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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

Carlin15 02-04-2018 09:22 AM

Americans knew in 1897 that modern Greeks were not related to ancient Greeks.
[url=https://imgur.com/UG5SUpr][img]http://i.imgur.com/UG5SUpr.png[/img][/url]

Carlin15 02-04-2018 10:57 AM

After the establishment of the Greek state, [B]many inhabitants from Bitola settled in Argolida[/B], where they created the [B]village of Laloukas[/B].

URLs:
[url]https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CF%80%CE%AF%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%B1[/url]
[url]https://argolikivivliothiki.gr/category/%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%AD%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%82/[/url]

Carlin15 02-05-2018 01:38 AM

"The modern Greeks are not, in reality, the direct descendants of the ancients; numerous wars, invasions and migrations have changed their ethnology entirely."

- Journal of the American Medical Association in 1912.

tchaiku 02-07-2018 09:45 AM

Since the Chronicle of Ioannina does not mention any influx of Albanians after Serbian Kral Stefan Dugan's death, this immigration peaked between 1341 and 1355, that is, during the conquests of the latter. But even if the Serbs had employed Albanian mercenaries giving them titles, properties and privileges, Albanian migration had commenced half a century before, and some Albanians were already in Epirus before the Serbian conquest, while the conquerors probably installed there other Albanian vassals. incorporated into their army after the conquest of Albania. The proportion of each category is unfortunately impossible to determine. [B]Consequently, the Albanian migrations are not the consequence of the Serbian conquests: both phenomena, of course linked between them, are consequences of Greek weakness, in the political, military and demographic fields, a weakness that interior reasons, mostly the second Byzantine civil war of 1341-1347 and the Black Death, can largely explain. [/B]After the death of Kral Dugan in 1355, Nicephorc II, son of the last Despot of Epirus, took power in Thessaly and Epirus, and fought against the Albanians, trying to expel them from Epirusn. But he was defeated and killed by them in 1359 at the battle of Acheloos". Symeon, heir of Kral Dugan, seized back Thessaly and Epirus. But governing Thessaly was a hard enough task for him, and, as the Chronicle of Ioannina says, he left Epirus to the Albanians. [B]In the early 1360s, Epirus indeed was divided between Albanian clans: the clan of Peter Iiosha held Arta, the clan of Muriki Boua Spata" held Etoloacarnania, with Angelokastron as capital, and their leaders held the Byzantine titles of Despots from Symeon". Only the city of Ioannina WAS still governed by Greeks". In the north and west of this city, the clans of the Malakasaioi and of the Mazarakaioi held a territory which cannot be precisely defined''. Then, the clan of the Zenebisaioi held the north-west of Ioannina, including Dryinopolis, Bela and Vagenctia[/B]". Ioannina was the only city that did not fall under Albanian domination. This resistance by Ioannina must be placed in the specific context of this city, which was, as previously stated, the centre of the Byzantine imperial ideology. It is therefore logical that the city should make every effort to evade the clutches of the, allegedly barbarous, Albanian population. With the specific aim of resistance, they successively offered power to three foreign Despots, Thomas Preljubovie. (1367-1384), Esau Bondelmonti (1385-1411) and Carlo Tocco (1411-1429), who all used the Ottoman alliance to defend the city. The first despot adopted a really harsh attitude toward the Albanians. who attacked the city almost every year. He wanted to be called "A/Pavtrorrovec", that is "the Albanian-slayer", and tortured his Albanian prisoners in order to terrorize his enemies". Then, Esaii Buondelrnonti, even though twice defeated by the Albanians" generally managed to avoid war with them, even making an alliance in 1410 with them against his own nephew. Carlo Tocco, the Italian Count of Cephalonia". Finally, the latter brought about the end of the rule of the Albanian clan leaders in Epirus.

[url]http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf[/url] PAGE 12

Carlin15 02-07-2018 06:10 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;171814]Since the Chronicle of Ioannina does not mention any influx of Albanians after Serbian Kral Stefan Dugan's death, this immigration peaked between 1341 and 1355, that is, during the conquests of the latter. But even if the Serbs had employed Albanian mercenaries giving them titles, properties and privileges, Albanian migration had commenced half a century before, and some Albanians were already in Epirus before the Serbian conquest, while the conquerors probably installed there other Albanian vassals. incorporated into their army after the conquest of Albania. The proportion of each category is unfortunately impossible to determine. [B]Consequently, the Albanian migrations are not the consequence of the Serbian conquests: both phenomena, of course linked between them, are consequences of Greek weakness, in the political, military and demographic fields, a weakness that interior reasons, mostly the second Byzantine civil war of 1341-1347 and the Black Death, can largely explain. [/B]After the death of Kral Dugan in 1355, Nicephorc II, son of the last Despot of Epirus, took power in Thessaly and Epirus, and fought against the Albanians, trying to expel them from Epirusn. But he was defeated and killed by them in 1359 at the battle of Acheloos". Symeon, heir of Kral Dugan, seized back Thessaly and Epirus. But governing Thessaly was a hard enough task for him, and, as the Chronicle of Ioannina says, he left Epirus to the Albanians. [B]In the early 1360s, Epirus indeed was divided between Albanian clans: the clan of Peter Iiosha held Arta, the clan of Muriki Boua Spata" held Etoloacarnania, with Angelokastron as capital, and their leaders held the Byzantine titles of Despots from Symeon". Only the city of Ioannina WAS still governed by Greeks". In the north and west of this city, the clans of the Malakasaioi and of the Mazarakaioi held a territory which cannot be precisely defined''. Then, the clan of the Zenebisaioi held the north-west of Ioannina, including Dryinopolis, Bela and Vagenctia[/B]". Ioannina was the only city that did not fall under Albanian domination. This resistance by Ioannina must be placed in the specific context of this city, which was, as previously stated, the centre of the Byzantine imperial ideology. It is therefore logical that the city should make every effort to evade the clutches of the, allegedly barbarous, Albanian population. With the specific aim of resistance, they successively offered power to three foreign Despots, Thomas Preljubovie. (1367-1384), Esau Bondelmonti (1385-1411) and Carlo Tocco (1411-1429), who all used the Ottoman alliance to defend the city. The first despot adopted a really harsh attitude toward the Albanians. who attacked the city almost every year. He wanted to be called "A/Pavtrorrovec", that is "the Albanian-slayer", and tortured his Albanian prisoners in order to terrorize his enemies". Then, Esaii Buondelrnonti, even though twice defeated by the Albanians" generally managed to avoid war with them, even making an alliance in 1410 with them against his own nephew. Carlo Tocco, the Italian Count of Cephalonia". Finally, the latter brought about the end of the rule of the Albanian clan leaders in Epirus.

[url]http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf[/url] PAGE 12[/QUOTE]

1) [I][B]Only the city of Ioannina WAS still governed by Greeks[/B][/I]

Greeks = [U]Armani - Romans (Byzantines)[/U]

Sir Arthur J. Evans:
[COLOR="Blue"]"The truth is that a large number of those described as [B]Greeks are really Roumans[/B]. Till within recent years Hellenism found a fertile field for propaganda among the representatives of the gifted Romance speaking race of the Pindus region. Today [B]Janina[/B] has quite forgotten its [B]Rouman origin[/B], and has become a center of Hellenism."[/COLOR]

2) [I][B](Re)Creating a National Identity in 19th Century Greece: National Identity, Education, and European Perceptions of Greece[/B][/I], Ted Zervas

URL:
[url]http://www.academia.edu/2084653/_Re_Creating_a_National_Identity_in_19th_Century_Greece_National_Identity_Education_and_European_Perceptions_of_Greece[/url]

tchaiku 02-10-2018 03:00 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;171819]1) [I][B]Only the city of Ioannina WAS still governed by Greeks[/B][/I]

Greeks = [U]Armani - Romans (Byzantines)[/U]

Sir Arthur J. Evans:
[COLOR="Blue"]"The truth is that a large number of those described as [B]Greeks are really Roumans[/B]. Till within recent years Hellenism found a fertile field for propaganda among the representatives of the gifted Romance speaking race of the Pindus region. Today [B]Janina[/B] has quite forgotten its [B]Rouman origin[/B], and has become a center of Hellenism."[/COLOR]

2) [I][B](Re)Creating a National Identity in 19th Century Greece: National Identity, Education, and European Perceptions of Greece[/B][/I], Ted Zervas

URL:
[url]http://www.academia.edu/2084653/_Re_Creating_a_National_Identity_in_19th_Century_Greece_National_Identity_Education_and_European_Perceptions_of_Greece[/url][/QUOTE]
The Greeks of Janina in 15th century are not related with the later Vlach inhabitants. The Vlachs back then were considered barbarians and probably part of the Albanians. (many Byzantine writers mixed them as one)

If Vlachs formed the absolute majority and were the elite of the empire, it would've have extremely easy to find out because it was one of the greatest empires in the Middle Ages.

Coleman 02-11-2018 02:36 PM

is Greece's population increasing or decreasing?

Carlin15 02-11-2018 11:25 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;171880]The Greeks of Janina in 15th century are not related with the later Vlach inhabitants. The Vlachs back then were considered barbarians and probably part of the Albanians. (many Byzantine writers mixed them as one)

If Vlachs formed the absolute majority and were the elite of the empire, it would've have extremely easy to find out because it was one of the greatest empires in the Middle Ages.[/QUOTE]

You may be right ........

[COLOR="Blue"]In 1368 ([I][B]14th century[/B][/I]), the plague devastated Ioannina. According to the chronicle of Ioannina, it left thousands dead and many [I]Greek[/I] [U]widows[/U], which the Serbian despot [U]Thomas Preliubovic forced to [B]marry Serbian soldiers[/B][/U].[/COLOR]

(Ioannina was devastated more than once by the plague. Outbreaks occurred in Arta as well. Just in 1816, half the population of Arta died from plague.)

It seems that the [I]Greeks[/I] of Janina/Ioannina - [I]in 15th century[/I] - had some Serbian ancestry.

When I have time, I will mention some additional historical facts as well as Discrepancies. Here is a source from 1903:
[COLOR="Blue"]
"[B][U]Most of the merchants and leading persons at [B]Janina[/B] and Metsovo are [B]Vlachs[/B][/U].[/B] [B]These Vlachs of Epirus would esteem it an [U]offence[/U] to be considered of a comrade race with the Roumans[/B]."[/COLOR]

Papers by Command - Volume 87 - Page 104 (Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons - 1903)

Carlin15 02-14-2018 03:22 AM

Let's continue with Ioannina - let's challenge some preconceived notions/assumptions and illustrate an obvious [I]discrepancy[/I], which can be quite easily reconciled by demonstrating that [I](bilingual) Armani/Vlachs =Greeks[/I].

I will start with a couple of quotes and then provide a quick overview/analysis. While reading this, please keep in mind the two well-known quotes which we have already seen, that is, how [B][I]"Janina has quite forgotten its Rouman origin"[/I][/B] (by Evans) and other one [B][I]"Most of the merchants and leading persons at Janina and Metsovo are Vlachs"[/I][/B] (Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons - 1903).

Once again, note that I am providing here merely [U]two additional quotes[/U].

1) On page 68 of the book "The Life of Ali Pasha, of Tepeleni, Vizier of Epirus, Surnamed Aslan, Or the ..." By Richard Alfred Davenport (year [U]1837[/U]), we read the following about Ioannina:

[COLOR="Blue"]"Estimates of the population vary from thirty-five to fifty thousand persons. Forty thousand is, perhaps, about the real number. It forms a heterogeneous mass of [B]Greeks[/B], Turks, Albanians, Franks, Jews, Arabs, Moors, and Negroes; among whom the [B]Greeks are the most numerous[/B], respectable, and [B][U]long established[/U][/B], [B]many of the families having been settled at Ioannina [U]for centuries[/U][/B]."[/COLOR]

URL is:
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=R3k6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA67&dq=ioannina+plague+devastated+greeks+established&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2l_yu7qTZAhXnzVkKHTZ2CNQQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=ioannina%20plague%20devastated%20greeks%20established&f=false[/url]

2) The following is from A. Koukoudis, "The Vlachs of Aspropotamos: The conditions and the agents of development". It is important to note that he is a researcher (well respected in Greece), who in my opinion, has shown a tendency to minimize the number (and presence) of Vlachs in different regions of Greece. In many cases, I'd say he completely [I]excised[/I] the Vlachs from the history of many places. Nevertheless, the URL is [url]http://www.vlachs.gr/en/the-vlachs-metropolis-and-diaspora/the-conditions-of-development[/url], and the quote follows:

[COLOR="Blue"]"A typical case is [B]Ioannina[/B], where [B]Vlach traders and craftsmen[/B] mainly from Vlahodzoumerko (Kalarites and Syrrako) and Hora Metsovou [B][U]settled and became very active[/U] in economic, corporate, and communal affairs[/B]. The same applies to the Lambros, Tourtouris, Sgouros, and Damiris families from Kalarites, who apparently [B][U]supplanted[/U] older Ioanniot craftsmen in the Ioannina market in the time of Ali Pasha[/B]. [B]There were a [U]considerable number of Vlachs[/U][/B] in the echelons of Ali’s crowded and much talked-about court, from the humble Metsovite porters who bore his litter on their shoulders to secretaries like Hristodoulos Hadzipetros from Nera´dohori in Aspropotamos (later King Otto’s aide-de-camp), [B]the inspector of the Ioannina market Anastassios Samariniotis[/B], privy councellors like the wealthy merchant Yeoryios Tourtouris from Kalarites, and European-trained doctors like Ioannis Kolettis from Syrrako (later Prime Minister of Greece) and Yeoryios Tsapraslis from Kalarites (who wrote one of the first grammars of the Vlach language). [B]Vlachs from Kalarites, Syrrako, and Metsovo [U]settled en masse[/U] in Ioannina and played an active part in revitalising that ruined town after the Greek War of Independence[/B]."[/COLOR]

Summary (& discrepancies):

- Davenport: Greeks are the most numerous population of Ioannina in the early-mid 19th century; long established, many of the families having been settled at Ioannina for centuries. [U]No mention of [I]"Vlachs"[/I].[/U] Well and good.

- Koukoudis:
--> "Vlach" traders and craftsmen were very active and prominent in economic, corporate, and communal affairs.
--> There were a [B][U]considerable number of Vlachs[/U][/B] in the echelons of Ali’s crowded and much talked-about court.
--> The inspector of the Ioannina market was Anastassios Samariniotis.
--> Vlachs from Kalarites, Syrrako, and Metsovo [B][U]settled en masse[/U][/B] in Ioannina.

Analysis:

As we can see, Davenport noted a heterogeneous mass of different ethnicities in Ioannina with Greeks being the most numerous - while the "Vlachs" are invisible; [U]no mention at all whatsoever[/U]. We have an obvious [B][U]discrepancy[/U][/B], because from the researcher Koukoudis we see that "Vlachs" were quite numerous in Ioannina, settled en masse there, played an active and prominent role in all sorts of city affairs, and - as an example - A. Samariniotis was the inspector of the Ioannina market. A safe guess and assumption would be that the "Vlachs" were (at least) more numerous than say Franks, Jews, Arabs, Moors, or Negroes (?).

Furthermore, these "Vlachs" were not [I]Albanians[/I]. It would be quite fair to say and conclude that the "Vlachs" knew Greek (were bilingual), and were "part" of the local Greek community. [U]They considered themselves as Greeks[/U] - as we saw from the quote where it is explicitly stated that [I][B]many distinguished Greeks are of Vlach extraction[/B][/I], how [I][B]most of the merchants and leading persons at Janina and Metsovo are Vlachs[/B][/I], or that the [B][I]Vlachs of Epirus would esteem it an offence to be considered of a comrade race with the Roumans[/I][/B].

It is very easy to see then that Davenport's Ioannina Greeks were, at the very minimum = [U][B]Vlachs and[/B] Greeks[/U]. What we can also conclude is the following: Davenport did not care, bother, or knew to distinguish [I]Vlachs[/I] from [I]Greeks[/I]. Additionally, he was then unable to say with precision which families were long established, or which of the families having been settled at Ioannina for centuries. (The important point though is that there is a connection going back centuries.)

What completely tipped the scales here so to speak, in allowing us to easily conclude that Greeks are really Vlachophones are testimonies from Sir Arthur J. Evans and [I]Great Britain Parliament House of Commons[/I]. In conclusion, Davenport's Ioannina Greeks were then "Vlachs"/bilingual Vlachophones[I] who were the most numerous, respectable, and long established, many of the families having been settled at Ioannina for centuries[/I].

Amphipolis 02-14-2018 04:55 PM

From the paper of post#654, how little things change in 700 years.

The author of the Chronicle of the Tocco, probably a Greek from Ioannina, also emphasizes this cultural gap:

They thought that in Ioannina there were Albanians
Pig-keepers of their kind, and that they would submit to them;
But there were Roman archons and courageous soldiers.

Actually the Chronicle of the Tocco multiplies the contemptuous comments about Albanian customs and Albanians generally, frequently recounting their ignorance (underlined by words like ἀμάθητοι, “the ones who did not learn”, ἀπαιδευσία, “lack of education”, ἀγνωσία, “lack of knowledge”, χονδρότητα, “roughness”, παχύτητα, “coarseness”) and their vulgar language and lack of morality (underlined by words as λείξευροι, λείξουροι, “greedy”, σκληροί, “cruel”, κακόγνωμοι, “bad-tempered”, ἐπίορκοι, “perjurers”, κλέπται, “thieves”), all of which characteristics were supposedly the consequence of their “Albanian nature”.

The same source offers more positive descriptions on some Albanians, or at least does not use such pejorative terms. This is the case of course when they are allied to Carlo Tocco, but also, for example, of Gjin Boua Spata, despot of Arta, who often made war against Ioannina and against Carlo Tocco. These descriptions however do not gainsay the fact that, for the most part, the Chronicle proclaims an inveterate hostility between the two populations.

The Chronicle of Ioannina although less aggressive, recounts the δυστροπία [peevishness] and the κακογνωμία [bad-temperedness] of the Albanians.


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