Kosovo: News, Politics & Issues

[Onur]

Again OM, the USA is all over the Albanians and it has nothing to do with religion. They don't care about making poster boys, they see the economic opportunity to rape a region and see the Albanians as the easiest ones to influence.

I agree to you RTG.

USA doesn't care about religion or anything else. They can support someone today but they may try to destroy them next day(Al-Qaida, Talibans, Saddam vs Iran and more...). This is quite similar to the Roman Empire`s "Divide & Concur" policy and it`s still valid today.

You know that it takes at least 50-60 years for a new nation to stand up and stay alive on it`s own? 60 years if all the people works hard otherwise it will be much longer. So, every divided nation is for their own profit since it will be fragile to foreign influences and obey their wishes for at least 50-60 years.

[Uskana]

Uskana, say things like Shkup to your friends. It will not be tolerated here. You must understand the Macedonians should never be compared with the Serbs or anyone else in the Balkans. The ethnic Albanians in Macedonia have not suffered and I personally would be quite happy for the Macedonians in Albania to receive the rights that the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia received pre-2001.

The original name for Skopje is Skupi. Shkup comes directly from Latin since it follows the same linguistic development that occurred from Latin --> Italian/Latin --> Albanian (the hard Sc of Latin became the soft Shk of Albania and Sc of Italian). Like in Pescus --> Pesce/Peshk. But I will stop using the original form if it makes you upset. Are you upset that I chose the screenname Uskana and not Kicevo as well?

Pre 2001? Never will happen my friend. Albanians make up 25% of the country and should be treated higher then the other minority groups. Going back to something before 2001 would cause a major rift in the country and I don't see how a country can function when a quarter of it will want separation at that point.

Did you not read Onur's assessment of migrants from Macedonia to Turkey? Not surprisingly the majority ancestral language was Macedonian. If they were ethnic Albanians, they knew Macedonian.

I'll say it's interesting, but I'd like to see the sources. I have a few relatives that went to Turkey and initially had issues coming back to Macedonia. Today their offspring are proud "Turks." Whatever that means. The Turks have worked with the Yugoslav authorities and I believe many Albanians were placed in areas with large Kurdish population.

I have a theory Uskana, if an ethnic Albanian in Macedonia can speak Serbian but not Macedonian, they are illegal citizens of Macedonia. They should be moved to Kosovo immediately. What do you think?

Serbian and Macedonian can be easily understood by each group. The majority of the older generation can barely speak any Slavic language since they didn't learn it in school, my father's generation learned Macedonian in School and used Serbian during the YU time since most authorities spoke in that dialect. My generation that were raised in Macedonia learned Macedonian in school and can speak and learn Serbian due to the shows and music they listened to. You're idea is dumb.

Besides most Albanians do not speak Macedonian as fluently since it is not their native language. You're test is dumb to put it bluntly.

You seem to have missed answering a few questions:
From me: Canada, Switzerland and Bosnia are nowhere near similar. Why do you feel they are?

Mutlicultural countries. In fact, I think a federal system such as Bosnia would be best for Macedonia and this should of been implemented after the YU. It's obvious that our two sides have trouble co-existing with one another. I guess the only options would be to assimilate us (not possible in this day and age), deport us (which would lead to another war), implement a federal system or join the EU.

From Vangelovski: Further, why do you think Albanians in Macedonia deserve anything more than a western-style system of individual rights based on equality before the law? Why do you think Albanians deserve some sort of special treatment or collective rights (which they now have under the Framework Agreement)? What makes the Albanians worthy of the 'one citizen, two (or more) votes' under the Badinter principle?

Albanians make up over 25% of the country and they are not another minority group. Simple as that.

[Onur]

I have a few relatives that went to Turkey and initially had issues coming back to Macedonia. Today their offspring are proud "Turks." Whatever that means. The Turks have worked with the Yugoslav authorities and I believe many Albanians were placed in areas with large Kurdish population.

Hehe, "proud turks" ha? What about you? Are you proud American now? I bet your relatives whom you call as "proud Turks" are more Albanian then you are now. I wouldn't be surprised if thats the case. For example, whats your name? John, James, Richard? or Ermir, Bajram, Tariq?


Turkish government agreed with Tito to dump Albanians to Turkey?? LOL, where on earth you heard that fucking stupid conspiracy theory? Ohhhhh yes, we were dying to get 100.000s of Albanians to Turkey, give them homes for free and a job for all of them, plus the Kurds was anxious to hug your fellow Albanians. Haha...

"Big bad Turks" dilemma again... We even killed the Jesus, right? Damn, this never ends...

[Uskana]

Hehe, "proud turks" ha? What about you? Are you proud American now? I bet your relatives whom you call as "proud Turks" are more Albanian then you are now. I wouldn't be surprised if thats the case. For example, whats your name? John, James, Richard? or Ermir, Bajram, Tariq?


Turkish government agreed with Tito to dump Albanians to Turkey?? LOL, where on earth you heard that fucking stupid conspiracy theory? Ohhhhh yes, we were dying to get 100.000s of Albanians to Turkey, give them homes for free and a job for all of them, plus the Kurds was anxious to hug your fellow Albanians. Haha...

"Big bad Turks" dilemma again... We even killed the Jesus, right? Damn, this never ends...

I have an Albanian name. Nice try.

Turkey agrees to accept 200,000 Albanians, Turks, and Muslims from Kosovo and Macedonia, though the 1921 census counted only 50,000 Turkish speakers in Yugoslavia. Turkey wants to use them to increase the population of parts of Anatolia and around Kurdistan, especially Diyarbakir, Elazig, and Yozgat, which are worse for agriculture than the areas the deportees left. Some settle in Bursa, Istanbul, Tekirdag, Izmir, Kocaeli, and Ekisehir. Most are deported on the Skopje-Thessaloniki railroad, then by another train or ship to eastern Turkey. Despite accepting the emigrants, Turkey’s parliament refuses to ratify the agreement, which scholar Miranda Vickers will later attribute to a change of government in Yugoslavia in 1939, lack of funds, and the impending world war. [VICKERS, 1998, PP. 117-120; KOLA, 2003, PP. 21, 102]

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=kosovar_self-determination_tmln_40

It was in Turkey's benefit to accept these peoples and Yugoslavia benefited as well. The intention of both parties were clear.

And I see you're from Izmir........large Albanian population there from what I know.

[sf.]

Not quite the same thing. Those who were used by those powers as excuse for interference ended up as slaves. They just exchanged One servitude for another one.

We could expand on this, but I don't want to derail the topic. Perhaps in another thread at another time.

Again OM, the USA is all over the Albanians and it has nothing to do with religion. They don't care about making poster boys, they see the economic opportunity to rape a region and see the Albanians as the easiest ones to influence.

There are a bunch of reasons behind US policy/action in the region, and religion does play a part, but OM is off the mark about the aspect of it. The US needed to prevent radical islam taking a foothold in the region.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Uskana, by 'Albanian name' are you talking about a name that is understood in your language or an ancient name like 'Uskana' that means nothing in your language? Or perhaps a name like 'Berat' that has an equally insignificant meaning in your language?

Were your people calling their childen Ilir and Teuta before 1854, when Johann Georg von Hahn first claimed that Albanians 'descend' from the Illyrians? If so, I would be interested in some examples.

[sf.]

Also, my 2 cents on rights to self-government. 'Right' is a normative value that depends on perspective. "Natural rights" are presented as universal but in the reality, these are often irrelevant. I'm going to bring a dose of real-politik to the discussion and say that 'might is right.' If the Macedonians are not able to prevent the Albanians from seccesion, or regardless if the US wills seccesion, then Kosovo will recur. And then, you can have an academic argument on whether the Albanians had (not do have) the right to independence.

[Risto the Great]

Serbian and Macedonian can be easily understood by each group. The majority of the older generation can barely speak any Slavic language since they didn't learn it in school, my father's generation learned Macedonian in School and used Serbian during the YU time since most authorities spoke in that dialect. My generation that were raised in Macedonia learned Macedonian in school and can speak and learn Serbian due to the shows and music they listened to. You're idea is dumb.

I speak and read Macedonian. I struggle to understand Serbian. If an ethnic Albanian speaks Serbian in Macedonia, he is a guest of the country. Plain and simple. It is not dumb, it is a simple observation.

Besides most Albanians do not speak Macedonian as fluently since it is not their native language. You're test is dumb to put it bluntly.

The ethnic Albanians living in Macedonia are living in the Macedonian fatherland. They deserve rights, they also must know Macedonian. The ethnic Albanians in Macedonia who only know Albanian and Serbian probably came from Kosovo. Do you deny this?

Mutlicultural countries. In fact, I think a federal system such as Bosnia would be best for Macedonia and this should of been implemented after the YU. It's obvious that our two sides have trouble co-existing with one another. I guess the only options would be to assimilate us (not possible in this day and age), deport us (which would lead to another war), implement a federal system or join the EU.

Not a good explanation of why Canada, Bosnia, Switzerland etc are good examples. In fact really very light. None of these countries carry the torch for the fatherland like Macedonia does. To use your colourful language, your example is dumb.

Albanians make up over 25% of the country and they are not another minority group. Simple as that.

Is that it? I was hoping you would delve into the Badinter model and justify its applications arising from the terrorist led war of 2001. What is the percentage of the population where Macedonians can treat ethnic Albanians like shit? At (a debatable) 25%, Macedonia should award every ethnic Albanian about 2 votes for every 1 Macedonian vote. If it was say 2% we could have them all hung or something? You see? I know the wording is stupid and I harbour no secret desire to treat ethnic Albanians like shit or hang them. But I also have no desire to award them some mongrel type of reverse discrimination either. Irrespective of any percentage. Just in case your maths is challenged, even 25% is a minority. If it was say 11%, would your opinions change?

[Uskana]

Uskana, by 'Albanian name' are you talking about a name that is understood in your language or an ancient name like 'Uskana' that means nothing in your language? Or perhaps a name like 'Berat' that has an equally insignificant meaning in your language?

Were your people calling their childen Ilir and Teuta before 1854, when Johann Georg von Hahn first claimed that Albanians 'descend' from the Illyrians? If so, I would be interested in some examples.

My name can be translated in Albanian. Many of the names in the past were religious names.

Are there are names that are exclusive to Macedonians and are not shared by Bulgarian and Serbs?

[Prolet]

Serbian and Macedonian can be easily understood by each group. The majority of the older generation can barely speak any Slavic language since they didn't learn it in school, my father's generation learned Macedonian in School and used Serbian during the YU time since most authorities spoke in that dialect. My generation that were raised in Macedonia learned Macedonian in school and can speak and learn Serbian due to the shows and music they listened to. You're idea is dumb.

Besides most Albanians do not speak Macedonian as fluently since it is not their native language. You're test is dumb to put it bluntly.

So what if Macedonian and Serbian can be understood, we can understand Russian,Polish,Czech,Slovak,Slovenian too just like Italians,Spanish,Vlachs can understand eachother and some of their words are exactly the same thing. Lets not forget that the Roman Empire ruled most of the world for 1000 years so we have many Latin words in our language. Just like we have many Turkish words that we use today in our language.

The fact of the matter is that Macedonians in Albania speak perfect Albanian, you wouldnt know they were Macedonian if you spoke to them, the Macedonians in Greece speak perfect Greek where as the Albanians in Macedonia you can smell them from a mile away and know that they are foreigners and most of the time they are since many came from Kosovo and still cant speak our language properly.

I know Albanians who speak perfect Macedonian, the Turks in Macedonia are also very good. The real Albanians in Macedonia are good citizens who want to live in peace and harmony where as the Kosovars are those who are spreading all the hatred in our country these people lived in mountains and they never integrated with anybody, they are nothing more then a Ghetto group.

[Vangelovski]

Albanians make up over 25% of the country and they are not another minority group. Simple as that.

Macedonians account for at least 65% and we are happy with a system of individual rights and equality under the law. Why are Albanians different? Why do you feel Albanians deserve MORE than others? If you think that rights are based on numbers and ethnicity, then surely Macedonians should have greater rights than the Albanians?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Many of the names in the past were religious names.

Mate, don't give me some vague response. I specifically asked you if names like Ilir and Teuta were used by Albanians pre 1850's, if you don't know because you have no evidence or because there is no evidence, then just admit it and move on. So, do you have an answer for that question, or not?

Are there are names that are exclusive to Macedonians and are not shared by Bulgarian and Serbs?

Loaded question, but I will answer anyway. All of those languages belong to the same linguistic family, so naturally most of the names will be the same, similar or understood. Generally, there are some characteristic markers that can make it easier to distinguish, such as suffixes, whereas in Macedonian the 'che' is quite common, Borche, Stojanche, etc, in Serbian the 'sha', Sinisha, Nebojsha, etc, in Russian the 'shka', Mishka, Anushka, etc. Each group, Macedonians included, have their own names that aren't shared by others, you should ask your relatives from Bitola.

Here is a list of names in Macedonian, most of which are biblical, and their commonality to names in other languages:

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/mac.php

There are several more names that aren't there. I have a maternal ancestor called 'Temjana', I am not aware of any Serbs or Bulgars that carry such a name. Perhaps you are?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Kosovo independence.......meanwhile, the terrorist Haradinaj is being recalled by the Hague:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE66K0DF.htm

Kosovo leader Haradinaj to be retried-Hague tribunal 21 Jul 2010 09:10:38 GMT
Source: Reuters
* Haradinaj, others to be retried after appeal - judges * Judges say tribunal did not give prosecutors enough time

* Haradinaj to be detained pending further court orders

By Svebor Kranjc

THE HAGUE, July 21 (Reuters) - Kosovo's former prime minister will be retried for war crimes, appeals judges said on Wednesday after granting prosecutors' demands to have his 2008 acquittal by the Yugoslav tribunal overturned.

Ramush Haradinaj, a former commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) considered a hero by Kosovo Albanians, was acquitted two years ago of torture, murder, rape and deportation after judges found prosecutors had failed to prove a deliberate campaign to kill and expel Serb civilians from Kosovo.

But appeals judges at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia found that those trial judges erred by not giving prosecutors enough time to prove their case.

"It was clear that the trial chamber seriously erred in failing to take adequate measures to secure the testimony of certain witnesses," judges said in a summary of proceedings.

The ruling comes a day before a separate court in The Hague rules on the legality of Kosovo's 2008 declaration of independence from Serbia. [ID:nLDE66J086]

A former commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), Haradinaj was the most senior former KLA guerrilla to be indicted over the 1997-99 war during ethnic clashes between Albanians and Serbian forces.

After years in limbo after NATO drove out Serb forces in 199, Kosovo's 90 percent Albanian majority declared independence from Serbia in February of 2008.

Lahi Brahimaj, a deputy commander of the KLA Dukagjin Operative Staff, and Idriz Balaj, a former commander of a special KLA unit known as the Black Eagles, were also included in the judgment and ordered to be retried on some of the charges.

The three will be detained pending further orders from the court, judges said. (Writing by Reed Stevenson)

Coincidence, or a bone? With all of the lies, who knows.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Regardless of the process, there either is an inherent right to self-government or there isn't.

Vangelovski, would that mean that every individual should be afforded the same right, irrespective of where they are and of their situation? Where and how is the line drawn?

[Mastika]

Albanians make up over 25% of the country and they are not another minority group. Simple as that.

A very incorrect statement. You will find that Albanians form roughly 20% not over 25%. There are many places where people are declaring themselves as Albanians when they are simply not. In the Struga region for example in Labunista there are 4,288 "Albanians", in Boroec 74, in Podgorci 573 and in Oktisi 346. By simply looking at the official census you would assume that there was in total there were 5,281 Albanians, however they are all in fact Macedonian muslims. Those villages are Macedonian Muslim/Christian villages.

The same is happening over in Studenicani, there are 3217 "Albanians" in Batinci village, even though this is a Macedonian Muslims/Bosniak village. Even in Baciste village which you presented, where there are officially 766 "Albanians" even though the majority of the population are Macedonian Muslims.

I have just pointed out 10,000 Albanians which simply do not exist. This is a widescale phenomenon across Macedonia, which questions the validity of official statistical counts. About half of the Turks in Macedonia are actually Macedonian Muslims, writing themselves down as Turks. Seeing as I cannot apply the same logic to the cities, I am not able to give figures for more pseudo-Albanians, but imagine how many of the "Albanians" in Debar, Tetovo, Struga and Skopje are fresh arrivals from the aforementioned villages.

Another issue is the 'counting' od deceased and overseas relatives. For example officially 5834 people live in Velesta, however this year they were having trouble finding enough students to start a class for year one. Any village with a population that great would have enough for a number of classes. Who knows what the true population of these villages really is? In the Struga region 'officially' you have large villages which are 100% Albanian such as Radolista, Frangovo and Delagozda, Korosista but really how many of these people exist? Who is overseas? Who is dead? These numbers are highly inflated. We have already caught the Albanians from Velesta voting twice in elections, clearly showing that

In Tetovo it is even more extreme where there are a number of villages with populations over 5,000 people (Bogovine, Dobri Dol, Kamenjane, Recica, Cegrane, Celope). Do all of these people really exist? Statisticians don't know who is overseas/dead, and rely on people to be honest. Without honest statistical counts there can be no honest cooperation between the two groups.

Our people have given Albanians so many rights and freedoms already, even though we know that most of them aren't interested in the wellbeing of Macedonia or the Macedonian people. Imagine if Albanians began to show genuined desire for Macedonia and for the Macedonian people. Just think about how much more the country would progress. It needs to start with people like you who come here questioning who is really macedonian and what clothes we wear etc. What Albanians don't understand is that of all their neighbours WE are the least extreme and most interested in the rights of Minorities.