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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

Carlin 06-03-2021 12:42 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;184800]The word khatun/hatun (lady, woman), a Turkic word most likely borrowed from an Iranian language, was mentioned well before the 12th century. It wasn't common in the Balkans before the Ottoman occupation and without having read the text in question (or knowing much about this Ioannes Trachaniotes), I'm not sure how it came to be that an Athonite monk would have used it in the year 1109.[/QUOTE]

That's a very interesting proposed connection/origin of the word. I'm not sure how the term "Katun" became associated with Vlachs.

Here is a random site, which defines "what" [I]was[/I] a Katun - but doesn't go into the origin of the term:
[url]https://dictionary.university/Katun[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 06-03-2021 11:53 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;184808]That's a very interesting proposed connection/origin of the word. I'm not sure how the term "Katun" became associated with Vlachs.

Here is a random site, which defines "what" [I]was[/I] a Katun - but doesn't go into the origin of the term:
[url]https://dictionary.university/Katun[/url][/QUOTE]
I mentioned khatun/hatun because of the reference to Vlach women in the screenshots you posted. If katun was meant as something else (like settlements) then it is probably a different word that coincidentally looks very similar. Page 623 of Fine's book doesn't go into the origin of the term either.

Carlin 06-18-2021 11:34 PM

[B]By the end of the 15th century, the influence of[/B] [B]the Italian language and culture (including in some ways the Roman Catholic church) assumed a [U]predominant role in the island[/U] (Corfu)[/B].

Until the second half of the 20th century the [I]Veneto da mar[/I] was spoken in Corfu, and the local Greek language assimilated a large number of Italian and Venetian words, many of which are still common today. Indeed, [B]even before the fall of the Byzantine Empire much of the population in Corfu spoke the[/B] [I][B]Veneto da mar[/B][/I] or the [B]Mediterranean Lingua Franca Sabir[/B] as a second, or first, language.

According to historian Ezio Gray, the small communities of Venetian-speaking people in Corfu were mostly assimilated after the island became part of Greece in 1864 and especially after [B]all Italian schools were closed in 1870[/B]. However, the Italian language maintained some importance, as can be seen by the fact that poets like Stefano Martzokis (Marzocchi was the surname of the father, an Italian from Emilia-Romagna) and Geranimos Markonos, the first from Corfů and the second from Cefalonia, wrote some of their poems in Italian during the second half of the 19th century.

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfiot_Italians[/url]

Carlin 06-18-2021 11:48 PM

In 1878, many Arvanitovlachs took part in the revolutionary movement against the Turks and after its failure, left for Corfu and Lefkada. In Corfu, most settled in Gatitsa. G. Weigand, in 1889, writes that the Arvanitovlachs of Corfu numbered about 2,000 families.

sydney 06-19-2021 02:48 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;184938][B]By the end of the 15th century, the influence of[/B] [B]the Italian language and culture (including in some ways the Roman Catholic church) assumed a [U]predominant role in the island[/U] (Corfu)[/B].

Until the second half of the 20th century the [I]Veneto da mar[/I] was spoken in Corfu, and the local Greek language assimilated a large number of Italian and Venetian words, many of which are still common today. Indeed, [B]even before the fall of the Byzantine Empire much of the population in Corfu spoke the[/B] [I][B]Veneto da mar[/B][/I] or the [B]Mediterranean Lingua Franca Sabir[/B] as a second, or first, language.

According to historian Ezio Gray, the small communities of Venetian-speaking people in Corfu were mostly assimilated after the island became part of Greece in 1864 and especially after [B]all Italian schools were closed in 1870[/B]. However, the Italian language maintained some importance, as can be seen by the fact that poets like Stefano Martzokis (Marzocchi was the surname of the father, an Italian from Emilia-Romagna) and Geranimos Markonos, the first from Corfů and the second from Cefalonia, wrote some of their poems in Italian during the second half of the 19th century.

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfiot_Italians[/url][/QUOTE]

Regarding the piece in bold about the Italian schools - the Greeks sure move swiftly! I often question though whether the assimilated peoples suffer from Stockholm syndrome and quite like the notion of being “descendants of the ancients”.

Carlin 07-04-2021 12:57 PM

URL:
[url]https://www.academia.edu/48876353/ARVANITES_THE_FOUNDERS_OF_MODERN_GREECE[/url]

Page 22: "Vangelis Liapis, a scholar and author of several books on Arvanites would say: One day at school, in history class, I was courageous and asked the teacher why the book does not say that those who brought freedom to Greece were Arvanites? The answer I got was two fierce slaps followed by silence. It was the second injury that was slowly starting to create a wound in my soul."

Page 238: "Giannis Lazaris writes about why they are called Greeks today: Greeks did not exist even as a name. And there were no Greeks during the Ottoman period, of course. The inhabitants of the area of Greece were citizens of the Ottoman Empire, Romiots, i.e., Christians where some of whom spoke Romeika (who are abusively called Greeks today) and many other Arvanites, Vlachs, Turks, etc."

YuriB 09-20-2021 06:26 AM

Hi all! I just ran into this article, which reminded me of this forum. You might know about it already but a quick search didn't show anything.

The article suggests a much stronger connection of Greeks with farmers in Anatolia (modern day Turkey), Caucasus and Iran. Less of a connection but still present from hunter gatherers from the north. Having lived outside Greece for many years now, I can also confirm that the people who seem to look most like Greeks are Iranians, Turks and Iraqis. Although, the connection I see might be more recent due to the population exchange. Or maybe it's just me seeing this 😊

BTW, hope you're all healthy given the COVID situation.. NZ, as you might know, is in lockdown..

URL:
[url]https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310[/url]

Title:
[B]Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans[/B]

Abstract:
[I]The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6,7,8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.[/I]

Risto the Great 09-20-2021 04:29 PM

Difficult to dispute the physical characteristics that link them.

Carlin 11-07-2021 09:25 PM

[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_II_of_Constantinople[/url]

Matthew II of Constantinople


Matthew II (Greek: Ματθαῖος Β΄), (? – 1603) was Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople three times, shortly in 1596, from 1598 to 1602 and for a few days in 1603.

[B]Member of the Vlach community, Matthew was born in the village Kleinovo (now part of Kalabaka), and he became Metropolitan of Ioannina[/B]. In early 1596 he was elected Ecumenical Patriarch, but the election was not recognized because the Holy Synod that elected him was not attended by all the members; thus, after twenty days Matthew was forced to resign and moved to Mount Athos.

Carlin 11-16-2021 04:11 PM

Some names from the Ottoman Thessaly (15th century), specifically in the area/region of Trikala. The time period is 1450s.


[U]Village Gardiki[/U]

The increased number of Slavic names is remarkable here.

[I][B]Nikolas and Dralas Stanisas[/B][/I]. The name "Stanisas / Stanisis" is the Slavic name Staniša (IE * steh2-> PSlav * stati> sta-n-). I do not think George R. R. Martin had that name in mind when he coined the name Stannis Baratheon on GoT.

[I][B]Nikolas Prodanis[/B][/I]. The surname is the Slavic name Prodan "sold" (cf. prodati "sell").

[I][B]Komanitsis Dobroslavos[/B][/I]. The name is reminiscent of the surname of the Romanian athlete Nadia Comaneci, while the surname is the well-known Slavic name Dobroslav (OCS dobrŭ > dobros).

[I][B]Rado's widow Rina[/B][/I]. The name "Rados" is just another form of "Rado" (Slavic Rado).

[I][B]Tanilas groom of Rados[/B][/I]. Behind the name "Tanilas" is probably hidden the Slavic name Danilo.

[I][B]Vlachos and Alexis Raikos[/B][/I], Other than the obvious "Vlachos", the Slavic name Rajko is a variant of Radko / Ratko, as the name Vlajko is a variant of Vladko / Vlatko.

[I][B]Manolis Pribos[/B][/I]. The surname "Pribos" is the Slavic diminutive Pribo of a compound Slavic names in Pribo- / Pribi– (cf. Pribina, Pribislav, Priboj / Pribojević).

[I][B]Aivanis Prodanis[/B][/I] = Ivan or Ivaniš + Prodan (ie. the well-known Croatian tennis player Goran Ivanišević)

[I][B]Theodoris Milos[/B][/I] = Slavic Milo or Miloš.

[I][B]Stanimeros Toklimis[/B][/I]. Slav. Stanimir.

[I][B]Giovancos Tokaris[/B][/I]. The Slavic name Jovanko is a form of Jovan "John" (cf. the female Jovana > Jοvanka).


[U]Village Mavreli/Maureli[/U]

[I][B]Tsoukaras Moumcelas[/B][/I]. It is probably the Slavic name Momčilo ("Momotzilas").

[I][B]Giovanis[/B][/I] = Jovan.

[I][B]Widow [of] Boza[/B][/I]. Behind the name "Boza" is probably the name Božo (a diminutive of name like Božidar).

[I][B]Gionis Zourkos[/B][/I]. Behind the name "Gionis" might be the name "Jon" (Jonoski is common surname in Macedonia). "Zourkos" = Zourka/Zhourka is a Vlach surname.


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