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-   -   Turkey & China: alternative for Macedonia? (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4411)

Prolet 10-17-2010 11:30 PM

[QUOTE]Yes it will cost billions but Besides China and Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Azerbaijan will be a part of this project too.[/QUOTE]

Spolaj Ti Onur

This will be a major project, its going to cost alot of money but its going to be of great service to all the citizens of those countries.

Bratot 10-18-2010 05:49 AM

[B]И Турција и Македонија ептен зорт во ЕУ[/B]

google trans:

Macedonia awaits a date for negotiations five years, and Turkey, having received candidate status, waited six years. Macedonia and Turkey are getting invented additional terms. Macedonia - the name and Turkey - the Cyprus issue and the Armenian genocide. Can our country in the European waiting room to handle the "Turkish destiny"?

Much of the annual European Commission report that Macedonia will get a month is already known, because every year there are remarks about the inefficiency of public administration, slow dealing with corruption, the flaws in the judiciary and so on. It is certain that a date for negotiations will not be there this year. Last year, the report recommended the commencement of negotiations without a date, which is not supplied by the Greek resistance and the search for a solution to the dispute.

Hence Macedonia fifth year will be no date for commencement of negotiations. Status of candidate country heads of state and government at EU nor approved the December 17, 2005, which preceded the membership application filed on March 22, 2004.

Unlike Macedonia, Turkey to get candidate status waiting for 40 years. Turkey's desire for inclusion in the EU was highlighted back in 1959. Application for associate membership in the then European Economic Community in Turkey filed in 1959, application for membership followed in 1987, and until December 1999 European Council decides to grant candidate status, as it now has and Macedonia.

Six years after the granting of candidate status in October 2005, symbolically begun negotiations between Turkey and the EU. After only one year, Turkey is faced with their freezing. Then as the cause was referred to the Cyprus problem. Meert Ulker, an analyst at Investment Finance announced from Istanbul then said: "The negotiations are not completely frozen, but will be slow until you take a concrete step for the Cyprus issue."


Turkish STORY


In both stories, and the Macedonian and Turkish, have similarities.

While Macedonia is blocked by Greece over name dispute, to Turkey were delivered many reasons why it is wanted in the European Union.
[B] The trouble, however, Turkey is one of the four fastest growing economies in the world, is a member of NATO since 1952 and has an important geostrategic position.[/B]

But in Europe there is great fear of Turkish integration. First of all, because there was a large population of nearly 70 million inhabitants of Islamic religion. Europe, the Balkans requires changing constitutions because of ethnic and religious tolerance, Islam considers Turkey's unacceptable in their ranks. Germany and France publically loudest and say it. [B]Former Prime Minister of Turkey, Tansu Ciller, the first said: "The EU regards as a closed Christian club."[/B]

Another cause fear and the Kurdish issue. Members living in Turkey about 30 ethnic groups, including more than ten million Kurds (among 10 to 15 percent) seeking secede
ment of the country. But even this is nothing new for Europe. With these problems are confronted and Spain, France and Belgium.

The Union is visible geostrategic fear. If Turkey becomes a member of the European family, the Union will be bordered by Iraq, Iran, Syria, Georgia, Armenia and will have "unsafe" neighbors.

That the EU is afraid of Turkey and the Czechs also commented which are principle for extending the EU. The daily "Mlada fronts dnes" stated: "Turkey is too big, and too Muslim and it's on another continent"

MACEDONIA AND TURKEY Exceptions


But Macedonia, unlike Turkey, has divided opinion on the strategic goals, although all are declarative integration and resolve the name dispute. [B]Turkey on this issue, has a unique position. Her national leadership says: "No new terms and conditions will be accepted, it will not accept membership on all means.[/B]

Experiences of Macedonia and Turkey are exceptions, confirming other examples of European integration. Croatia, which were in step, is now far ahead of us - have seen the end of negotiations. Croatia has applied to join the Union in February 2003, received candidate status in June 2004 and in December the same year received a date for negotiations, which began in October 2005. The political math shows - just a year divided by the beginning of negotiations after winning candidate status.

Other countries have almost no problems when it joined the Union. Poland, for example, the negotiations began in March 1998 and completed in 2002. In 2003 he signed a contract to join the EU, and membership followed in May 2004, when it happened and the largest expansion of the Union.

[url]http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=10181095918&id=9&setIzdanie=22110[/url]

Onur 10-18-2010 10:05 AM

[QUOTE=Bratot;74507][B]И Турција и Македонија ептен зорт во ЕУ[/B]

[url]http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=10181095918&id=9&setIzdanie=22110[/url][/QUOTE]


There can be some lessons for Macedonia about Turkey`s 50+ years of journey with EU.

First of all, Cyprus issue is a major example for EU`s hypocrisy and double-standards. EU says that Cyprus issue is the biggest obstacle for Turkey`s accession since 1990s. Turkish Cyprus government did negotiations with them for two years under the supervision of UN and everything was set up and agreed for the formation of new Cyprus federation of Greeks and Turks. Greek Cypriots was also doing negotiations for EU membership at that time. When everything was agreed between Turkish and Greek side, time for the referendum on both sides has been decided but all of a sudden EU leaders announced that they can accept Greek Cyprus to the EU no matter if they agree on the resolution of Cyprus problem or not!!!

Then Greek Cypriot leaders threw everything we did together for two years to the dump and called for Greek Cypriots to vote NO and refuse the UN peace plan which they have agreed before because they thought that when they will become EU member, EU would put Turkey under pressure and they can get the full control of whole island with the help from EU leaders.

By doing this, EU both sabotaged UN peace plan and gave false hopes to Greek Cypriots like they can throw the Turks out from the island to achieve their mythical "Enosis". I am sure that EU leaders promised this to Greek Cypriots behind closed doors, since Greek Cypriot leaders are already ex-EOKA terrorists, so they remembered their old EOKA days and they probably thought that they can really throw Turks out from there.

Also, Cyprus issue wasn't considered as a problem at all while accepting Cyprus herself in to the EU but for decades, Cyprus issue is considered as major obstacle for Turkey`s membership. How can we define this situation besides a double-standard?



[QUOTE]That the EU is afraid of Turkey and the Czechs also commented which are principle for extending the EU. The daily "Mlada fronts dnes" stated: "Turkey is too big, and too Muslim and it's on another continent"[/QUOTE]

[B]Turkey is too big; [/B] When they accepted ex-USSR countries like Poland, Hungary and 6-7 other small states few years ago all at the same time, they were poorer than Turkey economically and their total population was higher than Turkey [B][COLOR="Red"]but this wasn't a problem again.[/COLOR][/B]

[B]it's on another continent;[/B] Last time i checked, Cyprus was not in the Europe geographically [B][COLOR="Red"]but this wasn't a problem again.[/COLOR][/B]

[B]too Muslim;[/B] So, do we need to ask 80 million people to convert as christians to be a member of EU? If yes, then EU is a christian only club like some says.





[QUOTE]Another cause fear and the Kurdish issue. Members living in Turkey about 30 ethnic groups, including more than ten million Kurds (among 10 to 15 percent) seeking secedement of the country. But even this is nothing new for Europe. With these problems are confronted and Spain, France and Belgium.[/QUOTE]

This is not completely true. Not all of 11 million Kurds wants to secede from Turkey. The ones who wants that are only minority among Kurds and they are mainly recent immigrants(15-20 years ago) from northern Iraq who gets orders from there. The separatists voices are loud tough, thanks to the US and EU and the Kurdish PKK.





[QUOTE]The trouble, however, Turkey is one of the four fastest growing economies in the world, is a member of NATO since 1952 and has an important geostrategic position.[/QUOTE]

This is the biggest reason of why EU wanna keep Turkey right outside their doorway but never let us go far away for free.

There is also another major point;
Turkey is the one and only member of EU customs union without being a real member of the EU since 1995. This created unfair advantage to the EU because while they can freely travel to Turkey and arrange all type of businesses here, Turkish businessmen are blocked with visa restrictions and all kind of other barriers like prejudices and so on. So, this leaded Turkey to import more than she exports to the EU since 1995 and our imports from EU countries tripled because of the regulations imposed to us by the agreement of EU customs union.

I just checked from web, Turkey exports around ~90 billion US dollars worth goods to the EU but we import around ~105 billion US dollars from the EU(these are the statistics of 2008).

If(when) Turkey officially ends her journey of EU, we will also abolish the agreement of EU customs union. Then they will loose their advantageous privileges in Turkey and eventually they will loose a market of 80 million people, worths more than 110 billion US dollars for them annually.

This is their biggest fear but we will do that soon because our journey of EU already ended in the minds of Turkish people for a long time and it will also end officially soon.




All in all, I think first and foremost lesson for Macedonia would be; even if you accept all Greek demands now to be able to start negotiations for EU, this doesn't mean that everything will be OK for the future because your negotiation process can be stalled or delayed any time they wish and you would possibly face new set of demands.

Onur 11-13-2010 03:02 PM

Turkish naval force managed to build very first 100% Turkish made high-tech warship with anti-submarine and stealth technologies. Turkey becomes 2nd country in the world after USA for using this kind of technology on warships. It uses similar technology with US made stealth aircraft. It can completely escape from all kinds of radars.

In the news, it`s been said that a single warship costs about 210 million dollars to build in Turkey but if we would buy one from US, they sell it for 650 million dollars(ofc IF they prefer to sell one to us).



[QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B]Turkey’s First Self-Made Warship Under Trial [/B][/COLOR]

Turkey’s first self-made warship has been undergoing sea trials, the semi-official Anatolia news agency reported Friday, Xinhua News Agency reported.

Trial operation of the corvette F-511 TCG Heybeliada, the first warship completely built in Turkey and developed under the National Ship Project (MILGEM), has been going on as of Nov. 2, the agency quoted the Turkish Naval Forces as saying.

[IMG]http://www.worldbulletin.net/images_2/other/turkey-ship1.jpg[/IMG]

Construction of the corvette began in 2005 and the ship is expected to enter service in early 2011, the agency reported.

The MILGEM project aims to build a modern littoral combat warship with indigenous anti-submarine warfare and high-seas patrol capabilities, extensively using the principles of stealth technology in its design, according to the report.

13 November 2010

[url]http://www.turkishny.com/english-news/5-english-news/40125-turkeys-first-self-made-warship-under-trial[/url][/QUOTE]

Phoenix 11-13-2010 08:22 PM

I don't believe there are any alternatives for Macedonia based on one reason alone...the shiptari.

If Macedonia was to look elsewhere for alliances, whether they be military or economic, the shiptari would be used by the Americans to destabilize Macedonia...exactly the strategy that was used in 2001 by the Americans.

Prolet 11-13-2010 09:10 PM

I cant believe Australia isnt making its own war ships and even submarines, who can forget the Submarine saga where the Australian Government spent billions on faulty Submarines when they have made their own.

Onur, You should watch this, the Chinese build a 15 story building (I think its a Hotel) in just 6 days in Shanghai, its amazing.

[url]http://www.kurir.mk/magazin/zanimlivosti/7641-Kinezi-izgradija-15-katen-hotel-za-sest-dena[/url]

Prolet 11-13-2010 09:19 PM

[QUOTE=Phoenix;78025]I don't believe there are any alternatives for Macedonia based on one reason alone...the shiptari.

If Macedonia was to look elsewhere for alliances, whether they be military or economic, the shiptari would be used by the Americans to destabilize Macedonia...exactly the strategy that was used in 2001 by the Americans.[/QUOTE]

Phoenix, The Government cut our defense budget to 1.3% in an all time low but its been going down in the past 6 years. Its 93 million euros now and its basically enough to cover the wages. America is battling bankruptcy, they are heavily involved in two wars i dont think they can afford another one especially now when we are covering their backs in Afghanistan.

Phoenix 11-13-2010 11:55 PM

[QUOTE=Prolet;78031]I cant believe Australia isnt making its own war ships and even submarines, who can forget the Submarine saga where the Australian Government spent billions on faulty Submarines when they have made their own.

Onur, You should watch this, the Chinese build a 15 story building (I think its a Hotel) in just 6 days in Shanghai, its amazing.

[url]http://www.kurir.mk/magazin/zanimlivosti/7641-Kinezi-izgradija-15-katen-hotel-za-sest-dena[/url][/QUOTE]

Australia does to some degree build its own ships and subs, the designs are foreign and Australian shipyards are tasked with putting them together.

But its becoming harder to do due to the complexities of design and copyright of intellectual property. You need a strong R&D foundation.
The economies of scale today mean that its much cheaper to "buy off the shelf" than it is to build them yourself or to be in partnership with foreign nations in new arms programs...a perfect example is Australia's involvement in the Joint Strike Fighter program, that is running years behind schedule and massive cost blowouts...

Phoenix 11-14-2010 12:05 AM

[QUOTE=Prolet;78034]Phoenix, The Government cut our defense budget to 1.3% in an all time low but its been going down in the past 6 years. Its 93 million euros now and its basically enough to cover the wages. America is battling bankruptcy, they are heavily involved in two wars i dont think they can afford another one especially now when we are covering their backs in Afghanistan.[/QUOTE]

Prolet, many rich nations around the world have defence budgets of 1 - 2% of GDP...the super "rich" like the 'greeks' run their budgets at around the 5% mark, I'd imagine the USA to be higher as well...

What history has shown us is when an empire stops growing its war machine continues to drain the empire until that empire can no longer support it, that's the point that everything turns to shit...it was the Soviet Union a couple of decades ago...the 'greeks' are now in the final death throes and the USA is probably a mere decade away before they turn inward and you never hear from them again...

fyrOM 11-14-2010 12:19 AM

Prolet…you are joking…officially usa cant afford another big war…they will start as many wars big and small as they feel they need to. Do you not think the drug money going through Macedonia and Kosovo makes a deposit in the Albanians coffers for buying weapons. Sometimes in your posts you make out like you know a lot but in others you play things down it is extremely obvious you are playing dumb. Ne se praj na tri I pol. Mnogu debelo go mackas. Supporting the government is one thing but do you think nobody notices…ah we are going to have to send you back to first grade in spy school and this time don’t let your dad payoff the professors.


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