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tchaiku 04-22-2017 07:31 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167885]I am not aware of coming across this before - so I'm adding it here. It is found in a Bulgarian book, written by Yordan Ivanov.

[U]Footnote 3[/U] (the text in Greek) basically states that [I]the [B]Sklavini [/B]devastated all Thessaly, nearby islands and those of Helada, also the Cyclades along with entire Achaia, Epirus, the bigger part of Illyricum and part of Asia[/I].

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/1_zpszjupngyg.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/1_zpszjupngyg.png[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]

Good find. So Vlachs settled there later.

Carlin 04-22-2017 07:37 AM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/123_zpswn9kkgiw.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/123_zpswn9kkgiw.png[/IMG][/URL]

tchaiku 04-23-2017 02:38 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167771][B][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]SLAVS IN MIDDLE AGES
[/COLOR]
[/I]
a) Mazaris wrote:

[B][I]«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].
[/I]
"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).
[/B]
[/QUOTE]

Μάζαρις (Mazaris) :

«[I][B]Δέδοικα ουν ίνα μη γένωμαι και αυτός διατρίβων εν Σπάρτη ώσπερ εν τη Κωνσταντίνου γέγονεν ο Πελοποννήσιος εκείνος, Συναδινός ο Κορμέας, ή ίνα μη βαρβαρωθώ και αυτός ώσπερ άρα βεβαρβάρωνταί γε οι Λάκωνες, και νυν κέκληνται Τζάκωνες, και πιάσον τα και σφίξον τα, και δώσον τα, και ήμενον, και ηρχόντησαν, και καθεζούτησαν, και έλαδε, πα, και αιτιτοίωσέν (ετετοίωσέν) τον, και άλλ’ άττα βάρβαρα λέγουσιν[/B][/I]» [Μάζαρις 1831, 164 και Μάζαρις 1860, 230].


Google Translate:
"I do not know what I am, and he is in Sparta while Constantine is the Peloponnesian who is, the Syrian of Kormeas, or is not barbarous, and hence [B][U]the barbarians of the Laconians[/U][/B], and now Jacokes are called, and as long as they tighten them, They gave birth to them, and they lived, and they departed, and received, and cried out, and [B][U]another barbarous word.[/U][/B] "[Mavaris 1831, 164 and Mavaris 1860, 230].

Carlin 04-23-2017 09:01 AM

Mazaris described the characteristic features of each one of the ethnic groups in the Peloponnese.

The Laconians, he says, were known for their "vanity and perfidy... their tendency toward slander and blackmail, their bragging and drunkenness, their utter miserliness and low cunning". The Slavs were cruel, savage, brutal, bloodthirsty, known for their "robbery and barbarity, their hatred of the powers that be, their hatred of God". The Albanians (the text has Illyrians) influenced others by "their deceit and spying, their brutal methods of levying taxes, their soberness in the matter of clothing and luxuries... their thievishness, their fickleness, and their sly, crooked ways".

The "Laconians", or "Tsacones", were a people whose origin was associated with the invasion of the peninsula by the "Slavs".

The existence of Jewish communities at the time of Mazaris is well known, and the evidence for the significant presence of Gypsies is very good. The information about the Gypsies in the region of Nauplion and in Modon is particularly detailed (=> George C. Soulis, "The Gypsies in the Byzantine Empire and the Balkans in the Late Middle Ages", Dumbarton Oaks Papers 15 (1961), 152-154).

Returning to the Slavs - the historian Menander in one fragment wrote: "While Hellas was pillaged by the Slavs and successive perils gathered against her from every side, Tiberius, who did not have capable forces to fight, not even against one detachment of his enemies... sent an embassy to the prince of the Avars".

Another source of evidence consists of two entries in the Latin chronicle of John of Biclar. One of these entries reads: "... the Avars were driven from the borders of Thrace and occupied parts of Greece (Graecia) and Pannonia."

And the other: "The people of the Slavs devastated Illyricum and Thrace".

[I]On the demography of medieval Greece : a problem solved[/I]
Peter Charanis

[B]Link[/B]:
[url]https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/view/5113[/url]

tchaiku 04-23-2017 09:09 AM

Isidore of Kiev referred to Laconians as barbaric according to Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium.

tchaiku 04-23-2017 10:43 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167906]
The "Laconians", or "Tsacones", were a people whose origin was ultimately associated with the invasion of the peninsula by the "Slavs". (Charanis though considers "Tsacones" as descendants of [I]ancient Hellenes[/I].)[/QUOTE]

How so? Can you explain in details?

Carlin 04-23-2017 04:25 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167912]How so? Can you explain in details?[/QUOTE]

Here are the quotes from Charanis (which I do not endorse):

- "The Laconians were the particular group of Greek speakers, the inhabitants of the mountain regions of eastern Peloponnese, often referred to by late Byzantine writers also as Tsacones and [B]whose origin was associated with the invasion of the peninsula by the Slavs[/B]. The Peloponnesians must be identified with the general Greek speaking populations found throughout the empire, numerically the strongest element of its population as a whole, the [I]Romaioi[/I] of the Byzantine texts."

- "To what extent the Greek speakers of the Peloponnese represented the old native stock is a question which is, of course, most difficult, if not impossible to answer, but there can be no doubt that they included the remnants of that stock."

[url]https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/view/5113[/url]
[U]
Would you be able to provide the citation from Isidore of Kiev regarding the [I]barbaric[/I] Laconians?[/U]

Carlin 04-23-2017 05:39 PM

What was the scale and impact of Roman colonization and immigration into Peloponnese & Greece? I am usually told, and hear, that the impact was minimal and that the number of colonists was not large (and that those who arrived were almost immediately hellenized).

[I][B]Processes of Cultural Change and Integration in the Roman World[/B][/I]
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=VDkLCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Roman+soldiers+settle+Patras+Corinth&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Roman%20soldiers%20settle%20Patras%20Corinth&f=false[/url]

Page 154: This paper presents the results of such context-specific case study. It focuses on the city of [B]Patras[/B], which was [B]colonized by Augustus in 14 B.C[/B]. [B]Colonization entailed a [U]massive influx of foreigners[/U] into the city[/B], among them [B]a large number of Roman army veterans.[/B]

Page 156: The [B]colonization[/B] of Patras took place in the context of the reorganization of Greece that was s[B]tarted by Caesar and continued by Augustus[/B].

Page 158: The settlement of veterans from Antony's legions after the battle of Actium must have posed a serious problem for Augustus, since, according to some estimations, [B]there were about [U]35,000[/U] veterans[/B] who had to be accommodated; [B]Patras was just one destination[/B] for the veterans. ...... [B]A third wave of immigration[/B] has been suggested by Keppie and Rizakis ........ The process of [B]large-scale immigration[/B] entailed major disruptions to local society. In the case of Patras the act of [B]colonization and the immigration of thousands of colonists[/B] led to a radical overthrow of the established order of things.





Who were then the medieval [I]Romaioi[/I] and [I]Tsacones[/I] of Peloponnese?

Carlin 04-23-2017 07:47 PM

[I]The History of Leo the Deacon: Byzantine Military Expansion in the Tenth Century[/I], by Leo (the Deacon)
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=RCDsV41k8A0C&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=Armenians+Romans+other+rabble+Crete&source=bl&ots=dR2lQ_TkLQ&sig=nHLwExgOmJAGaSclGL7RlQ4ZDuk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiU_ve-7LvTAhUG0YMKHe9kAG0Q6AEIKDAB#v=onepage&q=Armenians%20Romans%20other%20rabble%20Crete&f=false[/url]

Page 46 -

At II:8 Leo says that Phokas settled Crete after its conquest with "bands of [B]Armenians[/B], [B]Romans[/B], and other rabble," reflecting the policy of providing plots of land to soldiers in return for the obligation of military service.

The quote can also be found here [I]Leonis diaconi Caloėnsis Historia libri decem: et liber de Velitatione ...[/I]
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=GCMAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3&dq=%22leonis+diaconi%22&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22leonis%20diaconi%22&f=false[/url]

Interesting how in the Latin translation it states: ...contuberniis [B]Armeniorum[/B], [B]Romanorum[/B], convenarum hominum eo in coloniam deductis...

tchaiku 04-24-2017 07:42 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167919]Would you be able to provide the citation from Isidore of Kiev regarding the [I]barbaric[/I] Laconians?[/QUOTE]

No, unfortunately I cannot find any reference of him.

[url]https://www.docdroid.net/FzrTqxX/oxford-dictionary-of-byzantium-3-volumes-1991.pdf.html#page=2181[/url]

So what are your thoughts on Tsakones?

Barbaric could mean many things.


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