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tchaiku 05-10-2017 12:42 PM

804 (year) Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.[105]

Carlin 05-11-2017 10:37 PM

[COLOR="Blue"][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][SIZE="3"]Mention of the presence of [U][B]non-Greek[/B] [B]speakers[/B][/U] in Athens, comes from the year [B]1180[/B], from an archbishop of Athens Michael Choniates (or Acominatus) who indicates that "[B]the Athenians who came from Attica and the villages [U]speak a barbarian language[/U][/B]."[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR]

I have found the above in the URL provided below, where M. Acominatus is called [I]Mihal Akominato[/I]. I suspect it is Michael Choniates, who was indeed appointed archbishop of Athens around 1175 and maintained his post until 1204. I have never seen this quotation so far, in original form. Apparently, he was a versatile writer, and composed homilies, speeches and poems, which, with his correspondence, throw considerable light upon the miserable condition of Attica and Athens at the time. Around 1217 he moved to the monastery of [B]Vodonitsa[/B] near the Thermopylae, where he died. See wikipedia link for full details.

URL [I]The history of Albanians in Greece[/I]
[url]https://www.scribd.com/document/105354466/The-history-of-Albanians-in-Greece[/url]

Michael Choniates (or Acominatus) (Greek: Μιχαήλ Χωνιάτης or Ἀκομινάτος) (c. 1140 – 1220)
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Choniates[/url]

tchaiku 05-12-2017 09:02 AM

Good find Carlin.

Leaving aside the subject of dating the Albanian presence in Greece, I will refer to information relating to the size of Albanian population in Greece:
-The Arvanites are approximated to have been half of the Greek population beforethe exchange of Asia Minor Greeks in 1922, according to estimates by several amateur historians… (Magliveras, Simeon, Spyros, the ontology of difference: Nationalism, localism and ethnicity in a Greek Village, Durham University, 2009, p.22)

-According to some estimates, the Christian Albanian population in Greece reached up to 45% by the 15th century, and they were then supplemented by an additional wave of Muslim Albanians in the 18th century (Trudgill). (1975: 6)

-An Albanian historian, Dhimiter Grillo, referring to Byzantine chronicler George Sphrantzes, indicates that during the middle of XV century, Albanians in Peloponnesus numbered 290000 and could provide 30000 fighters.(Arvanitet dhe Shqiptaret ne Luften Clirimtare te Popullit Grek, 1985)

-N. L. G. Hammond, a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view, said thatby the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of thepeople of the Peloponnese were Albanian speaker. (N.L.G. Hammond, Greece Old and New, p. 44).

-George Finlay indicated that Peloponnesus still had a majority Albanian population during mid-nineteenth century. (George Findlay, A History of Greece: The Greek Revolution, pt.1, p. 29)

In 1855, Edmond About estimated that 25% of Greece was populated by Albanians.(Edmond About, Greece and Greeks of present day, MDCCCLY, p. 49)

-A more conservative number comes from J. G. Hahn who in in 1854 estimated that“ofa total of one million inhabitants of Greece, about 173,000 were Albanians”. (Vasiliiev, A. A., History of the Byzantine Empire, 1964, Vol. 2, p.615)

-Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.

tchaiku 05-13-2017 08:13 AM

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/qmni8P1.jpg[/IMG]

Carlin 05-13-2017 09:35 AM

We are told that Monemvasia was a town established by the Hellenes fleeing before the Slavs who invaded the Peloponnese and Greece. We are further told (and asked to believe) that this same town resisted many invaders over the course of history, and more importantly, that the Hellenic element lived on in this small town - not mixing with anyone else - and that the predominant ethnic group in this town were the Hellenes themselves. At times, I have heard various arguments how there were no other ethnic groups present in the town.

It appears, though, that there were many Albanians residing in the town itself (from the 15th century, if not earlier). The Albanians of Morea caused much carnage and destruction, and one of the towns they raided was apparently Monemvasia. As to the Fortress, the city of Monemvasia, Andre Castellan described the upper city in 1797 as a large heap of ruins.

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/MonemvasiaTitle_zps5lniyw9m.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/MonemvasiaTitle_zps5lniyw9m.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Monemvasia54Alb_zps9j2rtd4r.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Monemvasia54Alb_zps9j2rtd4r.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Monemvasia55Alb_zps5ree6dow.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Monemvasia55Alb_zps5ree6dow.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Monemvasia92Alb_zpsqx76avza.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Monemvasia92Alb_zpsqx76avza.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Monemvasia93Alb_zpsbzfhntoj.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Monemvasia93Alb_zpsbzfhntoj.png[/IMG][/URL]

Carlin 05-13-2017 05:17 PM

For many centuries, the mountain range Parnon used to be called [B][U]Malevo[/U][/B] by the locals. Does this imply that the [I]Tzakonians[/I] too called their own mountain range by this "foreign"/non-Greek term?

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/BuryTitle_zpslmxrwg9u.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/BuryTitle_zpslmxrwg9u.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/2017-05-13_18-05-35_zpshvii4gif.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/2017-05-13_18-05-35_zpshvii4gif.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Malevo_zps5isrt1vd.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Malevo_zps5isrt1vd.png[/IMG][/URL]

Carlin 05-13-2017 11:27 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;168696][URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Page71Caratzas_zpsdz0xpve7.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Page71Caratzas_zpsdz0xpve7.png[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]

I am returning to this as I did not have time to provide a translation earlier.

It says that are many proverbs in which, [U]instead[/U] of saint [B]tsakonas[/B], we meet or encounter a saint (or notable) [B]vlach[/B]:
[I]"A Tzaconian, even if he becomes a saint, will only have a crappy glory (sic)."[/I]

On page 69 of the same book by Caratzas we read a poem where a 'place name', [I]Vlachokonaka[/I] is [B][U]accompanied[/U][/B] by [I]Tsakonaka[/I]:
[I]
"Under the Tsakonaka and Vlachokonaka,
Two priest's wives sat, two small nuns....... etc"[/I]

tchaiku 05-14-2017 02:05 PM

[I][B]''And yet some travellers declare that the bulk of population of the population of Modern Greece belong to the ancient stock! On contrary I should consider 200,000, or one-fifth of entire number, a very high estimate.''
[/B][/I]
Travels in Greece and Russia
By Bayard Taylor

Carlin 05-14-2017 08:25 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;168723]804 (year) Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.[105][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Blue"][B]Slav revolt in Tzakonia[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/TZAKTITLE_zpsxykmi9uo.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/TZAKTITLE_zpsxykmi9uo.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/TZAK334_zpsviu5is3r.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/TZAK334_zpsviu5is3r.png[/IMG][/URL]

(How many ethnic groups were living in tiny Tzakonia?? Were these [I]Slavs[/I] really Slavophones?)

Carlin 05-14-2017 08:36 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167693]Βλαχοχώρια της Εύβοιας, τόσο στην κεντρική και στη βόρεια Εύβοια, όσο και στην περιοχή Αλιβερίου-Κύμης, αποβλαχισμένα στις αρχές του 19ου αιώνα.

Vlach settlements in Euboea, both in the central and northern Euboea and in Kymi-Aliveri*, lost the (Vlach) language in the early 19th century.

* - Kymi-Aliveri
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kymi-Aliveri[/url][/QUOTE]

1) [I][COLOR="Blue"][B]Euboea is a 'mosaic' of inhabitants[/B][/COLOR][/I]
[url]https://www.medievalroutes.gr/en/digital-exhibits/franks-venetians-and-catalans-in-central-greece/[/url]

- In the cities of Euboea, and particularly Chalkis, the number of [B]inhabitants from the West[/B] increased, especially with [B]Venetians and Lombard traders[/B], as well as adventurers, who lived in the own settlements. The period was rocked by constant feuds and claims within the ruling class.

- The city of Negroponte, as Chalkis was then known, was [B]highly multicultural[/B], as were, most likely, Karystos and Oreon, where the local Orthodox population, [B]the Latins, Venetians, Lombards and Jews all co-existed.[/B]

2) David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
[I][COLOR="Blue"][B]"Boeotia, [U]with Euboea[/U], is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians..."[/B][/COLOR][/I]


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