia_the_Armenians_and_the_Treaties/0ZN-coR6chwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=armenians+constantinople+400,000&pg=PA18&printsec=frontcover[/url]

Carlin 04-06-2022 06:22 PM

The Armenian historian, Sebeos (ch. 6), relates that at a much earlier date the Roman emperor, Maurice, had a scheme for the wholesale deportation to Thrace of the Armenian population living in his dominions. He at the same time proposed to Chosrow that he should deport the Armenians under his rule.

[url]https://www.google.ca/books/edition/%D4%B3%D5%AB%D6%80%D6%84_%D5%B8%D6%80_%D5%AF%D5%B8%D5%B9%D5%AB_%D5%A2%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%A1%D5%AC%D5%AB_%D5%B3%D5%B7/nyE_AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=armenians+thrace&pg=PR137&printsec=frontcover[/url]

Carlin 04-09-2022 04:04 PM

The "Byzantine" army at Lebounion included a [I]tagma[/I] of 5,000 'mountain people' whom Anna Comnene calls [I][B]Areimanioi[/B][/I]. Some have proposed that those were Vlachs, who call themselves [I]Armani[/I].

[I]Areimanis[/I] appears in classical texts, such as Strabo, with the meaning of "full of warlike frenzy" (possessed by the god Ares), as correctly translated in the english edition of the [I]Alexiad[/I]. Anna was very fond of such classical references, by which she wanted to show her sophistication. This, however, does not exclude the possibility of those warriors being Vlachs, as they are said to have come from the mountains.

It is known that on the eve Lebounion, the emperor recruited heavily from among the Bulgarians and [B]Vlachs in southern Thrace[/B] (an area under the command of N. Melissenos).


-- Page 140, A. Magdearu, "Byzantine Military Organization on the Danube, 10th-12th Centuries"

Carlin 04-16-2022 12:09 PM

- For the late 1400s, it is said that Zakynthos and Kephallonia were largely uninhabited at the time of the Venetian take-over in the late 1400s.

- 15th century Peloponnese: According to the first Ottoman fiscal documents the peninsula may have had more Albanian than "Greek" inhabitants.


Pages 192-193: "Coinage and Money in Medieval Greece 1200-1430 (2 vols.)", by Julian Baker

Carlin 05-14-2022 03:00 PM

- "The documents of the Latin Archdiocese of Kephallonia record the presence of the Vlachs in the Ionian Islands in 1274."

- "Under the reign of Sultan Mahomed II (1451-1480), the Vlachs represented about 40% of the population of the Peloponnese."

Page 21, footnotes
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=d5dOEAAAQBAJ&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA21&dq=Valaques+Cephalonie&hl=en&source=newbks_fb&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Valaques%20Cephalonie&f=false[/url]

Carlin 05-14-2022 09:14 PM

Constantine Buhayer (University of Westminster, London) states that [B]"many of the Greeks of Crimea were Ellinovlachi"[/B].

[QUOTE=Onur;123153][B]The so-called Crimean Greeks were native Turkish speakers with Tatar dialect, all of them without any exception.[/B] Already, when they came to Greece, they didn't know a word of Greek.

Their origin is quite clear. We even have books of the western European travelers from 1390 AD which notes the existence of christian Tatars in Crimea, converted by both Byzantine orthodox and western catholic missionaries.

Crimea has been inhabited by Goths [`till 17th century], Turks [`till 20th century] and slavic speaking Ruthenians [to become Ukrainians laters]. [B]I don't think there was any Greeks or Vlachs in there throughout history.[/B][/QUOTE]

Vyron Karidis, The Mariupol Greeks: Tsarist Treatment of an ethnic minority ca. 1778-1859 - Pages 66 & 67:

- "By the late 1770s the Russians, probably in an attempt to weaken the theoretically independent Crimean Khanate, encouraged a great part of its non-Muslim population ([B]Christian Armenians, Georgians, Vlachs and [I]Crimean Greeks[/I][/B]) to emigrate to the steppes of Azov."

- "The exodus started in July 1778. To Alexander Suvorov's report, who played a leading part in the Christian emigration, '[B][I]Greeks[/I], Georgians and Vlachs[/B],' left from 68 various parts of the Crimean peninsula..."


PS:
[url]https://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=165005&postcount=90[/url]

Carlin 06-03-2022 10:33 PM

Testimony of Robert Curzon (1810-1873), of 1849, for his visits, in 1834, to Epirus, Macedonia and Thessaly where he met "Albanians who spoke the Vlach language".

Carlin 06-07-2022 01:09 AM

In 1553, in Salona (now Amfissa), Agrafa and Thessaly lived Vlachs who "were both good Christians and good people."

Carlin 06-08-2022 08:51 AM

- According to John Sibthorp (1758 – 1796; in Walpole's Memoirs, p. 141.), "a wandering tribe of Nomads" on the other side of Greece drive their flocks from the mountains of Thessaly into the plains of Attica and Bæotia to pass the winter.

- Testimony from 1423: Euboea or Evia was also inhabited by Vlachs (Vlachi). (Μνημεία Ελληνικής Ιστορίας - Documents Inedits Relatif a l'Histoire de la Grece au Moyen Age Publias sous les Auspices de la Chambre des Deputes de Grece par C.N. Sathas, Premiere Serie, Documents Tires des Archives de Venice (1400-1500) Tome III, Paris MDCCCLXXXII [1882]).

[Valachos/Vlachi lived in Zitouni (Lamia) and Negroponte (Evia).]

- 1470: the Duke of Messina in NE Sicily was a Vlach (Ulacho).

- 1481: Koroni, in Morea, was inhabited by Vlachi.

Carlin 06-10-2022 09:37 AM

Leake mentions Vlach villages in Mystras (Peloponnese).


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