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Soldier of Macedon 07-22-2020 04:14 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;183525]This is answered here (also very extended, google translation, includes alternative views)

[URL="https://translate.google.gr/translate?hl=el&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Feranistis.net%2Fwordpress%2F2014%2F08%2F22%2F%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B6%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%82-%CF%80%2F"]https://translate.google.gr/translate?hl=el&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Feranistis.net%2Fwordpress%2F2014%2F08%2F22%2F%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%B6%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%82-%CF%80%2F[/URL][/QUOTE]
Actually, none of it is answered. There is not a single older source referenced in the text that refers to Kozani as Kosdiani, that mentions the Epirus Kosdiani or Paliokozdani. And he doesn't give a Greek etymology for Kozani either. Instead, he mentions two 'traditions' that the name of Kozani came from goats that were pasturing in a forested area or had wet beards (WTF x1). The word 'Koza' means goat in Macedonian, by the way. Another theory mentioned is that the name came from a supposed Turkish source "koz-ana", which is supposed to mean "mother of walnuts" (WTF x2). The writer on the website dismisses all of the above, because apparently, Kozani has always been inhabited by Greeks, so how on earth could it have a name that is understood in Slavic languages (WTF x3). That said, he isn't as dismissive of the Latin theory, which is the most ludicrous of them all. That one goes like this: the name of the city came from a guy called Cossa, because Augustus Caesar rewarded the Italians in his army places in Macedonia and the rest of the Balkans if they’d lost their lands in Italy. All of this, mind you, despite the fact that the guy on the website writes in the beginning that Kozani is not mentioned by any Greek or Roman writer in ancient times. But suddenly the name, which is Cossa's namesake, appeared in the late Middle Ages (WTF x4 + LOL). I see other place names mentioned, such as Vanitsa, Starista, Bossova, Ezova, Siatista and Staridola. Perhaps he has some fantastic theories for those also.

Amphipolis, when it comes to issues like this, you have tried to give the impression that you are diligent. In a number of cases, you are, but in these cases (Harvati and Kozani), you are providing me links with sub-standard rubbish that even you yourself wouldn't find acceptable. Surely you can be honest enough to admit that your Greek and Albanian co-nationals in those references are either talking through their arses or at least stretching the truth beyond reasonability? What is your opinion on the origin of the word Kozani?

Liberator of Makedonija 07-22-2020 05:08 AM

Kožani bares resemblance to the Macedonian word [I]koža[/I], meaning 'skin' or 'pelt', which would suggest a trade orientated etymology

Amphipolis 07-22-2020 06:50 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183526]Actually, none of it is answered. There is not a single older source referenced in the text that refers to Kozani as Kosdiani, that mentions the Epirus Kosdiani or Paliokozdani. And he doesn't give a Greek etymology for Kozani either. Instead, he mentions two 'traditions' that the name of Kozani came from goats that were pasturing in a forested area or had wet beards (WTF x1). The word 'Koza' means goat in Macedonian, by the way. Another theory mentioned is that the name came from a supposed Turkish source "koz-ana", which is supposed to mean "mother of walnuts" (WTF x2). The writer on the website dismisses all of the above, because apparently, Kozani has always been inhabited by Greeks, so how on earth could it have a name that is understood in Slavic languages (WTF x3). That said, he isn't as dismissive of the Latin theory, which is the most ludicrous of them all. That one goes like this: the name of the city came from a guy called Cossa, because Augustus Caesar rewarded the Italians in his army places in Macedonia and the rest of the Balkans if they’d lost their lands in Italy. All of this, mind you, despite the fact that the guy on the website writes in the beginning that Kozani is not mentioned by any Greek or Roman writer in ancient times. But suddenly the name, which is Cossa's namesake, appeared in the late Middle Ages (WTF x4 + LOL). I see other place names mentioned, such as Vanitsa, Starista, Bossova, Ezova, Siatista and Staridola. Perhaps he has some fantastic theories for those also.

Amphipolis, when it comes to issues like this, you have tried to give the impression that you are diligent. In a number of cases, you are, but in these cases (Harvati and Kozani), you are providing me links with sub-standard rubbish that even you yourself wouldn't find acceptable. Surely you can be honest enough to admit that your Greek and Albanian co-nationals in those references are either talking through their arses or at least stretching the truth beyond reasonability? What is your opinion on the origin of the word Kozani?[/QUOTE]

I'm quite familiar with Kozani and the theories about its name. I have worked (but not lived) there for a short period and I used to think that I partly (like 1/8th) come from Kozani as my great grant-father (post-1850s) had a second nickname-surname, Kozanitis (i.e. man from Kozani). I only recently learnt that I don’t, and that he was just doing business in Kozani, always travelling there and that’s why they got that surname.

The texts I linked are very well written and detailed, and although google translated you got them right. That is all, essays from late 1800s, early 1900s, Byzantine documents where the name has not appeared yet and chronologies that I find quite detailed.

If you suggest there’s no definite answer, well that’s usually the case with etymologies. If you ask which I tend to believe most, well it’s the Kosdiani one. I remind you that every name DOES have an etymology that God knows, but it’s not certain we can discover it with human means. Maybe, if a new document is found…



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Carlin15 07-22-2020 07:20 AM

The etymology of "Kozani" itself is most likely Slavonic. According to Max Vasmer, the Slavic form Kožani appears here as the [I]older one[/I].

In addition to this, Kożany is a village/toponym in Poland, while Kožany is also a village in the Prešov Region of north-east Slovakia. Not to be outdone, Кожаны is a village in the Krasnoyarsk Krai in Russia.

URLs:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozany[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%BEany[/url]
[url]https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8B_(%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%8F%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9)[/url]

[I]In terms of the prevailing opinion in Greece[/I], that [I]the name comes from the village of Epirus Kósdiani (the origin of settlers of Kozani in 1392)[/I] the following eyewitness testimony would seem to corroborate that opinion, as there were many Vlach-speakers living throughout Epirus in the Middle Ages (in some cases/books they are described as forming a majority in Epirus).

While visiting the town of Kozani in [B]1880[/B], [B]British diplomat and historian[/B] [B]Sir Ignatius Valentine Chirol[/B], noted that “In the 900 houses of this city there are scarcely twenty where around the family fireside any other language is spoken than [B]the old Latin-sounding Wallach[/B]. (Still) the prosperous townsfolk would be deeply hurt if any doubt were hinted as to the genuineness of their Hellenism”.

Karposh 07-22-2020 07:59 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;183526]...The word 'Koza' means goat in Macedonian, by the way...[/QUOTE] It makes sense then that the word Kozani resembles a clear Macedonian etymology which means place of the goat or goat-country. Similar to the name of the very Macedonian-sounding Epirote town of Metsovo which literally means place of the bear or bear-country. However, with regard to the town of Kozani, I think it depends on what the actual correct pronunciation for the town is. Ko-za-ni would suggest a link to the Macedonian word for goat - [B]koza[/B]. But, Ko-zha-ni would suggest, as LoM alluded to, a link to the Macedonian word for animal skin - [B]kozha[/B].

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;183527]Kožani bares resemblance to the Macedonian word [I]koža[/I], meaning 'skin' or 'pelt', which would suggest a trade orientated etymology[/QUOTE]

I too, have always shared this second view, that the name of the town stems from the Macedonian word for animal skins, or some past tanning/leather industry. Does anyone actually know if Kozani has ever had a history in the tanning industry?

Risto the Great 07-22-2020 08:41 AM

It most definitely has a tanning industry and the resident Greek on the forum has avoided that. The leathers end up in Kostur for tailoring. It's just stating the obvious.

Karposh 07-22-2020 09:09 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;183532]It most definitely has a tanning industry and the resident Greek on the forum has avoided that. The leathers end up in Kostur for tailoring. It's just stating the obvious.[/QUOTE]

You won't find that admission, of course, on Wikipedia. All possible etymological theories under the sun are perfectly acceptable but God-forbid anyone posit the most obvious etymology that would suggest a Macedonian connection or past and yet makes perfect sense in Macedonian.

Liberator of Makedonija 07-22-2020 09:16 AM

I think I do remember reading once that Kožani did indeed have a tanning industry during that golden age for the Ottoman Empire where every town in Macedonia seemed to have some specialised trade that was known as far as Vienna :lol:

Soldier of Macedon 07-22-2020 11:01 AM

[QUOTE=Karposh;183531]It makes sense then that the word Kozani resembles a clear Macedonian etymology which means place of the goat or goat-country. Similar to the name of the very Macedonian-sounding Epirote town of Metsovo which literally means place of the bear or bear-country. However, with regard to the town of Kozani, I think it depends on what the actual correct pronunciation for the town is. Ko-za-ni would suggest a link to the Macedonian word for goat - [B]koza[/B]. But, Ko-zha-ni would suggest, as LoM alluded to, a link to the Macedonian word for animal skin - [B]kozha[/B].[/QUOTE]
The reason why I mentioned Koza being obviously Macedonian is because the text in the link had theories suggesting the name came from a goat. Personally, I don't think it is named after a goat, rather, as I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, I think it is more likely to be from Kozha (skin), hence Kozhani (Кожани). The only reason why it is called Kozani these days is because there is no ZH (ж) sound in Greek. The exact same situation with Metsovo. Clearly, this place name was originally called Mechovo with the etymology you outlined above, but in Greek there is no CH sound so they replace it with TS. However, go to the English Wikipedia page on Metsovo and you see the below:
[QUOTE]The derivation of the name Metsovo—from the words Mitsous and Mesovounon or from the unattested Slav word *Mẹčovo, meaning bear-place—which has been proposed by academics and historians, is not confirmed by linguistic research. On the contrary, there appears to be an etymological relation between the Vlach Minʤu and the Greek Metsovo, the latter being a combination of the stem Mets and the Slavic-ending ovo.[/QUOTE]
Seriously, WTF is wrong with these people. They are so brainwashed, so fearful of the "Slav" monster that they cannot even concede the blatantly obvious Macedonian etymology of such places and instead go to great pains to come up with ridiculous alternatives. Even the Turks call it Miçova, pronounced MI[B]CH[/B]OVA, which is what Me[B]ch[/B]ovo would've sounded like to them before it was bastardised into Me[B]ts[/B]ovo. Like I mentioned before, Greeks and Bulgars have a free reign on Wikipedia to promote their rubbish with basically little interference, but Macedonians cannot promote their own history without some of those maggots editing every single page on a daily basis. The hypocrisy is stunning and beyond stupid and some naive people actually believe they're reading the truth when on Wikipedia.
[QUOTE="Carlin15"][I]In terms of the prevailing opinion in Greece, that the name comes from the village of Epirus Kósdiani (the origin of settlers of Kozani in 1392)[/I] the following eyewitness testimony would seem to corroborate that opinion, as there were many Vlach-speakers living throughout Epirus in the Middle Ages (in some cases/books they are described as forming a majority in Epirus). While visiting the town of Kozani in 1880, British diplomat and historian Sir Ignatius Valentine Chirol, noted that “In the 900 houses of this city there are scarcely twenty where around the family fireside any other language is spoken than the old Latin-sounding Wallach. (Still) the prosperous townsfolk would be deeply hurt if any doubt were hinted as to the genuineness of their Hellenism”.[/QUOTE]
The "Hellenism" of the Vlachs in Greece. Surreal. Anyway. If you're suggesting that a lot of Vlachs live in Kozani, I would agree. I have met people from there in the past and they have told me the same, even some of their surnames are a dead giveaway. However, I still don't see the connection between Kozani and this apparent Epirus Kosdiani. Have you found any older sources that refer to Kosdiani anywhere?
[QUOTE="Risto the Great"][I]It most definitely has a tanning industry and the resident Greek on the forum has avoided that. The leathers end up in Kostur for tailoring. It's just stating the obvious.[/I][/QUOTE]
Very interesting. But not surprising that pieces of information like this are excluded and need to be sought out.
[QUOTE="Amphipolis"][I]The texts I linked are very well written and detailed, and although google translated you got them right.[/I][/QUOTE]
The texts you provided were detailed for both Harvati and Kozani. I don't know how well written they were in Greek but I will take your word for it. As for the validity of the suggestions within those texts, they were rather poor. To be honest, given the obviously non-Greek origin of either word, I expected as much.
[QUOTE][I]If you suggest there’s no definite answer, well that’s usually the case with etymologies. If you ask which I tend to believe most, well it’s the Kosdiani one.[/I][/QUOTE]
I'm not suggesting that at all. Any reasonable linguist (or even layman, for that matter) would agree that Kozani (Кожани) is understandable with a perfect etymology in Macedonian and other Slavic languages. The same place name exists in Poland, Slovakia and Russia. In all four of these places, there is a history of Slavic languages being spoken. This is not one of those contentious words that is debatable or in dispute. You believe some story about an apparent "Kosdiani" in Epirus even though none of your sources corroborate it from a linguistic or logical standpoint. You're denying the obvious, but I don't feel the need to keep making the same point. You're free to believe whatever you wish. Anyway, thanks for providing the information, creative though it was.

Amphipolis 07-22-2020 12:13 PM

[QUOTE=Karposh;183531]It makes sense then that the word Kozani resembles a clear Macedonian etymology which means place of the goat or goat-country. Similar to the name of the very Macedonian-sounding Epirote town of Metsovo which literally means place of the bear or bear-country. However, with regard to the town of Kozani, I think it depends on what the actual correct pronunciation for the town is. Ko-za-ni would suggest a link to the Macedonian word for goat - [B]koza[/B]. But, Ko-zha-ni would suggest, as LoM alluded to, a link to the Macedonian word for animal skin - [B]kozha[/B].



I too, have always shared this second view, that the name of the town stems from the Macedonian word for animal skins, or some past tanning/leather industry. Does anyone actually know if Kozani has ever had a history in the tanning industry?[/QUOTE]

1. I don't remember if it was in the text I linked but I remember having read both theories in the past, in basic city guides.

2. Kozani DID have a tanning industry, but most of the info we can find is about later periods, after the name was established.


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