Kosovo: News, Politics & Issues

[Risto the Great]

I disagree with some of you who believe that Albanians do not respect Macedonia as their state, etc, etc. I said even before, that Albanians do accept Macedonia as their state and have more than one time expressed their will to be loyal citizens of Macedonia. Every political party that represent Albanians recognize the boundaries of Macedonia, its sovereignty, etc. Both Albania and Kosova in official level have accepted Macedonia's sovereignty and its constitutional name, something that did not occur with the rest of your neighbors, did it? I am pretty sure that racist slurs against Albanians are ruining the long peaceful harmony between Macedonians and Albanians and harming our relations and making difficult to stand together.

Epirot, thank you for that wonderful PR exercise. I will assume that you have recently been issued a visa to get out from under a very large rock. Just to get you up to date, ethnic Albanian political parties have challenged Macedonia's sovereignty repeatedly. Normal ethnic Albanians from Macedonia do not feel Macedonia should be the homeland of Macedonians and do not respect the need for even understanding the Macedonian language. How do you reconcile this with your utopian-like statements above?

[Zarni]

I have to admit I was expecting a little more form our Albanian friend and I do mean that as I find his knowledge on History very informative but shit he again is dodging bullets

First Kosovo for 1 year was threatening to declare a border War if the wishes of a few isolated Albanian farmers wasn’t meet it took 12 months of exhausting efforts for the regime in Kosovo to accept the border, the Republic of Albania continues to acknowledge Macedonia as FYROM in every official communication be it for reasons of Greek EU candidate talk threats it is the fact of the matter
Regarding Geek State Flags by Greek Business well I don’t like to see Greeks in Macedonia period but it is a standard practice by enterprise. Turkish Investors display the Turkish state Flag same deal
Again
1. The Albanian Political Block generally work for Pan-Albanian Interests first not that that of the State THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE
2. Albanians don’t want to integrate - language being the unifying force of a State is the prime example there is NO! Excuse None in the World for not sharing this value
3. Albanians in local Administration are largely in their positions not because they have the experience to be in their roles it is to serve the Ohrid Accord Quota and nothing else I have no problem with capable people (and there certainly are some very switched on Macedonian-Albanians in public administration) but to see a ethnic quota just to serve a number is wrong and then we see public abuse as per the Census UNACCEPTABLE
4. The Macedonian Flag must be supreme the flag of the Republic of Albania should be employed sparingly there and many examples in the World were a Foreign Flag can be seen in a Host Country but not abused as the Albanians do and I WILL NOT expect the argument by Albanians to the other effect they must associate themselves with Macedonian State and adapt.
5. There is a responsibly and ownership Albanians should have towards Macedonia if all they expect is to be awarded Civil Rights above and Beyond International and European Norms (Albanians cannot ever argue they are awarded rights both in Civil and Private Life)

I can share more Parliament question time and Al-Ahmeti are one of them and yes if Kosovo-Albanian who were granted Citzenship and a life in Macedonia 10 years agao continue on thier same path then dam staright I want them to leave

[Epirot]

what is inhuman is a country being forced to accept a non indigenous population

Oh yes. According to you, there were no Albanians prior 2001. I am really tired of hearing such groundless claims about accepting a "non-indigeneous population". You can maintain such a view, but believe me nobody will take you seriously. How can anyone gives credit to this statement? Albanians are inhabitants of Macedonia as well as Macedonians and other people who live for centuries there. The question who got the first Macedonia have no weight to determine the present state of things, have it?

the very same people refusing to become citizens of that country,

That's groundless! Albanians do not refuse to become citizens of Macedonia. For the sake of argument let accept that Albanians are refusing to become citizens of Macedonia...then why each of them have a passport of Macedonia?

refusing to learn the language

Seriously, have you ever read the constitution of Macedonia? Your statements carries no value since you're not living in Macedonia because you would be known with another reality. I know a lot of friends in Macedonia who speak fluently Macedonian. Most of them are young...

refusing to pay their electricity and other services,

Be careful now because you never backed up just a single accuse with a solid document. Albanians pays taxes as every people in Macedonia. I have not met until know any official reaction of government or any Macedonian party that Albanians are not paying taxes or something like that? Maybe the level of paying the electricity and other services is not satisfactory, but this is common for all Balkans states, isn't it? I do not believe that Macedonians themselves pay 100% electricity and other services.

lying cheating and stealing on a national census to inflate their population numbers in order to maintain their excessive minority rights

The failure of census cannot attributed to Albanians. There were a lot of technical problems and the authorities in Macedonia were not prepared adequately for census. How do you know that Albanian tried to inflate their numbers, when no statistic for this census has been produced yet?

As for hatred - please direct me to the point in my posts where I have advocated hatred, or demonstrated hatred?

Your post was exactly as following:

I was going to lobby for them asll to be sterilised originally

If this is not hatred, I really dunno what is?

It is the greatest insult you can impose on the members of the MTO, to call them similar to Greek prototypes!

Oh common, you're missing my posts. I did not say that all the members here are similar to the Greek prototypes. I was addressing just to a few members who demonstrate hatred in daily basis. I was careful to say "a certain members here do not differ much from their Greek prototypes" in order to differentiate them from most of honest and well-educated Macedonians here.

Not only are you incorrect but you fail to see the very courtesy that is bestowed upon you in allowing you to voice your opinion, challenge other opinions, disagree and argue with any or all members here - without being banned or ridiculed in a manner completely opposite to the "Greek prototypes" behavioural style.

I am grateful to that courtesy, something that you cannot meet in any Greek forum. From the moment I joined to this forum, I've respected strictly every basic rule of the forum. That's why the admins never complained about my presence here. During all the time I spent in MTO, I supplied with a lot of documents, passages and proofs in the favor of Macedonians. A lot of historical documents that are used by your friends are merely a modest contribution of mine. I enjoyed immensely every civilized debate in the History section and I hope my performance is good. The mutual courtesy does not mean that we should close our eyes when anyone use racist slurs against any people!

[Epirot]

First Kosovo for 1 year was threatening to declare a border War if the wishes of a few isolated Albanian farmers wasn’t meet it took 12 months of exhausting efforts for the regime in Kosovo to accept the border

You are inventing things out of nothing because Kosova never threatened with war or something like this about the demarcation of the boundary with Macedonia. Everything has been solved with a mutual dialogue and there is absolutely no dispute about border neither from Kosova nor from Macedonia.

the Republic of Albania continues to acknowledge Macedonia as FYROM in every official communication be it for reasons of Greek EU candidate talk threats it is the fact of the matter

Believe me, I heard this for the first time. In fact, Albania recognized Macedonia with its constitutional name and I got no idea when has changed its policy in regards with that. I came across Wiki list on Macedonia's name dispute, and found out that Albania really is among these states who still in officially level use 'FYROM'. But, Kosova recognize Macedonia's constitutional name:

^ MIA Kosovo is the 127th country that the Republic of Macedonia has established diplomatic ties with under its constitutional name.

Regarding Geek State Flags by Greek Business well I don’t like to see Greeks in Macedonia period but it is a standard practice by enterprise.

But the Greek activity in Macedonia is not limited only in the level of companies. I think you're aware better than me about the activity of some Pan-Hellenic associations who campaigned among Vlachs of Krusheva for declaring themselves as Greek-Vlachs. But it seem that you ignore completely that because all the time you're focusing in some non-existent risks about Macedonia...

The Albanian Political Block generally work for Pan-Albanian Interests first not that that of the State THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE

Please share to us any public statement of these parties that allegedly work for Pan-Albanian interests?

Albanians don’t want to integrate - language being the unifying force of a State is the prime example there is NO! Excuse None in the World for not sharing this value

The unifying force of a state is not always the language, as you assume. The cases of Switzerland and Belgium provide the contrary of your claim. I strongly maintain that the bond of a state consists in fact that its citizens accept its sovereignty over them. I do not think that Albanians have any issue about the constitution; I mean all what they're asking for is an equal treatment with Macedonians and others. Its absolutely not true that this demand is ruining the statehood of Macedonia, because constitutionally Macedonia proclaim equality to all of its citizens, regardless their ethnicity and religion.

There is a responsibly and ownership Albanians should have towards Macedonia if all they expect is to be awarded Civil Rights above and Beyond International and European Norms (Albanians cannot ever argue they are awarded rights both in Civil and Private Life)

The core of our disagreements on that issue consist that you and us maintain different views about the political rights. Albanians justily consider that their rights are not privileges but something that do belong for human beings, while a fraction of Macedonians thinks that every right given to the Albanians is a privilege.

[julie]

Epirot - The core of our disagreements on that issue consist that you and us maintain different views about the political rights. Albanians justily consider that their rights are not privileges but something that do belong for human beings, while a fraction of Macedonians thinks that every right given to the Albanians is a privilege.

What about the Macedonians in ALbania, you know the ones that fell behind the partitioned Macedonian borders? Should they not be awarded the same priveleges, or are they not human beings?

[George S.]

epirot the rights & priveleges go beyond.You lookat the agreements that stipulate that if its a certain % of albanians in a village they have certain rights.That is really secession.Why can't they live like normal macedonian citizens.Then they will enjoy the rights of macedonian citizens.I if they become macedonian citizens & respect the host country they are in.Also with this forging of the census the albanians were really anxious to demonstrate that there are more of them,they proved they cannot be trusted.Can they be really trusted to be in positions of power after what they did in 2001 i don't think so.

[Epirot]

What about the Macedonians in ALbania, you know the ones that fell behind the partitioned Macedonian borders? Should they not be awarded the same priveleges, or are they not human beings?

julie, in comparison with other neighboring countries, Albania treated well Macedonians, gave to them all the rights that a minority should have. Since the period of Enver Hoxha, Macedonians were allowed to learn their language in schools, to have their cultural circles, etc, etc. Albania and Albanians have cultivated a good tradition of cooperation, originating since the XIX century when patriots of both sides helped each other. I am pretty sure that you are aware that in Albania, the identity of local Macedonians has never been disputed unlike Bulgaria and Greece, where everything Macedonian is brutally denied. The unscrupulous thread 'the Albanization of Macedonia' is going to explode by the flood of images showing street tables in Albanian. I am wondering why some of you are afraid from bilingual tables? Do you consider that as 'Albanization' of Macedonia? Ok, you may post whatever you want, but this show that you do not grasp the reverse side of coin. Do you know that even in Albania, the street tables are written also in Macedonia, I mean in the municipalties and villages where Macedonians make up the majority?



If you ever visit Albania and its Macedonian inhabited municipalities (especially Pustec) you will notice that the names of streets are in Macedonian, etc, etc. Can you find me just a single Albanian who has opposed this reality?

Since the 2010, it has started to work the first Macedonian TV (Kristal) which covers the territory of Korçë, populated with more than 200.000 inhabitants. Did Albanians of this city complain for the opening of this TV in Macedonian? No.



Since 2002, the first radio station in Macedonian was set up (its name is Radio Prespa). The Albanian state owned Radio "Korca" broadcasts half an hour daily in Macedonian. No Albanian has complained for that. I imagine that if Albanians open a new radio that broadcasts in Albanian, the thread 'Albanization...' will be loaded with hundreds of paranoiac comments that Albanians are going to take Macedonia, "our politcans betrayed us' etc., etc.

[Epirot]

epirot the rights & priveleges go beyond.You lookat the agreements that stipulate that if its a certain % of albanians in a village they have certain rights.That is really secession.Why can't they live like normal macedonian citizens.Then they will enjoy the rights of macedonian citizens.I if they become macedonian citizens & respect the host country they are in.Also with this forging of the census the albanians were really anxious to demonstrate that there are more of them,they proved they cannot be trusted.Can they be really trusted to be in positions of power after what they did in 2001 i don't think so.

I find as pretty hilarious the bold sentence. You know why? Because the accuses for forging can not hold any water since no official statistic has been produced yet. The census is interrupted for certain reasons, so it would be very injustice to accuse Albanians for trying to forge the flow of census or something like that. Its easy for you to invent imaginative scenarios that Albanians are forging the census. But the funny thing is that a certain numbers of you are not living in Macedonia, so its quite amazing how do you know things without seeing them? Get a clear picture: every part involved in census process is tended to accuse other side for forging and manipulating. I heard also a lot of Albanians complaining that Macedonians are trying to increase artificially their number by registering even those Macedonians who are living outside Macedonia for more than 3 years ago, etc, etc. Even Turks were not satisfied with the course of process, because according to them, many Turks were forced to declare themselves as Macedonians. So, its quite impossible to find a census process where every part will be satisfied with the final statistics. Even after confirmation of statistics, every side will claim that their real number has been under-esteemed, its bigger that its appear in first sight, etc, etc.

[makedonche]

Epirot
I'll be giving you a detailed response in due time, however suffice to say that my level of respect for you has diminished significantly!
I enjoy most of your posts and thank you for the factual information you provide here, however unwarranted criticisms and unsubstantiated opinions have tainted your true worth!

[julie]

I agree with you makedonche . Until recently I enjoyed reading epirot posts and contributions . The diaspora is not as isolated as you state epirot . You say nothing about the Macedonians in Albania being threatened with fines for declaring themselves Macedonian . You draw parallels which are unweighted , the partitioning of Macedonia saw Macedonians in Albania suppressed for decades . In their own homeland . You make it sound like a privilege , their basic human rights which are still nowhere near the rights Albanians and the refugees are awarded . Nor do you speak of the torment , rape and murder of Macedonian civilians driven out of their homes by those same refugees who were given sanctuary in Macedonia when they should have been sent back instead of terrorizing the people who helped them . The census was rigged and no the Macedonian diaspora could not be included , but you seem to think it is fair for Albanians who never stepped foot on Macedonian soil should have that right ? As for how Albanians treat Macedonians , I was spat on as was my oz husband drinking water from mountain Tap in mavrovo national park . I was laughed at and belittled by a group of your fellow brothers when I fell with my walking aid due to a chronic medical condition . The way your brothers treat Macedonians with contempt is truly disgusting . I am not an isolated incident . My dads village lives an Albanian family who my family tried to live neighborly with . Don't get me started on how much they respect us , look down upon Macedonians and treat them like scum . Your politician was an u ck terrorist . He refuses to speak Macedonian . In Australia minorities are expected to speak the national language . My husband kept an open mind , and when he returned tells everyone here and in his high profile job how your brothers are in their respect and appalling behavior , and how the Macedonians are down trodden and the most hospitable and decent people he has ever met . This is why I have zero tolerance epirot , and speaking with 2 of the families that had young Macedonian soldiers murdered , their hands tied by your united states bum buddies and threatened with their families annihilation while they stood to be fired upon by your pig brothers . I suggest you stick with the history section before I paint you with the same brush seeing you support these actions

[makedonche]

Julie
Thanks for your support! I can verify most of your comments from Macedonians currently in ROM or those who have left recently or been back recently and all my sources are from real and reliable people, I don't need to google or wiki search any of my information!

[makedonche]

Epirot
A more detailed response for you:-

Epirot -Oh yes. According to you, there were no Albanians prior 2001. I am really tired of hearing such groundless claims about accepting a "non-indigeneous population". You can maintain such a view, but believe me nobody will take you seriously. How can anyone gives credit to this statement? Albanians are inhabitants of Macedonia as well as Macedonians and other people who live for centuries there. The question who got the first Macedonia have no weight to determine the present state of things, have it?

Kindly refer me to the sentence or phrase where I said there were no Albanians prior to 2001?
Groudless claims about a non indigeneous population? - How many of the appx. 300,000 that sought refuge from Kosovo atrocities by going to Macedonia, actually remained in Macedonia and are not yet citizens?
How many of these still travel between Kosovo & Macedonia, without Macedonian passports?
Albanians may well be inhabitants of Macedonia and may well have been for hundreds of years - however this is Macedonia not Albania, either accept and be loyal to your country of residence or exercise your democratic right to leave!
It's not a matter of who got their first, it's a matter of where exactly are you! - not happy there? exercise your democratic right to leave or adopt the laws of the country you live in!

That's groundless! Albanians do not refuse to become citizens of Macedonia. For the sake of argument let accept that Albanians are refusing to become citizens of Macedonia...then why each of them have a passport of Macedonia?

Groundless? There a more than a few Albanians who refuse to take citizenship - however the number is irrelevant, even if there is only 1 then they should also exercise their democratic right to leave - this is Macedonia, not Albania! As for them having passports - once again there are many without Macedonian passports and many more with Macedonian passports recognising their Albanian language and written in Albanian as well - what does that tell you about Albanians in Macedonia and the rights they have been afforded? Show me another European country that has made similar concessions? Also show me how this was achieved - I'll give you a clue it's got to do with terrorists!

Seriously, have you ever read the constitution of Macedonia? Your statements carries no value since you're not living in Macedonia because you would be known with another reality. I know a lot of friends in Macedonia who speak fluently Macedonian. Most of them are young

Read the constitution? What would be the relevance of this ridiculous question in the context of my original post? Don't forget the constitution has been changed as well, thanks to guess who?- oh that's right - Albanians!
My statement carries the utmost value - I'm Macedonian - remember? I don't need to be living in Macedonia to know what is going on or to care about my country!
So you have a lot of friends who speak Macedonian, congratulations, considering they live in Macedonia it is an expectation, not something to be expecting praise for!

Be careful now because you never backed up just a single accuse with a solid document. Albanians pays taxes as every people in Macedonia. I have not met until know any official reaction of government or any Macedonian party that Albanians are not paying taxes or something like that? Maybe the level of paying the electricity and other services is not satisfactory, but this is common for all Balkans states, isn't it? I do not believe that Macedonians themselves pay 100% electricity and other services.

Be careful? Careful of what? - telling the truth for all to see? Just you be careful and have a look at where you are - this is the Macedonian Truth Forum - not the Albanian pretend forum!
I can back up all my comments with people and their evidence, people who live there, have lived there or have been back there!
"maybe the level of paying the electricity and other services is unsatisfactory" - MAYBE? surely you jest? This is such common knowledge in Macedonia and even outside of Macedonia, that all you have to do is visit the electricity company and ask them who is and who isn't paying their bills, once youv'e done that come back and preach to me about your law abiding compatriots!
What you believe is irrelevant!

The failure of census cannot attributed to Albanians. There were a lot of technical problems and the authorities in Macedonia were not prepared adequately for census. How do you know that Albanian tried to inflate their numbers, when no statistic for this census has been produced yet?

This is so blatantly obvious that you are starting to become like our southern neighbours by living in denial! Some very obvious evidence for you would be the justice minister's actions in announcing all census documentation collected is to be destroyed - how about that documentation being retained and passed onto an independent enquiry? or is that too much evidence of fraud for you?

Your post was exactly as following:


Quote:
I was going to lobby for them asll to be sterilised originally

If this is not hatred, I really dunno what is?

This is not hatred, this is democracy in action( unless you believe lobbying is illegal and not a fundamental democratic right) and a proposed solution to a breeding problem!
You answer your own question quite well here "I really dunno what is?"
I agree with you on this one - you really dunno what is!

[QUOTE][Oh common, you're missing my posts. I did not say that all the members here are similar to the Greek prototypes. I was addressing just to a few members who demonstrate hatred in daily basis. I was careful to say "a certain members here do not differ much from their Greek prototypes" in order to differentiate them from most of honest and well-educated Macedonians here.

/QUOTE]
I haven't missed a thing here, it is you who is missing many things, for example where did I state that you said "ALL MEMBERS"?
Your choice of words is very poor, I do not see any members here display hatred on a daily basis - I see them display patriotism, loyalty, frustration, disbelief, anger and many other emotions - not hatred! Regardless whether they are "honest", "well educated", they are Macedonians and this is a Macedonian Forum! - unless of course if you threaten us with terrorist tactics to turn this into a Albanio-Macedonian Forum.

I am grateful to that courtesy, something that you cannot meet in any Greek forum. From the moment I joined to this forum, I've respected strictly every basic rule of the forum. That's why the admins never complained about my presence here. During all the time I spent in MTO, I supplied with a lot of documents, passages and proofs in the favor of Macedonians. A lot of historical documents that are used by your friends are merely a modest contribution of mine. I enjoyed immensely every civilized debate in the History section and I hope my performance is good. The mutual courtesy does not mean that we should close our eyes when anyone use racist slurs against any people

This being the case - your gratitude- doesn't that demonstrate a willingness to share/exchange/respect/admire/educate by the members here? Doesn't it demonstrate a quest for the truth?
Once again I will say that I have enjoyed many of your posts and I am grateful for the information and historical data that you provide here and the healthy and robust debates you have engaged in, however when you question my motives or imply that I display hatred or misinterpret what I write then I will question you and hold you to account for your comments - to which you have failed to answer my questions on. Furthermore for the last time kindly refer me to the "racist slurs" you refer to or my next post may not be as forgiving or diplomatic!

[makedonche]

julie, in comparison with other neighboring countries, Albania treated well Macedonians, gave to them all the rights that a minority should have. Since the period of Enver Hoxha, Macedonians were allowed to learn their language in schools, to have their cultural circles, etc, etc. Albania and Albanians have cultivated a good tradition of cooperation, originating since the XIX century when patriots of both sides helped each other. I am pretty sure that you are aware that in Albania, the identity of local Macedonians has never been disputed unlike Bulgaria and Greece, where everything Macedonian is brutally denied. The unscrupulous thread 'the Albanization of Macedonia' is going to explode by the flood of images showing street tables in Albanian. I am wondering why some of you are afraid from bilingual tables? Do you consider that as 'Albanization' of Macedonia? Ok, you may post whatever you want, but this show that you do not grasp the reverse side of coin. Do you know that even in Albania, the street tables are written also in Macedonia, I mean in the municipalties and villages where Macedonians make up the majority?



If you ever visit Albania and its Macedonian inhabited municipalities (especially Pustec) you will notice that the names of streets are in Macedonian, etc, etc. Can you find me just a single Albanian who has opposed this reality?

Since the 2010, it has started to work the first Macedonian TV (Kristal) which covers the territory of Korçë, populated with more than 200.000 inhabitants. Did Albanians of this city complain for the opening of this TV in Macedonian? No.



Since 2002, the first radio station in Macedonian was set up (its name is Radio Prespa). The Albanian state owned Radio "Korca" broadcasts half an hour daily in Macedonian. No Albanian has complained for that. I imagine that if Albanians open a new radio that broadcasts in Albanian, the thread 'Albanization...' will be loaded with hundreds of paranoiac comments that Albanians are going to take Macedonia, "our politcans betrayed us' etc., etc.

Epirot
This is good, now perhaps you can get them to change all the countries signs and allow Macedonian flags to be flown everywhere, and while we are at it how about we change the consitiution and have Macedonian as an official second language and recognised on passports and oh yeah - we want the minister of defence to be Macedonian too!

[makedonche]

I find as pretty hilarious the bold sentence. You know why? Because the accuses for forging can not hold any water since no official statistic has been produced yet. The census is interrupted for certain reasons, so it would be very injustice to accuse Albanians for trying to forge the flow of census or something like that. Its easy for you to invent imaginative scenarios that Albanians are forging the census. But the funny thing is that a certain numbers of you are not living in Macedonia, so its quite amazing how do you know things without seeing them? Get a clear picture: every part involved in census process is tended to accuse other side for forging and manipulating. I heard also a lot of Albanians complaining that Macedonians are trying to increase artificially their number by registering even those Macedonians who are living outside Macedonia for more than 3 years ago, etc, etc. Even Turks were not satisfied with the course of process, because according to them, many Turks were forced to declare themselves as Macedonians. So, its quite impossible to find a census process where every part will be satisfied with the final statistics. Even after confirmation of statistics, every side will claim that their real number has been under-esteemed, its bigger that its appear in first sight, etc, etc.

Epirot
You may well find this pretty hilarious, what I find hilarious is your narrow mindedness in accepting information provided to you and continuing to deny it - you're starting to sound more Greek with every post you make!

[George S.]

Epirot we knew what was going on Gruevski wanted to hold the census early in the year whilst your side was overseas albanians who are citizens wanting to come in july in the holiday season to vote in the census.So they your side wanted to delay it till july.What is that going to show that there are more albanians than there are possible.We know the albanians tried to show that the turks were albanian.Lucky gruevski wised up to what your lot was up to & put a stop to it.Your justice minister wanted to destroy the evidence in case they investigate.So epirot you think we don't know.I don't think they are going to use albanians in the next census count because you would be caught trying to forge it again.So the census has to be a true count of the people that actually live there not someone coming for a holiday.Blind freddy can tell you that it would be a fraudelent move to manupilate the census to their advantage.