Hellenic religion

[Soldier of Macedon]

So these Gentile nations, if saved, were saved by faith. They had faith in God or gods and they trusted in their gods for mercy and salvation.

Ok. So how does this work into your previous statement cited below:

The Jew and the Hindu and the Muslim, etc, will all go to hell because of one thing: they don't believe in Christ.

Some clarity please, as it seems that on the one hand the faith in their Gods is sufficient to be saved whereas on the other, unless they believe in Christ they are all burning in hell.

[makedonin]

You say:

The punishment for sin is eternal hell.

but I know it like this:

The punishment for our Sin is Death

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:20&version=9;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...205&version=9;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=23&version=31&context=verse

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&version=9

http://goodwordwebs.com/good_word/the_punishment_for_sin_is_death.htm

Not Hell!

##################################

As for Jehovah you can read this:

1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto Jehovah, and spake, saying, I will sing unto Jehovah, for he hath triumphed gloriously: The horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 Jehovah is my strength and song, And he is become my salvation: This is my God, and I will praise him; My father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 Jehovah is a man of war: Jehovah is his name.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=15&version=8

Ye see, Jehovah was the God of war of the Jews, who was to deliver them from the Egyptian slavery
When ever you encounter Jehovah in the Old Testament, there is a war and murder, for example:

And they warred against Midian, as Jehovah had commanded Moses, and slew all the males.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=31&version=16

20And Moses said to them, If ye do this thing, if ye arm yourselves before Jehovah for war,

21and all of you that are armed go over the Jordan before Jehovah, until he have dispossessed his enemies from before him,

22and the land is subdued before Jehovah, and afterwards ye return, ye shall be guiltless toward Jehovah and toward Israel, and this land shall be your possession before Jehovah.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=4&chapter=32&version=16

10 And the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him, and he judged Israel; and he went out to war, and Jehovah delivered Cushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand: and his hand prevailed against Cushan-rishathaim.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=7&chapter=3&version=8

Just forget for a second that the Name Jehovah is to be associated with God, and you will see an Image of a War General or even Ares or Mars.

No better than Alah

[makedonin]

And for about the Gnosticism,here is something for you:

But the kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.

Source: Coptic Thomas Evangelium

Or here

No Pope or Priest would ever agree with this, cause they want to lock your soul in fear and control or manipulate you, think about it

If the Kingdom is with in you, you don't need a Church or a Priest. It is God and you, and no one in between.

This is why the powerful men who play Gods men and sit on tons of gold don't want you to see this.

[Philosopher]

Ok. So how does this work into your previous statement cited below:

Some clarity please, as it seems that on the one hand the faith in their Gods is sufficient to be saved whereas on the other, unless they believe in Christ they are all burning in hell.

I'm surprised on how little you understand. The Jew, the Muslim, the Hindu, etc, are damned to hell because they reject Christ. Those who lived before Christ could not believe in Christ because he wasn't incarnated.

That is why I quoted St. Paul's quote when he said that in previous ages, before Christ, God tolerated the false beliefs of the pagans. But now, in the Christian era, he requires all to repent and come to the knowledge of Christ. Those who reject Christ are damned because there is no manner for them to stand before a holy and just God.

There is no contradiction. Moreover, I'm simply pointing out that those gentiles who lived before Christ might have been saved. I don't know; only God knows. I'm merely pointing out that God condoned the ignorance before the Christian era, not after.

And I would point out that just because people had faith in some god or gods before the christian era does not mean that they were saved. Many religious practices are so abominable that God cannot tolerate them in the least. Those who followed the examples of the hindu gods, and the Egyptian and the Greek, Macedonian, and Roman would also be damned to hell because their morality was so abhorrent that it testifies to their false beliefs.

[Philosopher]

Makedonin,

You wrote:

You say:

Quote:
The punishment for sin is eternal hell.
but I know it like this:

Quote:
The punishment for our Sin is Death

Quote:
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:20&version=9;

Quote:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...205&version=9;

Quote:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&context=verse

Quote:
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...d=66&version=9

http://goodwordwebs.com/good_word/th...n_is_death.htm

Not Hell!

FALSE!!!

By Death, the author is referring to spiritual death, not physical. Otherwise, every human would have been struck dead by God when they sinned. Spiritual death leads to Hell. I find it funny on how you glossed over scriptures that speak of Hell.

Matthew 23:33 "3

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

Luke 12: 5 "5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

and Revelation 19:20 "20

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

and Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

And Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

##################################

As for Jehovah you can read this:

Quote:
1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto Jehovah, and spake, saying, I will sing unto Jehovah, for he hath triumphed gloriously: The horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 Jehovah is my strength and song, And he is become my salvation: This is my God, and I will praise him; My father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 Jehovah is a man of war: Jehovah is his name.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=15&version=8

Ye see, Jehovah was the God of war of the Jews, who was to deliver them from the Egyptian slavery
When ever you encounter Jehovah in the Old Testament, there is a war and murder, for example:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a grave difference between a God of War and a God who wages War. You don't seem to understand the difference. I don't dispute that God wages war and has waged wars in the Old Testament.

This is how God executes judgment on nations and peoples. There is nothing immoral about a just war; and one must understand why God waged wars the manner he did in the Old Testament. You fail to see this point. God is a God of peace and of War; War, because he is a just God who cannot tolerate evil and has to recompense the sinner; but a God of peace because he desires peace, but his creation is rebellious.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
And they warred against Midian, as Jehovah had commanded Moses, and slew all the males.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=31&version=16

Quote:
20And Moses said to them, If ye do this thing, if ye arm yourselves before Jehovah for war,

21and all of you that are armed go over the Jordan before Jehovah, until he have dispossessed his enemies from before him,

22and the land is subdued before Jehovah, and afterwards ye return, ye shall be guiltless toward Jehovah and toward Israel, and this land shall be your possession before Jehovah.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=32&version=16

Quote:
10 And the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him, and he judged Israel; and he went out to war, and Jehovah delivered Cushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand: and his hand prevailed against Cushan-rishathaim.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...er=3&version=8

Just forget for a second that the Name Jehovah is to be associated with God, and you will see an Image of a War General or even Ares or Mars.

No better than Alah

"No better than Allah"--that's a joke. Let me ask you something cowboy. Do you believe that wars can be just or are they all immoral? Do you believe in self defense?

[Philosopher]

And for about the Gnosticism,here is something for you:




No Pope or Priest would ever agree with this, cause they want to lock your soul in fear and control or manipulate you, think about it

If the Kingdom is with in you, you don't need a Church or a Priest. It is God and you, and no one in between.

This is why the powerful men who play Gods men and sit on tons of gold don't want you to see this.

It's funny that you quote a gnostic gospel that states the kingdom of God is within you and then go on to state that no pope or priest would ever agree with this. And yet, my ignorant friend, every Christian believes this because Christ himself taught this.

In the Gospel of Luke 17:20-21 it states "20

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Do you know what this means? This means that the Holy Spirit dwells within Christians, not Gnostics. And a collective group of believers are called an "assembly" or "church." Which simply means a people called out, not a building.

You still haven't answered my questions. And answer my previous posts about the prophecies in the Old Testament and Christ's prediction of the destruction of the Second Temple in 70AD--forty years before it happened.

[makedonin]

Philosopher, do you feel better, when calling me names? I hope it is better for you.

What do you thing they were doing in Nicea.
Reviewing the foundations of faith

See more here

And one more Note:

There are three basic ways of approaching a New Testament biblical text:

a) You can accept it as revealed word of God, as many fundamentalist groups have done for centuries, and read the words as a direct message from deity. In terms of faith and meaning, this is powerful, but for those with historical and critical training, it can seem entirely misleading.

b) You can deal with NT texts in terms of the development of the Church in the succeeding two millennia. There is abundant material available to show the stages of change, alteration and transmutation as the Church progressed through stages of social development in an evolving secular world.

c) You can deal with the Greek text, which is clearly the published original, as the terminus of some seven centuries of highly organized Greek and Hellenistic thought and language. In other words, you read the NT Greek text with careful reference to what had gone before, that long thread of Greek writing from Homer to the Greek speaking Jewish readers of the Greek Old Testament as the LXX.

http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/Humanities/Corinthians.html

As for this, I completely understand what he says:

Quote:
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:20&version=9;

The soul shall die. In the old Testament God Breathe Adam the Soul, and life was given.

Thus, when the Soul will die, I ask you who is there to remian in eternal Hell? Who is this one who lives after the Life giving Soul is dead?

See, the references of Hell in the Bible, and the punishment for sin with death of Soul are written obviously from different people, thus the different story

The apostoles were people, sinners like everyone else, and by no means perfect.

You claim it is all about faith, well St. Paul thought it is something else:

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

.................

3And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13

So strong faith in God that you can do the miracles Jessus did, and still it is not enough, and he considers that if he has no love, he is nothing.

As for the

Do you believe that wars can be just or are they all immoral? Do you believe in self defense?

Self defense or not, Murder is Murder, and according to Jahveh law (that he broke tousends of times) Murder is sin, and sin is death of Soul.

We are all siners and we will die in Spirit, so that no one is there for the Hell.

[Philosopher]

Philosopher, do you feel better, when calling me names? I hope it is better for you.

What do you thing they were doing in Nicea.
Reviewing the foundations of faith

See more here

And one more Note:




As for this, I completely understand what he says:



The soul shall die. In the old Testament God Breathe Adam the Soul, and life was given.

Thus, when the Soul will die, I ask you who is there to remian in eternal Hell? Who is this one who lives after the Life giving Soul is dead?

See, the references of Hell in the Bible, and the punishment for sin with death of Soul are written obviously from different people, thus the different story

The apostoles were people, sinners like everyone else, and by no means perfect.

You claim it is all about faith, well St. Paul thought it is something else:



So strong faith in God that you can do the miracles Jessus did, and still it is not enough, and he considers that if he has no love, he is nothing.

As for the



Self defense or not, Murder is Murder, and according to Jahveh law (that he broke tousends of times) Murder is sin, and sin is death of Soul.

We are all siners and we will die in Spirit, so that no one is there for the Hell.

Calling you ignorant is not a name. Ignorant merely means uniformed. When you quote me a gnostic gospel about the kingdom of God being within you and then state that the pope and priests don't want people to think that, when in reality that is what Christ taught in the Gospel of Luke, is sheer ignorance. If you can think of a better word, then let me know.

As for the Scriptures and Nicea, it is the Scriptures themselves that testify that they are "God breathed." They are literally true irrespective of what modern intellectuals believe.

Buddy, you don't know a thing about Nicea. Conspiracy theorists like Dan Brown try to illustrate a picture that doesn't exist in Christianity. The Fact is, I have the writtings of the Church Fathers of the late 1st and 2nd and 3rd centuries, before Nicea, and they, as the verbal inheritors of the apostles, wrote down the beliefs of the early Church, and are in harmony with the New Testament. What doctrine in Nicea is alien to the teachings of the old and new testaments?

The apostles were mere men--Have I said anything to the contrary? They were saved by grace, through faith, like every other believer.

When I say it is of faith I am referring to something entirely different than when St. Paul writes about Love. Love without true faith leads to hell--witness Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. The Love Paul writes about is Divine Love and brotherly love.

Jehovah did not break any of the commandments at all; being God, he can punish anyone who breaks his will. He is the potter and we are merely the clay. To suggest that God broke his own laws by promoting war is laughable. A real joke, pal.

Murder is not Murder. Some people deserve to die; this is up to God to decide and the state, as in capital punishment.

If the Bible is merely the product of change and evolution in Greek thought, why is it that the Christian God is not married to his Sister? Why would the apostles want to give a Pagan religion when they hated Gentiles and pagan culture? And why would they die promoting the resurrection and the deity of Christ when they knew it was a lie? And how is the Bible accurate in every prophecy uttered in the Old and New Testaments?

Explain to me Isaiah 53? Explain to me Psalm 110? Explain to me Psalm 16? Explain to me the shadows and types of the Old Testament?

Food for thought...

[Diabolical]

hmm, thanks for answering my question, Philosopher. I think it's time I read the Bible in it's entirety and not just bits and pieces here and there...

One last question What happens to young children who die? Do they go to heaven because they couldn't have sinned yet? What of those who die before their christening? (eg. stillbirths)

[makedonin]

Does calling me Ignorant makes you more secure in your faith ? Hope so, cause you need it. You sign up here as Philosopher, but you are actually preaching Dogma and you are being sensetive being questioned.

When I say it is of faith I am referring to something entirely different than when St. Paul writes about Love. Love without true faith leads to hell--witness Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. The Love Paul writes about is Divine Love and brotherly love.

Now we have many different faith

When the disciples had Jesus off to themselves, they asked, "Why couldn't we throw it out?"

20"Because you're not yet taking God seriously," said Jesus. "The simple truth is that if you had a mere kernel of faith, a poppy seed, say, you would tell this mountain, 'Move!' and it would move. There is nothing you wouldn't be able to tackle."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&version=65

It is the faith in God that Paul is talking as Jessus told us !

As for the Hell thing, say's who! You did not answer who will go to heaven, when the Soul will die i.e. cease to exist when punished for it's sin.
Paul is right, it is the Divine love, that is even greater, God is Love, and if you have it, You are saved.

Jehovah did not break any of the commandments at all; being God, he can punish anyone who breaks his will. He is the potter and we are merely the clay. To suggest that God broke his own laws by promoting war is laughable. A real joke, pal.

Murder is not Murder. Some people deserve to die; this is up to God to decide and the state, as in capital punishment.

If you read the quotes about Jehovah, it ain't only for punishment, it is about conquest and defeating the enemy's of Jehovah in Jordan etc.! This are people his "children" and yet "he" or better said Moses tells the Israelis to subdue them! Some have to be killed, and only the women should be taken as prey

You started to talk about

Do you believe that wars can be just or are they all immoral? Do you believe in self defense?

and wanted to back the Jehovah deeds as self defense, or even justify murder as self defense, but if you go through the old Testament, Jehovah is giving the Israelis the task to kill in His name, if he is the Immortal Everlasting God, he does not have to be afraid of any evil and have to take care of his children, not to destroy them when ever something does not suits him !

No justification is that, just because he is God, he can do killing. It is no better than any Human who has more power in his hands and does the same around. He gives a Good example. He sounds like some Macedonian father who is telling to his Son "I have made you, I will destroy you" and than after his rage is talking about love.

Where is the difference between the both? It is the Power or the Status. Both are Egocentric

And why would they die promoting the resurrection and the deity of Christ when they knew it was a lie?

I did not say that they believed it is a lie!

The case is very simple. Every human being is confronted with his mortality from time begin. Everyone is afraid to die, and many systems were developed to give some relief for this fact.

The Idea is very strong mean, if you repeat it you come to believe it, and it does not matter if it is true or false. People die every day protecting their Idea of something. Take a look at the extremists, the Taliban and Co. They also have the Idea that they will go in Paradise for doing what they do.

It is the same Method, only the outcome is different. But the Inquisition was nothing better. And Christians were killing for centuries the "non believers" just because this "non believers" challenged their Idea of the after life

The thought that faith is enough to save you from condemnation is a comfort for you, but when someone is challenging this Idea, you certainly have this creepy feeling in your back, don't you, so you have to label me ignorant to feel better. Than you go again reading your book to find try to strengthen your faith.

I see Christians running around, proclaiming their believe and try to "save" the others, but in the end, it is only the Peer pressure or emotional Black mail i.e. "If you don't believe this or that, you are lost or condemned. Join our clique, and you are safe".

If someone converts or accepts your belief, you feel safer, cause you are not alone in your belief.

I see Christians running around and on the end of the day, it always ends up similar to this :

"If I believe and no matter what sin I have commit, I am saved, I will not go in Hell".

The above is not different for other Religions and Mass belief.

That's it. I am off this topic. I wish you everlasting peace and harmony in Heaven cause it might happen,that you end up lonely there

[Soldier of Macedon]

You know what, I am suprised at how much you think you understand and how you consider your opinion the only valid one where it concerns this topic, and how you like to arrogantly demean the opinion of other Macedonians here with your evident arrogance in tone. Perhaps you should reconsider your approach, if you want people to assume that you do actually know what you are talking about rather than having them assume you are some religious zealot unwiling to hear what others have to say.

I will address the rest later.

I'm surprised on how little you understand. The Jew, the Muslim, the Hindu, etc, are damned to hell because they reject Christ. Those who lived before Christ could not believe in Christ because he wasn't incarnated.

That is why I quoted St. Paul's quote when he said that in previous ages, before Christ, God tolerated the false beliefs of the pagans. But now, in the Christian era, he requires all to repent and come to the knowledge of Christ. Those who reject Christ are damned because there is no manner for them to stand before a holy and just God.

There is no contradiction. Moreover, I'm simply pointing out that those gentiles who lived before Christ might have been saved. I don't know; only God knows. I'm merely pointing out that God condoned the ignorance before the Christian era, not after.

And I would point out that just because people had faith in some god or gods before the christian era does not mean that they were saved. Many religious practices are so abominable that God cannot tolerate them in the least. Those who followed the examples of the hindu gods, and the Egyptian and the Greek, Macedonian, and Roman would also be damned to hell because their morality was so abhorrent that it testifies to their false beliefs.

[Pelister]

Christ is the Son of God, and the only way to the Father is through him.

Lamb of God
Bringer of Justice
Have mercy on us.

Lamb of God
Bringer of Justice
Grant us Your peace.

[Risto the Great]

Well what about the Holy Spirit ... where does he come from?

Be careful ... you could become a catholic with the wrong answer.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Those who followed the examples of the hindu gods, and the Egyptian and the Greek, Macedonian, and Roman would also be damned to hell because their morality was so abhorrent that it testifies to their false beliefs.

So it would seem that our ancestors, many of whom did not accept Christianity as a faith for several centuries after the travels of Saint Paul in Macedonia, were sent to hell. I find that hard to believe, that perspective of our Christian faith, wether cited in the good book or conceived by mortals after the fact, is not one I share. If a man was a Pagan and his son was a Christian, would the son really believe his father went to hell? In my opinion, very unlikely, and that is being realistic.

I look at Orthodox Christianity as a fundamental part of the history and culture of the Macedonian people, we are recorded as a nation in the Bible, there is no denying our right to the table of nations. What I don't agree with is Christian extremism to the point that other cultures, peoples and religions are apparently so 'intolerable' that I am supposed to consider my Hindu neighbour and Jewish co-worker as people beneath me and destined to hell.

That is not what Christianity represents for me. Would I prefer the whole world to be Christian? Of course, less chances of religious conflict, more unity, etc, but I am also being partially biased because I am a Christian, and that is being realistic. However, as a Christian, I feel that the my morals require me to see all equally, regardless of differences, perhaps me being Macedonian has also strengthened that feeling given that some of our neighbours have viewed our people as beneath them.

Our faith will not be saved by attacking others, salvation lies within.

[Risto the Great]

That is tricky stuff SoM.
What you are talking about is "being nice".
But the bible has rules with which Christians must abide by. It does not always equate with being nice.

I struggle with it.