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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

tchaiku 04-29-2018 08:55 AM

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Eleusis_-_Du_Moncel_Th%C3%A9odore_-_1843.jpg[/IMG]
Albanians in Eleusis.

Carlin15 04-29-2018 09:27 PM

[url=https://imgur.com/KRuDEf2][img]http://i.imgur.com/KRuDEf2.jpg[/img][/url]

Carlin15 05-02-2018 05:54 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;173104]Basically what Howell is saying; is that old Greek is no longer spoken like it used to be ... well well neither is today. The Greek language that Romans used was not Doric, Ionic, Aeolic or any other native Hellenic dialect. They used Koine Greek. Which is what this is all about.

The author did not imply that there were no Greek speakers. He, however, leaves an important note that Slavonic is spoken in Epirus and Macedonia. Macedonia is an other story, but weren't Slavs in Epirus hellenized much earlier? Also did Albanians and Vlachs become the next dominant element in the religion?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you are right, perhaps (likely) not.

How are the following two testimonies explained away?

I've already shared them before, and it applies directly to Thessaly and adjacent regions.

URL:
[url]http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=167556[/url]

1) Anonymi Descriptio Europae orientalis. Imperium Constantinopolitanum, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Ungaria, Polonia, Bohemia. Anno MCCCVIII exarata. Cracoviae, 1916: [B]As per the anonymous traveler of Eastern Europe from the [U]XIV century[/U], it is stated that Vlachs (whom the author calls "Blasi"), are a numerous people living [U]between Macedonia, Achaia and Salonika[/U].[/B]

2) Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, [U]1774[/U]: [B]The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of [U]Thessaly[/U] and Macedonia.[/B]

Liberator of Makedonija 05-02-2018 08:25 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;173158]2) Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, [U]1774[/U]: [B]The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of [U]Thessaly[/U] and Macedonia.[/B][/QUOTE]

3/4 of Macedonia was Vlach? Curious to know what Thunmann's definion of Macedonia was.

tchaiku 05-03-2018 04:54 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;173158]Perhaps you are right, perhaps (likely) not.

How are the following two testimonies explained away?

I've already shared them before, and it applies directly to Thessaly and adjacent regions.

URL:
[url]http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=167556[/url]

1) Anonymi Descriptio Europae orientalis. Imperium Constantinopolitanum, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Ungaria, Polonia, Bohemia. Anno MCCCVIII exarata. Cracoviae, 1916: [B]As per the anonymous traveler of Eastern Europe from the [U]XIV century[/U], it is stated that Vlachs (whom the author calls "Blasi"), are a numerous people living [U]between Macedonia, Achaia and Salonika[/U].[/B]

2) Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, [U]1774[/U]: [B]The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of [U]Thessaly[/U] and Macedonia.[/B][/QUOTE]

I never claimed there were never (large number of) Vlachs in these regions.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia[/url]

I have actually changed my mind, I now believe that Vlachs of Epirus were hellenized during 1700s mostly. I will elaborate on this later with more additional evidence which I have found.

The estimation of Johann Thunmann is interesting, I have seen this before and I wanted to ask you (before) based on what did the author made this estimation, on medieval Byzantine sources? Or did he actually visit Greece?

Liberator of Makedonija 05-03-2018 05:27 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;173162]I never claimed there were never (large number of) Vlachs in these regions.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia[/url]

I have actually changed my mind, I now believe that Vlachs of Epirus were hellenized during 1700s mostly. I will elaborate on this later with more additional evidence which I have found.

The estimation of Johann Thunmann is interesting, I have seen this before and I wanted to ask you (before) based on what did the author made this estimation, on medieval Byzantine sources? Or did he actually visit Greece?[/QUOTE]


There's a thread on Great Wallachia/Great Vlachia/Vlach Thessaly if you care to move some info there :thumbup1:

Carlin15 05-03-2018 07:30 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;173162]I never claimed there were never (large number of) Vlachs in these regions.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia[/url]

I have actually changed my mind, I now believe that Vlachs of Epirus were hellenized during 1700s mostly. I will elaborate on this later with more additional evidence which I have found.

The estimation of Johann Thunmann is interesting, I have seen this before and I wanted to ask you (before) based on what did the author made this estimation, on medieval Byzantine sources? Or did he actually visit Greece?[/QUOTE]

Ok no prob. Thanks in advance for the additional evidence you will share with us.

Carlin15 05-05-2018 02:48 PM

Ο σπόρος του Ρήγα βλάστησε την Εθνεγερσία του Εικοσιένα οπότε οι [B]Βλάχοι[/B] σπεύδουν στην πρώτη γραμμή της φωτιάς από την πρώτη στιγμή. Είναι έτοιμοι από καιρό. Όταν το 1805, μετά πολιορκία 4,5 μηνών, τα στρατεύματα του Αλή Πασά καταλαμβάνουν τη Νάουσα, οι υπερασπιστές της πραγματοποιούν μια ηρωϊκή έξοδο βγαίνουν στα βουνά και καταλήγουν στον Όλυμπο. [B]Είναι οι Βλάχοι Διαμαντής Νικολάου αρματολός της Καστανιάς, Ρομφέης από τη Σιάτιστα, Νιόπλιος από την Καστοριά και Γιάννης Φαρμάκης από το Μπλάτσι. Στον Όλυμπο συνάζονται και άλλοι Βλάχοι αρματολοί: ο θρυλικός Νικοτσάρας και οι φοβεροί Λαζέοι απ’ το Βλαχολίβαδο και την Μηλιά, ο παπα-Θύμιος Βλαχάβας από την Καλαμπάκα, ο Γεώργιος Σύρος από τα Σέρβια, ο Μπουκουβάλας από την Θεσσαλία, οι Μπιζιωταίοι από τα Χάσια και τα Σέρβια, ο Γιάννης Σταθάς από τον Βάλτο, γαμπρός του Μπουκουβάλα, οι Τζαχειλαίοι των Τεμπών.[/B] [B]Σ’ αυτούς καταφεύγει και ο Θεόδωρος Κολοκοτρώνης μετά τον χαλασμό Κολοτρωναίων στον Μοριά.[/B] Σύντομα το 1807 ξεσπάει ένας ακόμη ρωσοτουρκικός πόλεμος και καταπλέει στο Αιγαίο η ρωσική αρμάδα υπό τον ναύαρχο Δημήτρη Σινιάβιν. Τότε οι Βλάχοι αρματολοί κατέρχονται από τον Όλυμπο και αρματώνουν επτά πειρατικά καράβια, που φέρουν τα ονόματα «Άσπρη Θάλασσα», «Κασσάνδρα», «Όλυμπος», «Βάλτος», «Μοριάς» και «Σκιάθος». Ο στόλος των κουρσάρων, με έδρα την Σκιάθο, κάνει συνεχείς καταδρομές στην Χαλκιδική μέχρι τα παράλια τείχη της Θεσσαλονίκης. Την δόξα τους τραγουδάει η λαϊκή μούσα στο Δημοτικό Τραγούδι.

Riga's seed germinated the Nation, so the Vlachs rush to the front line of fire from the first moment. They are ready for a long time. When in 1805, after a siege of 4.5 months, the troops of Ali Pasha occupy Naoussa, its defenders make a heroic exit to the mountains and end up in Mount Olympus. They are the Vlachs Diamantis Nicolaos, the Kastania armatole, the Rompheis from Siatista, Nioplios from Kastoria and Giannis Farmakis from Blatsi, etc etc. Other armatole Vlachs: the legendary Nikotsaras and the awesome Lazeoi from Vlacholivado and Milia, Papa-Thymios Vlahavas from Kalambaka, George Syros from Servia, Boukouvalas from Thessaly, the Biziataioi from Hassia and Servia, Yannis Stathas from Valtos, the Tzaheliaioi of Tempi.

URL - Λ. Σ. Μεγαλολιβαδιωτών Πάικου: “Οι Αρμάνοι στο Βασιλικόν Γένος μας και στον Ιερό Αγώνα του 1821”:
[url]http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2017/04/1821.html#more[/url]

Carlin15 05-05-2018 05:02 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;172997]I'm far from certain and confident that we can interpret the terms [I]ulah[/I] and [I]rum[/I] in a manner illustrated above.

The Ottoman chancery used the term "Vlach" as an adminstrative fiscal term for pastoral clan groups performing certain services for the state, including those of military character, in exchange for tax exemptions or reductions. Since ethnic or religious identities of "Vlachs" were not a matter of the Ottoman's chancery concern, but the groups' services to the state, pastoral mode of production, and taxes they were required to pay, the term "Vlach" in the Ottoman documents might sometimes denote population that is not in a strict sense Vlach.

Similarly to the term "Vlach", the terms "Rum" or say "Yuruk" had an adminstrative meaning as well. For example, the term "Yuruk" lost its exclusive ethnic quality and became predominantly a "legal term" when it entered adminstrative use along the introduction of Yuruk kanuns in the time of Mehmed II. The terms "yurukluk" and "yurukculuk" in Ottoman adminstrative sources, denote primarily a distinctive social category, militarised status and special tax regulation.

In Ottoman documents from the 17th century, there are a group of fermans, berats and huccets, in which the term "Vlach" is COMBINED with the terms Surf/Serf ("Serb") and RUM. The second, [U]rather ambiguous term[/U] RUM, obviously originates from the identification of the 'Byzantium' with the Eastern Roman Empire, which borrowed its name to the Ottoman possessions in the Balkans as well: Rum-ili ("Land of the [U]Romans[/U]"), i.e. Rumelia. Vlach adoption of Orthodox Christianity, as well as Byzantine culture, tradition and heritage might led to their identification with the Byzantines as Rums, which seems to be acknowledged by the Ottomans as well. It shall be emphasised that the Rum identity was much wider than the ([I]Assumed[/I]) Greek one, and it integrated all followers of the Orthodox Church, the institution that outlived the Byzantine Empire.

In Ottoman adminstrative use the following COMBINATIONS OF TERMS are documented (a few examples):

- [U]Rum[/U] ve Sirf ve Eflak keferesinin ayinleri = "rites/customs of the [U]Orthodox Christian[/U], Serbian and Vlach unbelievers" in ferman from 1615;

- Serf ve Eflak milletinde olan rahibler = "priests in the Serbian and Vlach [U]millet[/U]" in a berat from 1626;

- [U]Rum[/U] ve Serf ve Eflak dinleri = "the creeds of the [U]Orthodox Christians[/U], Serbs and Vlachs" in huccet from 1662;

- [U]Rum[/U] ve Sirf ve Eflak piskoposlari = "bishops of the [U]Orthodox Christians[/U], Serbs and Vlachs" in ferman from 1669;

- [U]Rum[/U] ve Sirf ve Eflak keferesi patrikleri = "patriarchs of the [U]Orthodox Christian[/U], Serb and Vlach infidels" in huccet of 1688, etc.

The use of multiple names - RUM, SIRF/SERF and EFLAK - however, does not necessarily mean the existence of three distinct identities/ethnicities at the given date, but probably reflects other/earlier realities and/or socio-economic categories. Interestingly, all citations / examples provided above are largely from the regions of Bosnia/Herzegovina (but apply elsewhere throughout the Balkans) - so one would be rather foolish in this case here to assert and argue that the term RUM had ethnic and/or linguistic meaning and value (i.e. = Greek).

Another curious fact, unrelated perhaps, is that Bosnian Franciscan writers and chroniclers in the 17th and 18th centuries did not use the "ethnonym" Serbs to denote the Orthodox Christians in Bosnia but, apart from polemical "schismatics" or "Old believers", most widely employed the term "VLACHS" (VLASI). For example, the 18th century Franciscan chronicler Nikola Lashvanin depicted attempts of the Serbian Orthodox Christian patriarch to collect taxes from the Catholics and allegedly convert them to the Orthodox Christianity, as "VLACHIZATION". So, why did the Bosnian Franciscans, as indigenous people that were usually well aware of local particularities, not use the term "Serb" in the period when it was widely in use by the Orthodox clergy and even Ottoman chancery, but preferred terms "Vlach" in general or "GREEK" (Grk) and "schismatic Greek patriarch" (Scismaticus Patriarca Graecus) when referring to the patriarch or higher clergy? Note - the traditional use of the term "GREEK" in the meaning of "Orthodox Christian" in the Western Christendom corresponded to the use of the term "Rum" in the Ottoman case.

Despite the irrelevance of ethnic origin on the adminstrative definition of Vlach status, its general significance should not be overlooked. I will reiterate the point here one more time that the term "Rum" is perhaps [U]the most ambiguous term[/U] in terms of usage, and largely denoted "Orthodox Christians" (perhaps "[I]Romans[/I]" in a national-religious sense).

As a result, I would be rather cautious interpreting the terms as you have - or as your source did (since we don't have the full context), even if we are talking about Thessaly.

My source for all of the above is:

[B]Being an Ottoman Vlach: On Vlach Identity (Ies), Role and Status in Western Parts of the Ottoman Balkans (15th - 18th centuries) by Vjeran Kursar.[/B]

One more thing regarding the term "Rum" - note that the Morrocan ambassador to Istanbul in 1589 reported that the "[I][COLOR="Blue"]Muslims who live in that city now [B]call themselves Rum[/B] and prefer that origina to their own. Among them, too, calligraphy is called [B]khatt rumi[/B].[/COLOR][/I]"

How then did these Muslims use and understand the term RUM? What did the term RUM mean in 1589 Instanbul? Why / how would we assume that the term RUM in this specific context meant Greeks (or association with the Greek language), i.e. that these Muslims actually called themselves Greeks? Could we make that leap of faith? Why would we - as it clearly states in the same quote that Istanbul was the [B]city of [U]caesars[/U][/B] (Roman Caesars), capital of the [B]Lands of [U]Rum[/U][/B] (Roman Lands)?

Here is a screenshot where the quote comes from - perhaps the entire page is worth a read (this does not mean / imply that I agree 100% with the views expressed below).

[url=https://imgur.com/7QiIMsG][img]http://i.imgur.com/7QiIMsG.png[/img][/url]

PS:
In the early Islamic sources, Bilad al-Rum (countries of Rum) meant "Byzantine" territory, and Muslim scholars such as Bukhari, Tabari, and Masudi referred to these lands as “Rum.” The natural frontier of Bilad al-Rum was defined by the Taurus Mountains and the Euphrates. [U]The term began to be applied to the Seljuks in Anatolia[/U], who were called Selçukiyan-ı Rum, setting them apart from the Seljuks in Baghdad. For the Ottomans, the term was used to refer to, among other meanings, the country that they inhabited, Memleket-i Rum (the country of Rum). <-- From Zeynep Aydoğan.[/QUOTE]

[url=https://imgur.com/NAuOcvH][img]http://i.imgur.com/NAuOcvH.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/cGHsHfz][img]http://i.imgur.com/cGHsHfz.png[/img][/url]

R U M = V L A C H S

Carlin15 05-08-2018 11:20 PM

1) URL:
[B][url]https://www.freeinquiry.gr/single-post.php?id=4192[/url][/B]

- Constantine IX Monomachos (11th century). Alexios Komninos (12th century). Theodore II Laskaris (13th century)... All of them wear non-Greek attire and are called [B]kings of the Romans[/B]. This is where the name “Romios” (Roman) is derived from. It means a subject of the Eastern Roman Empire.

- The inhabitants of Modern Greece had called themselves “Romios” (“Romioi”-plural) for many centuries. In other words, [B]they considered themselves Romans[/B] and not Greeks. The word “Greek” began to be used ─in parallel with the word "Romios"─ in the last two centuries when the notion of nationalism was born in the Balkan Peninsula. It served as a description of the Christian - contemporary inhabitants of Greece.

- The Byzantine Empire, that modern Greeks wish to consider as “Hellenic” (a continuation of the ancient Greek world), also [B]referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire. It was the continuation of the Roman Empire in the East and that lasted up until Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. In reality, Byzantium was a multi-ethnic hard core orthodox Christian territory ruled by the Church, the Emperor and his visible or invisible court members. None of the Byzantine emperors was Greek in origin.[/B] Sciences, philosophy and democratic ideals were not only forbidden but also condemned. In 529 C.E, emperor Justinian closed Platoʼs famous Academy of Athens. The Byzantine era can be characterized by stagnation, political intrigues, treachery, conspiracies, corruption and great luxury.

- [B]The majority of modern Greeks today traces its origin from the [U]mixture of Albanians, Wallachians, Northern Africans and Anatolians who had infested the land of Greece back then along with Slavs and some Francs and Venetians. Unfortunately even today, most modern Greeks are oblivious to their true historic and genetic origin[/U].[/B] They think that they are the offsprings of ancient Greeks who suddenly saw the “light” and became Christians. Quite the opposite is true; they were Christians who were made to believe that their ancestors were the ancient Greeks. (Yiannis Lazaris: “The unknown 1821 - The apostasy of Romioi”, ed. “Dromon”, Athens, 2016). [B][U]The same applies of course for almost every country. There is no racial purity anywhere.[/U][/B]

2) [B]Slavs/Bulgarians, Vlachs and Albanians in Thessaly[/B] - [U]from chrysobull dated 1336[/U]. ([I]Some[/I] would have us believe that this was [U]not[/U] the case elsewhere throughout Thessaly, but applied only to a tiny area -- and yes, these three different ethnicities packed themselves into and crammed one small area only.)

The following comes from a Bulgarian book and point of view. The relevant pages are below. It is in Bulgarian, I can translate but will need time of course. The title page is given below as well. I have highlighted the most interesting parts.

[url=https://imgur.com/LceA8k2][img]http://i.imgur.com/LceA8k2.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/ySsJzwo][img]http://i.imgur.com/ySsJzwo.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/E8JjZFi][img]http://i.imgur.com/E8JjZFi.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/1JPDOSa][img]http://i.imgur.com/1JPDOSa.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/3bNRwHe][img]http://i.imgur.com/3bNRwHe.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/ijyKt2O][img]http://i.imgur.com/ijyKt2O.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/Um89ekf][img]http://i.imgur.com/Um89ekf.png[/img][/url]

3)
[url=https://imgur.com/utmYtno][img]http://i.imgur.com/utmYtno.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/xyk7jly][img]http://i.imgur.com/xyk7jly.png[/img][/url]


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