Hellenic religion

[Diabolical]

Wow i missed this topic.

Philosopher, since you know heaps about Christianity, can you answer a question for me? (honest question)

The Christian God is pretty much a merciful and forgiving God right? I could go and shoot up a school, and later, if I seek forgiveness and am truly sorry for killing innocents and breaking a commandment, my sins will be forgiven and I can enter the kingdom of heaven.

Would I be correct in saying this? After all, was not a murder and a thief crucified with Jesus, but because he asked for forgiveness and accepted God, he went with Jesus to heaven right?

Why then, if we die sinfully, are we doomed to spend eternity in hell with no chance of forgiveness ever

Does that not seem contradictory to the teachings of Christianity that all sins are forgiven?

I'm not an expert on the subject so if you can clear that up for me that would be great hehe

[makedonin]

Why then, if we die sinfully, are we doomed to spend eternity in hell with no chance of forgiveness ever

Does that not seem contradictory to the teachings of Christianity that all sins are forgiven?

The contradiction is in deed there! The answer is:

Cause you have to go through the one and only gate to Heaven and to enjoy the Gods mercy: Christ.

The problem is that this Idea is so narrow and manipulative (as in every religion) cause it addresses the Human fear and need of security of self preservation.

Thus, the "One and Only Way is there and is very narrow" and the Papa or the Priest is telling you if you are going to miss it

So you do what they tell you for example making a crusade to "liberate" the Holy city, or blessing a Cannons to kill more of your Human brothers (like the Greeks did it) etc.

[Philosopher]

Wow i missed this topic.

Philosopher, since you know heaps about Christianity, can you answer a question for me? (honest question)

The Christian God is pretty much a merciful and forgiving God right? I could go and shoot up a school, and later, if I seek forgiveness and am truly sorry for killing innocents and breaking a commandment, my sins will be forgiven and I can enter the kingdom of heaven.

Would I be correct in saying this? After all, was not a murder and a thief crucified with Jesus, but because he asked for forgiveness and accepted God, he went with Jesus to heaven right?

Why then, if we die sinfully, are we doomed to spend eternity in hell with no chance of forgiveness ever

Does that not seem contradictory to the teachings of Christianity that all sins are forgiven?

I'm not an expert on the subject so if you can clear that up for me that would be great hehe

My good man,

You do err in your understanding in some points. With regard to the last part of your question, it does not seem contradictory at all. There is no chance for forgiveness in the next world; forgiveness can only be sought in this world.

The reason for this is obvious. If a person dies a sinner, for him or her to seek mercy in hell, is contrary to the will of God. Although God is a God of mercy and grace, he is also a consuming, wrathful, God. This is not contradictory. God is just; and his justice does not allow the wicked or the guilty or the sinner to go free from punishment. God's punishment is eternal hell for the sinner; he makes the rules, I don't.

I understand that if God is merciful, then he should be graceful to the sinner in hell who cries for forgiveness. But, my friend, in the criminal justice system, when a person is sent to life in prison or the death penalty, no matter how many tears he or she has shed or how much forgiveness he or she has sought, justice prevails over mercy. The same with God; God is no fool; nor will he be mocked. If a person lives a life of sin, God will judge him or her the way he sees fit. And that, my friend, is eternal judgment--God will have no mercy on the sinner outside of this world because the person is already in condemned in judgment.

With regard to your first question. Let me fill you in on a simple truth that you will never hear anywhere. If a sinner commits murder and then seeks God through Christ; and seeks the forgiveness of God in Christ; then he or she will be forgiven.

However, and this is a big however; it isn't a matter of seeking forgiveness. Unless one receives the Holy Spirit of God in this world, a person cannot be forgiven his or her sins no matter how much they cry unto God. This explains why a Jew or Hindu may never murder will never be allowed to go to heaven and a murder turned Christian will spend eternity in heaven.

The Jew and the Hindu and the Muslim, etc, will all go to hell because of one thing: they don't believe in Christ.

The Christian God is a God of peace but he is equally a God of justice. He is, as the Scripture states, of purerer eyes than to behold evil. Many people ignorantly assume that they can do whatever they want if they believe in Jesus and ask for forgiveness. The fact is such people will go to hell. True faith--saving faith--is brought about by regeneration of the Holy Spirit, though the faith of Christ, and through the Blood of the Lamb. True faith and true forgiveness can only come when a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit and lives a life worthy of Christ's commandments.

[Philosopher]

The contradiction is in deed there! The answer is:

Cause you have to go through the one and only gate to Heaven and to enjoy the Gods mercy: Christ.

The problem is that this Idea is so narrow and manipulative (as in every religion) cause it addresses the Human fear and need of security of self preservation.

Thus, the "One and Only Way is there and is very narrow" and the Papa or the Priest is telling you if you are going to miss it

So you do what they tell you for example making a crusade to "liberate" the Holy city, or blessing a Cannons to kill more of your Human brothers (like the Greeks did it) etc.

The issue here is whether Christ's words--I'm "the way, the truth, and the light" have any validity. If Christ is Divine, then he is surely telling us the truth. The way is narrow but this does not mean it is untrue.

Truth, my friend, and political incorrectness are two very different things.

Following the words of some priest or papacy pope will not secure heaven; murdering in the name of religion will not bring salvation. Following the words of Christ alone bring eternal happiness.

[makedonin]

The Jew and the Hindu and the Muslim, etc, will all go to hell because of one thing: they don't believe in Christ.

Exactly as those who lived before Christ I guess

pity they did not had the chance anyways

[osiris]

what a strange and contradictroy god this christian one is. he has favourites and condemns people who have not had the oppourtunity to know him to eternal damnation.

i am surprised obviously intelligent people still believe such myths. it says more about their own fear of death than the reality of a god who plays games and has personal favourites.

[Risto the Great]

what a strange and contradictroy god this christian one is. he has favourites and condemns people who have not had the oppourtunity to know him to eternal damnation.

Yeah, this part irks me somewhat.
Nevertheless, it is still something that intrigues me at a very fundamental level.

[osiris]

rtg the story of christinaity is not that complicated or divine unless you want it or need it to be. but as so many people are so easily offended by any critique of their sacred texts i censor myslef.

there is very little new or original about christianity its not god speaking its humans, and very ignorant and racist humans at that, speaking on his behalf.

[Philosopher]

Exactly as those who lived before Christ I guess

pity they did not had the chance anyways

No. Those who lived before Christ, as in the case of the prophets of the Old Testament, were saved by faith in God; they trusted in God and had faith in the Messiah who was to come.

As for those Gentiles who lived before Christ, it varies from person to person. Before Christ, people were saved by faith; in the Christian era, people are saved by faith. The only difference is that in this era Christ has become flesh; in the previous one, people had faith in him who was to become flesh.

[Philosopher]

what a strange and contradictroy god this christian one is. he has favourites and condemns people who have not had the oppourtunity to know him to eternal damnation.

i am surprised obviously intelligent people still believe such myths. it says more about their own fear of death than the reality of a god who plays games and has personal favourites.

Whoever told you that God has favorites is grossly mistaken and erroneous, if by favorite you mean a nation of people. God is the God of all mankind--Jew and Gentile.

God favors those who seek him irrespective of their race, gender, or nationality. He favors those who believe in Christ since they are now the children of God.

God condemns people who don't know Christ because it is impossible for a human being to be made right in the eyes of God. No work--no matter how pure--can make a man or a woman just or righteous before a perfect God. Men are sinners; and as such, are in need of grace.

If humans can merit heaven through prayer and good deeds, then Christ died in vain; nay more, he came in vain. Christ came because there was no other means whereby a human being can inherit the kingdom of God.

The Law of God testifies against man; Christians trust in the faithfulness of Christ whereby God imputes righteousness to those who believe in Christ and Christ bears their iniquities on the Cross for them.

There is no escape from the reality that one day everyone will die. The Christian faith teaches us that Christ conquered death and resurrected and that those who believe in him will likewise resurrect in the full end of the age. Whether this is the reason people believe in the Christian God or not, I will let everyone determine that on their own.

What I can say for sure is that the Christian faith encompasses far more than death and life.

[makedonin]

No. Those who lived before Christ, as in the case of the prophets of the Old Testament, were saved by faith in God; they trusted in God and had faith in the Messiah who was to come.

As for those Gentiles who lived before Christ, it varies from person to person. Before Christ, people were saved by faith; in the Christian era, people are saved by faith. The only difference is that in this era Christ has become flesh; in the previous one, people had faith in him who was to become flesh.

You see, you try to maintain context where there is none!

you mean the Jews believed in the Messiah not just the "people of the prophetic times"?

Strange that those Jews thought that the Messiah is there to liberate them from Roman slavery and not from Sin Strange that those prophets of the Old Testament thought that Jahve is the war God who will deliver them from their enemy.

As for the gentiles, I would say, they have it better than us. They would have been judge (according to you) as Personal case i.e. did he do some wrong or not.

Our curse is that we know of Christ through Internet and cause we "chose" not to believe will be automatically thrown in Hell

I'm a Gnostic rather than Third Century highly dubious and debated faithful in Christ of the Priests of Constantinopel.

By the way, there are many opinions about which is the real Christian faith, Catolik, Roman, Protestant, Orthodox, than we have the National division among them, i.e. Macedonian, Russian, Greek Orthodox etc.

Which one would be real one. Or all will be judged just because they believe in Christ

Who ever Christ and God are or were, they certainly have less to do with those Interpreted stories of the Priest of the first century AD.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Philosopher, regarding your below quote, how do the ancient Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians fit into this picture? They believed in multiple God's and I am not aware of any Messiah that they may have been waiting for. Did they all go to hell also?

No. Those who lived before Christ, as in the case of the prophets of the Old Testament, were saved by faith in God; they trusted in God and had faith in the Messiah who was to come.

[makedonin]

Philosopher, regarding your below quote, how do the ancient Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians fit into this picture? They believed in multiple God's and I am not aware of any Messiah that they may have been waiting for. Did they all go to hell also?

I guess they fit in here:

As for those Gentiles who lived before Christ, it varies from person to person.

If this Gentiles were good people, they go to heaven, else to hell, so the explanation I have heard so far.

I think they have it more rightful than we have it, cause we know of Christ, and are judged not by our doings and person but by faith

The Hell is very stuffed place, I tell you, while the Heaven is most probably empty!

[Philosopher]

You see, you try to maintain context where there is none!

you mean the Jews believed in the Messiah not just the "people of the prophetic times"?

Strange that those Jews thought that the Messiah is there to liberate them from Roman slavery and not from Sin Strange that those prophets of the Old Testament thought that Jahve is the war God who will deliver them from their enemy.

As for the gentiles, I would say, they have it better than us. They would have been judge (according to you) as Personal case i.e. did he do some wrong or not.

Our curse is that we know of Christ through Internet and cause we "chose" not to believe will be automatically thrown in Hell

I'm a Gnostic rather than Third Century highly dubious and debated faithful in Christ of the Priests of Constantinopel.

By the way, there are many opinions about which is the real Christian faith, Catolik, Roman, Protestant, Orthodox, than we have the National division among them, i.e. Macedonian, Russian, Greek Orthodox etc.

Which one would be real one. Or all will be judged just because they believe in Christ

Who ever Christ and God are or were, they certainly have less to do with those Interpreted stories of the Priest of the first century AD.

Makedonin,

Judging by your response, and your lack of understanding of the Christian God, I can see why you go astray.

(1) I mean the Isralite nation of the Old Testament had an awareness of a coming Just One, the Messiah, the Son of David. The prophets of the Old Testament give many views on who this man was to be, where he was to be born, and how he was to die and resurrect. The New Testament informs us that those pious Hebrews who believed in Jehovah and kept his will were saved from Hell. However, they were not allowed to enter the Kingdom because they were still in their sins.

When Christ descended to Hell, he preached the gospel to all those faithful people who died before Christ's incarnation. Christ's death on the cross, his atonement with his shed blood, pardoned pious sinners so they might enter the presense of holiness--God.

(2) The Jews of the Roman era were blind and ignorant people--just as the Jews of this time are blind and ignorant people. They don't understand their own Bible and thought Christ was to redeem them from Roman occupation. The Jews of this day think God will redeem them from Middle Eastern Occupation. But the Old Testament does not teach this. It teaches a redemption from sin and Satan.

(3) Nowhere is Jehovah called the "war God." Show me where in the Old Testament is God called a "war God." The prophets understood that God was just and that he would fight against their enemies if and only if the Israelite nation was faithful to God.

(4) By personal case, I mean this. It cannot be expected that the race of the Gentiles to have knowledge of the True God except only in the most minute matters. The Gentile race, by and large, was a barbaric people. No person is made righteous or saved by good works. This applies before Christ and after. All have sinned, the bible states, and all have fallen short of the glory of God. For this reason, no person will be righteous by the works of the law, since by the law is a knowledge of sin.

If we take some pious gentile persons as an example: Aristotle, Cato, Cicero, Plato, Socrates, etc, all have been deemed moral, and just, and righteous by posterity, even by the Christian Church. All these men, just as all other men, are sinners in need of grace. The punishment for sin is eternal hell. If these men were saved, it was not by works. These men grasped at God vaguely, not having the true knowledge of Him. But they sought the concept of God and kept what they believed was his Will. Therefore, God alone will determine their salvation or the lack thereof.

(5) You will go to hell because you are a sinner in need of grace. If you brake the law of God, you will have to answer for your actions. You cannot stand before a Holy God. If you brake his law, and all have, you deserve judgment.

(6) There is a profound myth circulating among the ignorant that in the Third Century AD Constantine perverted the religion of Christ; that he changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday; that he turned Christ, a mere man, to a God; that he changed the Bible; that he invented the Trinity, etc. etc. etc....

All these allegations are so false it is laughable. Tell me, have you ever read the writings of the early Christians, of the first and second centuries? If so, what do they teach?

Gnosticism, my friend, is the perversion of the religion of Christ.

(7) Just because there are differing interpretations of Christianity and the Bible, does not mean that Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants have different core beliefs in the person of Christ, the Trinity, and of salvation. The issue isn't which sect is right--the issue here is whether the Bible is true.

(8) You keep hammering this rubbish about the first century. Tell me, have you ever read the writings of the first century Christians? Ignorant people assume that there is some vast conspiracy among the early priests to change the bible and who Christ was.

Give me documented proof to support your thesis. Show me where the priests or early Christians perverted the meaning of Christ and the Bible?

I'll be waiting...

[Philosopher]

Philosopher, regarding your below quote, how do the ancient Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians fit into this picture? They believed in multiple God's and I am not aware of any Messiah that they may have been waiting for. Did they all go to hell also?

I was not making the argument that non-Jews were looking for a Son of David Messiah. The Hebrews were; not the Gentiles. Although the concept of a Messiah seems to be international.

The ancient Macedonians, Thracians, and Illyrians, in addition to the Greeks and Romans, etc. all were saved or damned by faith.

All humans of all times (except Christ) have transgressed God's Law. Now the Gentiles did not have the revealed Law of God, as Moses received it on Mount Sinai. Therefore, it cannot be expected that the gentiles to be knowledgeable of some laws they never knew.

At the same time, there is a natural law, which though not the same as Revealed Law, nonetheless, is common throughout the world. By natural law I mean murder, stealing, etc. Among these peoples, there was also civil laws enacted by intelligent and erudite figures .

Regardless, all human beings, Jew and Gentile alike, deserve Hell, since all humans have sinned. This is the reason for Christ's incarnation. If there was any other way whereby a human being could be made right in the eyes of God, Christ never would have come to the earth.

The Bible teaches that by Christ's perfect obedience to the Father, his sinless life, and his atoning death on the Christ, God is able to impute Christ's righteousness to those who believe in Christ and Christ would bear their sins on the Cross.

The Gentile nations were polytheists and had little to no knowledge of the true God. However, the bible informs us that before Christ's incarnation, God excused the ignorance of the gentiles.

For example, in St. Paul's oration, he states in Acts 17: verse 18 "

Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

19

And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20

For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21

(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

22

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33

So Paul departed from among them.

Pay careful attention to verse 30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

So these Gentile nations, if saved, were saved by faith. They had faith in God or gods and they trusted in their gods for mercy and salvation.