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Carlin15 07-20-2020 04:03 PM

JOURNAL ARTICLE
BLOOD VENGEANCE ("MAINA") IN SOUTHERN GREECE AND AMONG THE SLAVS
André Mirambel
Byzantion
Vol. 16, No. 2 (1942-1943), pp. 381-392
Published by: Peeters Publishers

[img]https://i.imgur.com/u36oFcX.png[/img]

Soldier of Macedon 07-20-2020 11:30 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183500]Which manner is that?[/QUOTE]
The text in your link stated the following:
[QUOTE]......the words "Vlachs", "Arvanites" and "Arvanitovlachoi" had an indefinite meaning and were used by the people in the sense of nomadic cattle breeders.[/QUOTE]
The question remains. Are there any sources from that period that suggest terms like Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs had an indefinite meaning (generic, non-ethnic) and were used by people in the sense of nomadic cattle breeders? The text seems to be drawing an analogy of the terms Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs with the term Vlach. The last term (Vlach) may have been used in such a manner (in certain contexts), meaning in some cases it generically referred to a shepherd or something similar. What about Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs? Were there non-Albanians in Greece called Arvanites simply for being a cattle breeder?

On a side note, the text also has a link within it regarding the town of Pallini in Attica.
[QUOTE]Θέση της σύγχρονης πόλης αποτελεί το ιστορικό κέντρο του αρβανίτικου οικισμού [B]Χαρβάτι[/B]. Ανήκει στην Περιφερειακή Ενότητα Ανατολικής Αττικής της Περιφέρειας Αττικής.

Location of the modern city is the historical center of the Albanian settlement [B]Harvati[/B]. It belongs to the Regional Unit of East Attica of the Attica Region.[/QUOTE]
Interesting toponym. I note that the modern Greek word for Croatians is Kroates (Κροάτες). However, in the Middle Ages, it was Hrovatoi (Χρωβάτοι). Might be just a coincidence, but it looks very similar to Harvati (Χαρβάτι) post-metathesis ar > ra.

By the way, is Pallini is a Greek toponym? Seems to be a common surname in Italian.

Amphipolis 07-21-2020 02:25 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183511]The text in your link stated the following:

The question remains. Are there any sources from that period that suggest terms like Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs had an indefinite meaning (generic, non-ethnic) and were used by people in the sense of nomadic cattle breeders? The text seems to be drawing an analogy of the terms Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs with the term Vlach. The last term (Vlach) may have been used in such a manner (in certain contexts), meaning in some cases it generically referred to a shepherd or something similar. What about Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs? Were there non-Albanians in Greece called Arvanites simply for being a cattle breeder?

[/QUOTE]

Not exactly but this has been often discussed in the forum, how Arvanitovlachs (i.e. Vlachs from Albania) have fused with Albanians at some occasions or how various Greeks or foreigners confuse them or put them in the same sentence.

Amphipolis 07-21-2020 02:35 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183511]On a side note, the text also has a link within it regarding the town of Pallini in Attica.

Interesting toponym. I note that the modern Greek word for Croatians is Kroates (Κροάτες). However, in the Middle Ages, it was Hrovatoi (Χρωβάτοι). Might be just a coincidence, but it looks very similar to Harvati (Χαρβάτι) post-metathesis ar > ra.

By the way, is Pallini is a Greek toponym? Seems to be a common surname in Italian.[/QUOTE]

The etymology of Harvati (that also appears in 4-5 minor toponyms) is unknown. Here, an Arvanite provides an analysis, his theory is that it is related to Arvanites, but comes from the (recent Greek) word harvalon (ruin).

[URL="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Farvanitika.blogspot.com%2F2014%2F11%2Fblog-post_24.html"]https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Farvanitika.blogspot.com%2F2014%2F11%2Fblog-post_24.html[/URL]


Pallene is an ancient Greek name
[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallene_(Attica)"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallene_(Attica)[/URL]



---------------------------------------------

Soldier of Macedon 07-21-2020 05:52 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183513]Not exactly but this has been often discussed in the forum, how Arvanitovlachs (i.e. Vlachs from Albania) have fused with Albanians at some occasions or how various Greeks or foreigners confuse them or put them in the same sentence.[/QUOTE]
The intermixing of peoples and confusion on the part of others is probable. The likelihood of the term Arvanites being used to refer to any cattle breeder, irrespective of their ancestral background, doesn't seem to be so, at least not in the wholesale way it was described in the text.
[QUOTE]The etymology of Harvati (that also appears in 4-5 minor toponyms) is unknown. Here, an Arvanite provides an analysis, his theory is that it is related to Arvanites, but comes from the (recent Greek) word harvalon (ruin).

[url]https://translate.google.com/transla...g-post_24.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Damn, that is one self-hating Tosk Albanian. I am going to ignore most of his nonsense and just cite some of the text from the link:
[QUOTE]The place name is definitely Arvanite, because the first inhabitants of Harvatio (today's Pallini) were Arvanites. We also find it outside (3 km east) of Loutraki (as a settlement and stream) and Mycenae (the old name of the homonymous village) , areas also with Arvanites. It is also found as a mountain near the Stratos of Etoloakarnania, an area from the first Arvanites who moved and today Arvanitovlachs ( Palaiomanina ) flourish.[/QUOTE]
So, according to him, it is found in Attica, Aetolia-Acarnania and the Peloponnese.
[QUOTE]But we have other place names in Arvanitika that end in -ati (like Strati ).[/QUOTE]
Strati is an Albanian place name? Interesting theory. Do you believe that? Or do you think Strati is the Greek short form or colloquial way of saying Stratis?
[QUOTE]The name Harvati, therefore, has to do with a geographical characterization, a special peculiarity related to the soil and its curves or possibly with some features of flora. It seems difficult to know exactly, as in many other cases of Arvanite toponyms. , that the physiognomy of the area is captured, but we can not first identify the exact meaning of the identification.[/QUOTE]
Intriguing paragraph. I am sure it makes perfect sense to him.
[QUOTE]The word does not exist in the Medieval Dictionary of Kriaras, nor in the Dictionary of Markos Mousouros (Etymological mega alphabetically very useful, 1499) which means that the place name emerged after the 16th century.[/QUOTE]
That's convenient. Do Greek dictionaries record and provide explanations for foreign place names or those of unknown origin, especially if that word is not used as part of the language? If not, I don't see how the quoted statement is relevant. If so, I would be interested to know what the older dictionaries entered for Dragomesti (the name of Astakos prior to the 19th century), which, coincidentally, is also in Aetolia-Acarnania, or what any of them enter for Kozani.
[QUOTE]We know, from various sources, that the area in the Byzantine years (from the time of Rome already) was abandoned, barren and empty. This is how the Arvanites found it when they went there.[/QUOTE]
Do you agree with that?
[QUOTE]...popular word Harvalias just meant rimadio, ruin, everything neglected or dialymeno.To Harvalias arose from chalavron or (with permutation) charavron in medieval adjective chalavros , parallel importance to loose the archaias.I word is alive today ( xecharvalono ).....Haravati or Harabati in the idiom of the Visaltia Province of Serres means something dissolved or deconstructed. The toponym is found in Nigrita but also in the mountain: "Ston Harvatis". idiom dictionary: Terpniotika and Nigritina ", Athens 2000, refers to it as Harabati = bad mess: we became Harabati = dissolved but produces it from the Turkish harabat. Of course Turkish also has a lot of borrowings from other languages. And in the region Visaltias were sporadically spoken and Arvanitika was spoken by some families who came from elsewhere.)[/QUOTE]
He suggests that harabati is present in an idiom called Terpniotika, which comes from the village of Terpni (called Tserpista in Greek pre-1923 before they modified). It used to be Cherpishta. Anyway, the Turkish word haraba also has an equivalent in Uzbek as xarob - both of them mean "ruin". Are you sure the Greek word you mentioned, haravalon, is not a Turkish loan into Greek?

Carlin15 07-21-2020 10:42 AM

[B]According to Max Vasmer, "Harvati" goes back to the tribal name of the Croatians (Old Slavonic: *Chr̥vati).[/B] In addition to the fact that this tribal name can be found on ancient Sorbian soil and in the Kashubian language area, we have many traces of it in southern Slavic.

Link:
[url]http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_12.htm#17[/url]

[B]In Macedonia, there is actually a village with the name Arvati near Lake Prespa:[/B]
[url]https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8#%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%BE_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE[/url]

This village appeared under various forms of the present name ([B]Harvati, Harvat, Hrvati, and Arvati[/B]) and its existence has been recorded in several sources from different periods.

There is also the following, which seems to confirm the connection:

"Another mass migration of Macedonians took place between the years 1751 and 1753 this time from Austria and Hungary to Russia. Here is a typical story of one man's journey that could apply to every Macedonian immigrant who ventured into Austria and Hungary. [B]His name is [U]Ivan Horvat[/U], a Vlach from Macedonia.[/B] His father's name was Samoil. [B]Samoil came to Austria from the village Horvat, located in Dolna Prespa Region, later renamed Horvati then Rvati. [U]Today the Village is called Arvati[/U].[/B] Samoil fought in the Karposh Uprising and after its suppression fled to Austria where he became Lieutenant Colonel in the Austrian army. Ivan was born in Petrovaradin and as he advanced through the army ranks he achieved the rank Major in an infantry regiment."

Link:
[url]https://documents-mk.blogspot.com/2016/06/early-macedonian-diaspora.html[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 07-22-2020 12:02 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;183518][B]In Macedonia, there is actually a village with the name Arvati near Lake Prespa:[/B]
[url]https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8#%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%BE_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks Carlin, that was an interesting read. Based on the accounts of the local population and that Polish linguist (Włodzimierz Pianka), the name of the village derives from Croatian settlers in Macedonia from the 16th and 17th centuries. As Macedonian dialects usually drop the 'h' in front of a vowel (for example, hajde > ajde, hubavo > ubavo, etc.), it makes sense that the village was once called Horvat/Harvati but today it is Arvati.
[QUOTE][B]According to Max Vasmer, "Harvati" goes back to the tribal name of the Croatians (Old Slavonic: *Chr̥vati).[/B] In addition to the fact that this tribal name can be found on ancient Sorbian soil and in the Kashubian language area, we have many traces of it in southern Slavic. Link: [url]http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_12.htm#17[/url[/QUOTE]
The difference between the locations which have the same toponym in Macedonia and Greece, is that the Macedonian village is from a much later period. I am not aware of any Croatian settlers in Greece at the end of the late Middle Ages, so it may be that these place names in the Peloponnese and elsewhere were established before this period, from the 7th century or some time afterwards, when Greece was flooded with peoples who spoke Slavic languages.

In my previous post I mentioned Kozani. In Wikipedia they provide the following explanation for its etymology. I am still amazed at how much latitude is afforded to Greeks (and Bulgars/others) when it comes to their input on Macedonian topics, yet their own topics are hardly ever scrutinised. Anyway, from Wikipedia:
[QUOTE]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani

[B]According to prevailing opinion[/B] in Greece, the name comes from the village of Epirus Kósdiani, the origin of settlers of Kozani in 1392. The settlement was first named Kózdiani, which then, it was changed into Kóziani, and in the end into Kozáni.[/QUOTE]
The "prevailing opinion" (apparently a credible source in Wikipedia these days) leads to a dead link, where the website can only be accessed as an archive. In that archive, it is basically a copy of the Greek Wikipedia, but translated into English (except they call the Turks as Turkalvani, for good measure):
[QUOTE]https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%BF%CE%B6%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7

In 1392 settlers coming from Premedi, Vythikouki and Kozdani of Epirus, fled hunted by the Turks [B]in the area north of Selitsa ([U]which[/U] until today is called Paliokozdani)[/B] and then migrating east they met the Christian settlement in Kalyvia. [4] The inhabitants of Kalyvia did not alienate them, but forced them to build their homes further east. The new inhabitants named the area Jamouria, saving the maiden name of their old area. Today the area is called Jabra. Also, the rocky hill above Jabra was named Scrika or Skirka (Sk'rka), which means rocky hill. Although there are various versions of the name of the city the most prevalent is that these [U]settlers of Epirus named the new settlement Kosdiani which was then converted into Koziani and the later scholars transformed it into Kozani[/U]. The inhabitants of old and new settlements unite in a new single community, build a church, build aqueducts and fountaines. The first recorded reference to Kozani is made in a sultanic firmani of 1528,as a settlement with 91 houses, 23 bachelors and 15 widows.[/QUOTE]
The highlighted section has a link (on the word "which") that leads to the town of Eratira, which was called Selitsa until 1928 - an obvious Macedonian place name.
[QUOTE]https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CF%85%CF%81%CE%B1_%CE%9A%CE%BF%CE%B6%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82

Eratira is a town in the municipality of Voos,the regional unit of Kozani.........It is 12 km from Siatista and 42 km from Kozani.........Until 1928,which took its name, it was called Selitsa and the first reference to it was in the Code of Zavorda of 1534.[/QUOTE]
Selitsa is only about 40km away from Kozani. Yet, according to the Wikipedia entries, the name of the latter changed from Kosdiani to Kozani. I also tried searching for Paliokozdani (Παλιοκόζδιανη), as the entry in Wikipedia suggests that the area in or near Selitsa is still called by that name. However, all I found in the first page of Google results was the exact same text from Wikipedia. I didn't bother searching anymore. Meanwhile, the Macedonian name of the town, Kozhani (Кожани), has a Macedonian etymology that makes perfect sense. Further, in Poland, there is a village with same name:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%BCany

So, what does Kozani or Kosdiani mean in Greek?

Amphipolis 07-22-2020 01:15 AM

If I understand correctly this opinion is (first?) found in the book of Panagiotis Lioufis on the history of Kozani (1924). This is quite extended (google translation)

[URL="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Feranistis.net%2Fwordpress%2F2014%2F08%2F24%2F%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2581%25CE%25AF%25CE%25B1-%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582-%25CE%25BA%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B6%25CE%25AC%25CE%25BD%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582-%25CF%2580%25CF%2581%25CF%258E%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B9-%25CF%2583%25CF%2585%25CE%25BD%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CE%25BC%2F"]https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Feranistis.net%2Fwordpress%2F2014%2F08%2F24%2F%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2581%25CE%25AF%25CE%25B1-%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582-%25CE%25BA%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B6%25CE%25AC%25CE%25BD%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582-%25CF%2580%25CF%2581%25CF%258E%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B9-%25CF%2583%25CF%2585%25CE%25BD%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CE%25BC%2F[/URL]

Edit: I also updated Wikipedia, where you can find an active link to (more or less) similar material from the city's website



===

Soldier of Macedon 07-22-2020 02:23 AM

So that is where all of the other websites obtained their information. From your link:
[QUOTE]Settlers from Epirus

And while this was the case, around 1390, settlers from Premeti , Bithikouki and Kosdiani , who could not withstand the pressures and the violent change of their religion, migrated from there and moving further east occupied a stronghold an hour away from the mountain, above Selitsa, they parked in the place, started to build huts and named the place Koziani from the deserted Kostiani or Kostaniani , a city of Epirus located in the province of Pogoniani.

Principles and names of the settlement

Shortly after the settlement of the refugees (1392) above Selitsa and while scattered in the area Koniarides settlers from the East - who occupied current places and fertile places expelling the old tenants - the inhabitants of the new colony suffered a lot and did not suffer much were safe in the area, moved east and after finding a Christian settlement next to Kalivia stayed there; the inhabitants of Kalivia did not completely alienate them, but forced them to build their houses further east, near the forest, next to a rocky outcrop, northwest of abutment of Vermio, above the present city; they named the area Tsamuria, saving the nickname of their old cradle. Thus, a settlement was formed and the city was named Kostiani or Kosdiani with a rougher accent, later known as Kozianin , which later scholars transformed into Greek in Kozani. Near the place of Tsamra, they also named the adjacent rocky slope of the hill Skrikan or Skirkan, a name that indicates a rocky place.

Validity of delivery

After careful research and diligent control, [B]I accepted this tradition as the safest in history, since it came from reliable people, who were simple[/B], but researched the sources and history of the city and more than the late Nanno Yanco, who He was a descendant of a family that came from Epirus together with the families of Siomou, Giannousi, Konti, Lousiani, Bunou, Shiakavara, Rousi, Vliora, Karakasi, Koutsosimou, Laskou, Louia, Lakova, Bassimou (Tzimoulai, Tsioui Hatzikonstantinou, Moustaka, Mouka, Smiliou etc. I wonder how this essential tradition escaped the research of those who have written so far, and especially Gounaropoulos, who had his mind on those later and childish rumors.

[B]According to the above, the name of the city is now clearly explained[/B], arises from the evolution of history and is interpreted based on the patriotism of the first Greek settlers who came from Epirus, who to console kept the name of their deserted homeland and re-established a new Kosdiani . In this way, the name of the site Paleokosdiani is explained , which has been saved until today on the mountain above Selitsa, one hour northeast of it. According to eyewitnesses, insignificant traces of an old settlement are preserved in the location we mentioned, while in 1906 a church was built there and every year a festival is held in memory of St. Mark.[/QUOTE]
Are there any older sources that (1) refer to Kozani as Kosdiani, (2) mention this Kosdiani in Epirus from where these people apparently came and (3) mention Paliokozdani? And what is the suggested Greek etymology of this word?

By the way, some of those family names look Macedonian, Vlach or Albanian.

Amphipolis 07-22-2020 02:43 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183524]So that is where all of the other websites obtained their information. From your link:

Are there any older sources that (1) refer to Kozani as Kosdiani, (2) mention this Kosdiani in Epirus from where these people apparently came and (3) mention Paliokozdani? And what is the suggested Greek etymology of this word?

By the way, some of those family names look Macedonian, Vlach or Albanian.[/QUOTE]

This is answered here (also very extended, google translation, includes alternative views)

[URL="https://translate.google.gr/translate?hl=el&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Feranistis.net%2Fwordpress%2F2014%2F08%2F22%2F%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B6%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%82-%CF%80%2F"]https://translate.google.gr/translate?hl=el&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Feranistis.net%2Fwordpress%2F2014%2F08%2F22%2F%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B6%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%82-%CF%80%2F[/URL]


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