Monuments and Statues in the Macedonian Republic

[Prolet]

Risto, I dont know mate some people just like to pick on me for some reason LOL

TM, I've never seen this show in me life, i'd rather discuss the Macedonians in Pirinska Makedonija.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM, that's unethnical.
And hypermathematically unlikely to be Prolet.

LOL that's too funny. I love the Prolet,,,, I mean Paulie character lol

[TrueMacedonian]

Risto, I dont know mate some people just like to pick on me for some reason LOL

TM, I've never seen this show in me life, i'd rather discuss the Macedonians in Pirinska Makedonija.

Now you're just being modest about you A++ performance Paulie,,,,I mean Prolet

[Soldier of Macedon]

SOM, These words have been used for centuries because they always moved around and lived all over the world, mainly in Europe. So we use the words Cigani,Gjupci and Chergari i will say that Chergari are a similar race but not the same as the other two.

Prolet, you're a racist, or ignorant, or both combined. Simple. When a Macedonian says a 'gjuptin', we know exactly what it means, and if anybody is behaving like a 'gjuptin' in the manner in which you say it, then it can only be you. Like some hypocritical shupelka you are, because it is so hard to write 'Romi', isn't it? It is so easy to want respect as a Macedonian but so hard to call someone as they identify, isn't it? I'll tell you what it is, pathetic, plain and simple.

Keep going and you will retain no resepct here at all.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Crna Gora is serbian/serb.........

BBS, can you tell me what has led you to this conclusion that you seem to be pretty confident in? Please read the below thread about Montenegro.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1484

Shiptar is not a racist word or term.

Would you agree that it is a slang term, a play on the word Shqiptar, and that it is generally (not exclusively, but in most cases) used as an insult when said by Macedonians and others?

[Mastika]

SOM, These words have been used for centuries because they always moved around and lived all over the world, mainly in Europe. So we use the words Cigani,Gjupci and Chergari i will say that Chergari are a similar race but not the same as the other two.

BBS made a good comparison with the Hungarians, they call themselves Madzars or Madzari so people call them either Ungarci or Madzari and they dont seem to mind in that and why would you? Its like us being offended if we're called Makedonci. The Albanians are Shiptari and its no offense at all to call them that because this is how they call eachother, its not a racist word or slur they are purposely doing this.

As for the African Americans they were heavily discriminated with hate and racism, they wernt allowed to sit in the same places as white people, they were brought in as Slaves and humiliated, were the Albanians or any other minority treated this way in Stari Kraj?

Prolet, you cannot call an African-American a nigger, because they do not want you to call them that. Albanians also see the word "Shiptar" as being offensive, it has developed strong overtones and is considered by many to be pejorative and offensive. This is the case in 2010.

The same goes for the Romany people. Sure historically we have called them Gjupci, Cigani etc. however in 2010 this is offensive. They call themselves Roma and seeing as we live in 2010 we should call them by this name if we want to show respect towards them.

If you want to start a fight then by all means use racist/offensive terms, if you do NOT want to start a fight then you will call the people what they want to be called.

As for the person going on about Crna Gora and Bosnia not counting, what is wrong with you?! Crna Gora and Bosnia had the same status as Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia and Slovenia. The fact that many people see themselves as Serbs in Crna Gora does not lessen its status within Yugoslavia. Big Bad Sven, what you have said about the former Yugoslavia is very ignorant, especially about cultural diversity and what Bosniaks are or aren't, however I am not going to bicker with you over the where Tito's coffin did go and didn't go.

[Buktop]

How is it Buktop you always manage to swing topics around from UMetoD to the government and from Macedonian Patriots to Tito?

And Prolet, just for once batko, shut the fuck up stop giving this guy an excuse to change the topic.

The topic was on Yugoslavia brat, just look at the past 5 pages, I just stated my opinion, then mentioned that i noticed that it happened to be the 30th anniversary of the funeral, and everyone jumped on me for being a Tito lover. I didn't change any topic, it was you who changed it.

[Buktop]

We should put a sticker on Buktop that says "he's happy to answer any question and he doesn't hide from that" right Paulie,,,, err I mean Prolet

HAHA, I am gonna make that my sig

[Bratot]

Would you agree that it is a slang term, a play on the word Shqiptar, and that it is generally (not exclusively, but in most cases) used as an insult when said by Macedonians and others?

I would not agree with you.

For us even Bulgar can be perceived as a more less offensive term than a Shiptar.

- Bugarski kosh, bugarski voz, bugarska prostitutka, bugarska rabota, bugarski kvalitet, bugarski surat itn. itn.

Shiptar is simply a Macedonian variation of Albanian term Shqipetar and nothing more.

It's the same as Maqedonise used by the Albanians for us.

But.. the modern connotation of the term has been given the same way as for the Bulgars or even Grk - dolzen ko Grcka (indebted like Greece) liar as a Grk etc. etc.

Those are modern stereotipical meanings of a particular nation and I don't think we should stop calling the Greeks - Grci or Bulgarians - Bugari or Shqipetars - Shiptari just because they have built such reputation for themselves.
I would add that this reputation is not limited only as for Macedonian understanding but they share the same reputation worldwide.

[Prolet]

Bratot, What about defining the Gjupci,Cigani and Chergari? These names have existed in Macedonia since they first moved to Macedonia. I agree with the examples you gave above.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I would not agree with you.

For us even Bulgar can be perceived as a more less offensive term than a Shiptar.

- Bugarski kosh, bugarski voz, bugarska prostitutka, bugarska rabota, bugarski kvalitet, bugarski surat itn. itn.

Shiptar is simply a Macedonian variation of Albanian term Shqipetar and nothing more.

It's the same as Maqedonise used by the Albanians for us.

But.. the modern connotation of the term has been given the same way as for the Bulgars or even Grk - dolzen ko Grcka (indebted like Greece) liar as a Grk etc. etc.

Those are modern stereotipical meanings of a particular nation and I don't think we should stop calling the Greeks - Grci or Bulgarians - Bugari or Shqipetars - Shiptari just because they have built such reputation for themselves.
I would add that this reputation is not limited only as for Macedonian understanding but they share the same reputation worldwide.

Bratot, it's not what we perceive, it's what they perceive. If a Greek or Bulgar were in Macedonia and were referred to in Macedonian as a 'Grk' or 'Bugarin', they would not perceive it as offensive. If an Albanian were in the same position and were referred to in Macedonian as a 'Shiptar' at restaurants, shops, etc, they would perceive it as offensive. You all know this.

Irrespective of the fact that our word is based on their own self-designation, it has obviously been perceived as offensive for a while now. Can anybody show me the documented use of the word 'Shiptar' in Macedonian literature, newspapers, journals, media, etc? I would to know when it was first used by Macedonians and when exactly it became offensive to Albanians.

[Bratot]

Bratot, it's not what we perceive, it's what they perceive. If a Greek or Bulgar were in Macedonia and were referred to in Macedonian as a 'Grk' or 'Bugarin', they would not perceive it as offensive. If an Albanian were in the same position and were referred to in Macedonian as a 'Shiptar' at restaurants, shops, etc, they would perceive it as offensive. You all know this.

You are talking about the current perception that was recently attached to that term as ocassionaly in pejorative meaning.

But that was not the case before.

Irrespective of the fact that our word is based on their own self-designation, it has obviously been perceived as offensive for a while now. Can anybody show me the documented use of the word 'Shiptar' in Macedonian literature, newspapers, journals, media, etc? I would to know when it was first used by Macedonians and when exactly it became offensive to Albanians.

It became offensive to them after 1995, I don't know how much you remember the circumstances from that period and the ethnic aversion which followed later as a result.

As for your request I can provide partly some evidences of what I say:


"Narodi i etničke zajednice Sveta" from 1984 by the ethnolog Petar Vlahovic, page 76:




"Vojna enciklopedija" from 1975 page 499 , printed by JNA:




"National Geographic" in the section of "Yugoslavia: Six Republics in One" from 1970:

Gusinje Soft-Drink Break, Yugoslavia, 1970. "Forbidden alcohol by their religion, Moslem Shiptars enjoy a soft-drink break in the Montenegrin village of Gusinje, near the Albanian border. The photographer, shooting through the café's lace-draped window, caught his own reflection (left) and that of grinning boys in the village street."




And follow this video -> 0:10 sec.:

YouTube - People's Republic of Macedonia (post-WWII newsreel)


It's Macedonian newsreel from the period of 'Peoples Republic of Macedonia' which shows this term was regularly used without derogatory meaning.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for the clips, particularly the last one, which was very interesting. It certainly proves that the term was used in the past without being offensive.

You are talking about the current perception that was recently attached to that term as ocassionaly in pejorative meaning.

But that was not the case before.

But it is now Bratot, although I agree that their reasons for being offended when they weren't in the past are misguided.

[Big Bad Sven]

BBS, can you tell me what has led you to this conclusion that you seem to be pretty confident in? Please read the below thread about Montenegro.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1484

Grew up with many Montenegrins and serbs, and every Montenegrin i know of or knew about was a serb by Ethnicity and Montenegrin by nationality. Truth be told in my experiences Montenegirns are the biggest serb patriots, and nationalists. I still have quite a few montenigrins that i keep in contact with and most of them think the independance of Crna Gora was a disgrace and was achieved through the votes of bosniaks, shiptars etc who live in crna gora.
I believe that during the second yugoslavia the Montenegrins where also viewed as serbs and that their language was serbian?

Perhaps a lot has changed since the independence of Crna Gora and what those people think they are, and if they honestly think they are unique from the serbs then good on them and i support them 100%. But untill i start hearing from the montenigrins from themselves that they are not serbs then i will still reffer to them as a people part of the serbian familiy.

[Big Bad Sven]

You are talking about the current perception that was recently attached to that term as ocassionaly in pejorative meaning.

But that was not the case before.



It became offensive to them after 1995, I don't know how much you remember the circumstances from that period and the ethnic aversion which followed later as a result.

As for your request I can provide partly some evidences of what I say:


"Narodi i etničke zajednice Sveta" from 1984 by the ethnolog Petar Vlahovic, page 76:




"Vojna enciklopedija" from 1975 page 499 , printed by JNA:




"National Geographic" in the section of "Yugoslavia: Six Republics in One" from 1970:

Gusinje Soft-Drink Break, Yugoslavia, 1970. "Forbidden alcohol by their religion, Moslem Shiptars enjoy a soft-drink break in the Montenegrin village of Gusinje, near the Albanian border. The photographer, shooting through the café's lace-draped window, caught his own reflection (left) and that of grinning boys in the village street."




And follow this video -> 0:10 sec.:

YouTube - People's Republic of Macedonia (post-WWII newsreel)


It's Macedonian newsreel from the period of 'Peoples Republic of Macedonia' which shows this term was regularly used without derogatory meaning.

Great post.

I still dont see how the term shiptar is racist? They call each other as shiptars and their language is shiptar? The name "albania" and "albanian" was given to the shiptars by western countries. Its the similiar case on how the magyars call themselves as magyars etc but where given the name "hungarian" by the western nations.

At least with the Roma we know they dont like being called Cigani and they also do not reffer to themselves as Cigani. With our large majority they dont like being called shiptars but still use it to label their people? Pretty confusing stuff.

What the shiptars or "albanians" have done is played the reverese racism card here and made the serbs and macedonians look like oppresive bad guys. I think thats a guttless and low tactic coming from these people.