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Dejan 11-28-2016 04:23 PM

I'm under the impression that the word lerini means medallions. Can anyone confirm?

Amphipolis 11-28-2016 05:24 PM

[QUOTE=vicsinad;166165]That's not quite accurate. Before the Turks came, it was generally referred to as Khlerin, as that's how it was founded and settled. During the Ottoman Empire, both Lerin and Florina were used interchangeably, and Florina became more predominate as Greek propaganda spread north.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Dejan;166167]I'm under the impression that the word lerini means medallions. Can anyone confirm?[/QUOTE]

No, it wasn't Khlerin but Chlerinon and no it was not interchangeable during Ottoman Empire (as far as I've searched) and (in this case) there was no Turkish version of the Greek name (just Florina). So, Greece didn't have to change the name of the city.

Medallion? No, the main info and theories about the name can be found here:

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina#Name"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina#Name[/URL]

vicsinad 11-28-2016 07:16 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;166168]No, it wasn't Khlerin but Chlerinon and no it was not interchangeable during Ottoman Empire (as far as I've searched) and (in this case) there was no Turkish version of the Greek name (just Florina). So, Greece didn't have to change the name of the city.


[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina#Name"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina#Name[/URL][/QUOTE]

You cite Wikipedia as if it were a bible. Firstly, Kh- and Ch- are the same sound. Secondly, Lerin is in the Ch-lerin-on you wrote. The Macedonian version drops the ch- and -on (not all, I've heard some Macedonians still refer to it as Chlerin). The modern Greek version changes the ch- sound to a f- as well as changes the "e" to an "o".

Third, there are plenty of sources showing both a) Khlerin and b) that both Lerin and Florina were used interchangeably. I'll use one source from 1879, called the Journal of the Anthropological Institute Volume 8, that satisfies both (stating that the original was Khlerin and that at that time (1879) it was referred to as both Lerin and Florina).

Page 73:

[URL="https://books.google.com/books?id=TqIEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=khlerin+macedonia&source=bl&ots=lgH-9kP2oH&sig=y5RBFjLcBXux_FmyVvsypZflLWc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLmtfU1czQAhVK1WMKHbFdDT0Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=khlerin%20macedonia&f=false"]https://books.google.com/books?id=TqIEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=khlerin+macedonia&source=bl&ots=lgH-9kP2oH&sig=y5RBFjLcBXux_FmyVvsypZflLWc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLmtfU1czQAhVK1WMKHbFdDT0Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=khlerin%20macedonia&f=false[/URL]

Then again, this is not an unsourced Wikipedia snippet, so you will probably refute its relevance or authority.

Dejan 11-29-2016 04:09 AM

The greeks would have simply used the names left behind by the turks e.g. Manastir for Bitola. They had no history in the area prior

Amphipolis 11-29-2016 10:14 AM

Wikipedia is not the Bible. That’s why I mentioned a mistake in it, a couple of posts before. The district of Florina was under the Bulgarian Empire in the 1200s, but Florina did not exist yet, and its predecessor (the fortress of Chlerinon) first appears in 1300s under the Serbian Empire a little before taken by the Turks. I gave the link because it aggregates all the relevant info and theories about the name, etymology and history of the city.

I couldn’t confirm what you say: a) the name Chlerin/Khlerin, b) the name Lerin as an official (alternate) Ottoman name. I don’t think a city can have two official names.

For most cities of Macedonia, the Turks had a slight Turkish version of the Greek or Slavic name [Kastoria- Kesriye, Kozani- Kozana, Katerini- Katerin, Grevena- Grebene, Vodena-Vodina, Thessaloniki-Selanik, Veria- Karaferye, Polygyros-Poly(e)ros, Serres- Serez], but not in in Florina, Kilkis, Drama or Kavala where the Turkish names were identical.



===

vicsinad 11-29-2016 03:16 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;166171]

I couldn’t confirm what you say: a) the name Chlerin/Khlerin, b) the name Lerin as an official (alternate) Ottoman name. I don’t think a city can have two official names.


===[/QUOTE]

You can't confirm, but yet you've only cited Wiki sources and don't provide any legitimate sources to back your claims. Further, I'm not asking you to accept what I say, but rather what the link from a book written in 1879 said.

Official names were not what they were back then as what they are today. Plus, Florina wasn't even the Greek name for Lerin...Florina is Latin for "blooming flower."

Moreover, even your trusted source of Wikipedia says: "and in early Ottoman documents the forms [B]Chlerina and Florina are both used[/B] with the latter becoming standard after the 17th century."

Three things to note, which I already mentioned: 1) both names were used interchangeably; 2) it wasn't until later in Ottoman rule that Florina became more predominant in the administration (as the Greek church and propaganda became more influential); and 3) the word Florina became standard, which is significant, but does not mean official.

Dejan 11-29-2016 03:25 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;166171]
For most cities of Macedonia, the Turks had a slight Turkish version of the Greek or Slavic name[/QUOTE]

Don't you mean Macedonian name?

How is this not ban worthy?

Amphipolis 11-30-2016 01:07 PM

The sources are not difficult to be found (I will add some later, or at least more info and details about them).

The first reference is actually in the 4-Volume History written by Emperor (and non-stop author) John VI Kantakouzenos and can be seen here at 57-8 or 803:

Αὐτίκα δέ τις προσελθὼν Ἄρμπενος ὠνομασμένος, ἐκ [B]Χλερηνοῦ [/B] πρότερον Ῥωμαίοις ὑπηκόου πόλεως, πατρῴαν τε ὡμολόγει εὔνοιαν τῷ βασιλεῖ,

[URL="http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/cantacuzene/histoire15.htm"]http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/cantacuzene/histoire15.htm[/URL]

These are some of the oldest maps from 1500s & 1600s mentioning Florina

[URL="https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/enlarge/48078"]https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/enlarge/48078[/URL]

[URL="https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/enlarge/31450sm"]https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/enlarge/31450sm[/URL]

==

vicsinad 11-30-2016 02:20 PM

These maps don't support your original argument, which if you remember, was:

1) Florina was never renamed from Lerin to Florina
and
2) Florina was always the official name of Lerin under the Ottoman Empire.

These Latin based maps just show that the Latin name for Lerin was Florina.

Now it seems like you're trying to prove that certain people had called Lerin "Florina" throughout several centuries. No one's disagreeing with that.

Amphipolis 12-01-2016 12:33 AM

More info:

By 1300s Islamized Slavophones of Illyria call the city Chlerina or Flourida (exact source is not given)

Castle of Florina is mentioned in 1300s in a “Code of Paris” (exact source is not given)

I often find the following phrase “Kantakouzenos writes it as Chlerinon or Flerinon”. Actually as we saw it is only Chlerinon and since the name is only mentioned once in genitive case (Chlerinou) I don’t know if it is masculine (Chlerinos) or neuter (Chlerinon). Chlerina and Florina are feminine names.

The Turkish sources are about 35-40 different decrees (firmans) of local rulers calling the city Florina (or rarely Filorina) and writing the name in Greek or Arab (Old-Turkish) script. These documents have been gathered and published by IMHA (Institute for Balkan Studies).

[QUOTE=vicsinad;166176]These maps don't support your original argument, which if you remember, was:

1) Florina was never renamed from Lerin to Florina
and
2) Florina was always the official name of Lerin under the Ottoman Empire. [/QUOTE]

Yes, both (1) and (2) are correct.


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