Hellenic religion

[Vangelovski]

Guys, I don't see the point of becoming agitated over this topic, it's supposed to be a discussion not a match to see who's belief system is more superior. Where do people like myself fit into all of this, who agree with some of the points made on both sides? If I follow certain elements will I be shunned by the 'non-believers'? If I don't follow everything down the line then does that make me a bad Christian, or not Christian at all? What is the intended outcome of this discussion, to separate the 'believers' from the 'non-believers'?

I cannot speak on anyone else's behalf, but my intention was to dispel some of the misconceptions about Christianity. Many people profess to be one thing or another without fully understanding what it is they supposedly believe (not aimed at you SoM).

What makes one a Christian is their belief in Jesus as their God and Saviour.

[Serdarot]

bratko, i am not able to read a lot at the moment, from health reasons, so pls help me:

what post should i read?

i will simply explain how those "Gods" are the same God

there is ONLY ONE GOD

"one" is a singular

[Serdarot]

What makes one a Christian is their belief in Jesus as their God and Saviour.

khm

After Nikea, not before that

Before Nikea Jesus was Son of God (like we all are, with the diference Jesus was created before everything else)

His Prophet.

Not a Schizophrenic God who prayed to himself

[Serdarot]

I am neither atheist, nor theist in the sense that Christians and Moslems or Budhist are!

I see the thing that God is belief left for every individual should decide for it's own.

i also don´t like to swallow each word spoken by semi-alphabet priest who avoid to debate with me about "Adam and Eve, had children, and what happened than?"

i studied a lot about Religions to make my own opinion.

But i "put" myself between the Christians

This said, I will withdraw from this thread and put it on the ignore list!

sad...

[Bill77]

Vangelovski,

What happens to someone that lives in a remote place and never had the opertunity to pick up a bible or accept Jesus as God and Their Saviour, but they live christian like.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski,

What happens to someone that lives in a remote place and never had the opertunity to pick up a bible or accept Jesus as God and Their Saviour, but they live christian like.

Bill77,

The Bible doesn't tell us much about that situation. God will still judge them and His judgement will be just.

However, seeing as you have heard of Jesus, you should be worried about your eternal address.

[julie]

Vangelovski,
sooooooooooooooo

small children that have yet to learn to read the bible will be judged and should be worried about their eternal address???????????????????

[Bratot]

So you don't have to be a christian in order to be judged according the christian awarness of a sin?

What if I spent my life isolated and was never given the opportunity to be baptized but still I was not a sinner according any of the christian commands, am I still judged for having a mortal sin?

[Atanasovski]

Alone for that fact, it is absolutely unfair that we should believe non credible eyewitness story, but also be punished for that, while they had it easy on them, they saw what they saw, so they knews, had empirical evidence, thus had no space for belief, they knew!

"Let’s just suppose that there is a God who is all Holy and Righteous; and suppose that this God freely creates mankind and gives mankind the gift of life. Suppose he sets His creatures in an ideal setting and gives them the freedom to participate in all the glories of the created order. Suppose, however, that God imposes just one restriction on them, warning, that if they violate that restriction they’ll die. Would such a God have a right to impose such a restriction? And suppose that for no just reason, the ungrateful creature disobeys that one restriction the moment God’s back was turned. Suppose that instead of killing that creation he redeemed them. Suppose the descendants of that first transgression broadly and widely increase their hostility towards their Creator, to the point that the whole world became rebellious to God and each person ‘did what was right in their own eyes.’ And suppose that God still determined to redeem these people and freely gave special gifts to one people (the Jews) so that through them the whole world would be blessed. And suppose God delivered this people from poverty and enslavement to a ruthless Egyptian Pharaoh and suppose that this privileged nation, as soon as it was liberated, rose up in further rebellion against God. And suppose they took his law and violated it constantly. And suppose that God, still intent upon redemption, sent messengers and prophets to plead with his people to return to Him. And suppose his people killed those messengers and mocked the message. And suppose the people began to worship idols of stone and things fashioned of their own hand. And suppose these people invented religions that were contrary to the truth of the real God and worshiped created things rather than the Creator. Suppose that in an ultimate act of redemption, the Creator God Himself became Incarnate in the person of His Son. And suppose this Son came into the world, not to condemn the world but to redeem it. But suppose this very Son of God was rejected, slandered, mocked, tortured and murdered. Yet suppose that God accepted the murder of his own Son as punishment for the sins of the very persons who murdered Him. And suppose that God offered to His Son’s murderers total amnesty, complete forgiveness, transcendent peace that comes with the cleansing of all guilt, victory over death, eternal life and complete happiness. And suppose God gave these people as a free gift the promise of a future life that would be without pain, without sickness, without death, without tears;
and suppose God said to these people there is one thing that I demand, I demand that you honor my only Begotten Son and you worship and serve him alone. Suppose God did all that. Would you be willing to say to him, “God that’s not fair. You haven’t done enough.“? "
- R.C. Sproul

I agree completely with you. I will had it all! I won't throw their world around anymore!

You really haven't given any good arguments against Christianity. On top of that you haven't given any good reasons why anyone should think your world view is true.

The reason why I engaged in the discussion, and pulled the extreme scientific line is because with contrasts one can depict gaps in certain belief system.

You tried to pull the "extreme scientific" line but failed miserably...

I am neither atheist, nor theist in the sense that Christians and Moslems or Budhist are! I see the thing that God is belief left for every individual should decide for it's own.

If it is up to each individual to make their own image of God then isn't it just illusory.. What is the point?.. That's just like making up an imaginery friend like a child would.. God either exists or He doesn't.

If God is perfect and almighty, which he should be, he has to find a way to save us all, if we are really to be saved from anything!

God has provided a way but he will allow you the freedom to make your choice. He has given you full control of your heart, and he will allow it to harden.

This said, I will withdraw from this thread and put it on the ignore list!

...you'll be back...

[Onur]

Since you dont want to read, watch this video, i think it will settle the issue:
YouTube - The Historical distortion of Jesus in the Qur'an


Are you saying that the God of Islam is the God we should worship since the Koran considers Jesus an important prophet, and the virgin Mary the most holy woman? Am i missing your point?
If that is what you are saying then its just not a good argument for Islam. If you consider it an argument for Islam, then why not the thousands of other cults that take their own spin on Jesus. Like the Jehovahs witnesses who teach that Jesus is an angel. If one teaches that Jesus was crucified and the other doesn't, then they cant both be right. Just view the video...

Mate, there is no such a thing like "God of Islam". There is only one God and it`s the same God for the Jews, Christians and Muslims too. I am not trying to promote you to believe Koran or anything else in that sense. I just wanted to confirm Serdarot`s sentences since i am living in a country with %95+ Muslim population and i generally know what Koran says. On the other hand, i am not a Muslim in Koran`s sense so promoting Islam or any other religion is out of question for me.

In the video you linked, the guy just comically animates a supposed discussion between Mohammad and God. It`s just plain stupid because for Koran, God never speaks or communicates with someone in person, even if he is a prophet. He uses his negotiator, the angel Gabriel to deliver his message to his prophet.

Also his assumption about Mohammad being ignorant of new testament is related with your belief about Mohammad being a prophet or not. According to Islam, Mohammad is the God`s prophet and whats written in the Koran is not the Mohammad`s words. Those are the words of God given to him by the Gabriel at the holy mountain in Medina and he recited all of it by first hand as soon as he returned from the holy mountain, several people written down all of these words immediately because the very first sentence of the revelation he received was "Read it(Koran), in the name of God, read it", therefore it had to be written down immediately. This process continued for few years `till the Koran completed.

Those are the facts about Mohammad since he lived in 7th century AD and there are several proofs and historical records like that. So, he never written Koran himself unlike the Yankee on youtube claims so. He just recited and several people immediately noted down whatever he says word by word. This is the historical fact about him but ofc you can consider him as a real prophet or just a pothead who cheated billions of people with the theory of Islam. I don't care what you believe, it`s up to you. If you ask my own opinion, to me, all the holy books are just a collection of old beliefs and writings which goes back `till the Sumerians of 5000 BC.

Also why do you rely on the opinion of some guy on youtube with American Yankee accent? If you wanna know what is Islam`s view, just google for the complete Koran in PDF format and read it yourself. You scare to lured by it if you do so? Dont be afraid, i read old and new testament, Talmud and Koran as well but i am neither Jew, Christian nor Muslim atm. So, it should be pretty safe for you to read it as well Then at least, you can have an opinion about what is the conception of God in other beliefs than your own and you can do comparisons yourself other than relying the opinion of 3rd persons.

[Atanasovski]

So you don't have to be a christian in order to be judged according the christian awarness of a sin?

What if I spent my life isolated and was never given the opportunity to be baptized but still I was not a sinner according any of the christian commands, am I still judged for having a mortal sin?

Baptized or not baptized, aware or unaware - You still have a conscience... You do not have to be a Christian to know that some things are objectively wrong. You will be judged by a Just God.

[Vangelovski]

So you don't have to be a christian in order to be judged according the christian awarness of a sin?

What if I spent my life isolated and was never given the opportunity to be baptized but still I was not a sinner according any of the christian commands, am I still judged for having a mortal sin?

Bratot,

Everyone is a sinner. The commandments were given to us to show us how big a sinners we are.

God created everyone, whether they believe in Him or not, He will judge them in the end.

Julie,

I personally do not have an answer to that question, but will try and find one. However, God knows all of our hearts and how much we know/understand. All will be judged by Him and His judgement is just.

Onur,

The Christian God is a triune God - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit. Is that Islamic god you follow the same?

[Bill77]

Baptized or not baptized, aware or unaware - You still have a conscience... You do not have to be a Christian to know that some things are objectively wrong. You will be judged by a Just God.

Thanks Atanasovski,
this is my belief aswell. I would hate to think Benny Hinn will go to heavan ahead of Ghandi.

Then again, i am not God so who am i to judge.

[makedonin]

Serdarot, staying away will be hard as I see


Atanasche,

you haven't prove nothing! Just God in your way is no Just God at all! If you don't imagine things you ain't able to make anything out of the Bible!

That is why you pull the "misterious" knowledge of yours out of thin air!

And for the science, I never tried to be 100% accurate in any of my statements! I tested you, experimented on you! I proposed theories, as any scientist would do! If I am to observe something different, I will review my theory!

There is no such thing as "failing miserably" as you like to put it in science! Failing miserably is in the domain of the so called ABSOLUTISTS worlds, your world, the world of the Bible or any other holy book!

One more time for you:

In order to talk about the nature of the universe and to discuss questions
such as whether it has a beginning or an end, you have to be clear about
what a scientific theory is. I shall take the simpleminded view that a
theory is just a model of the universe, or a restricted part of it, and a
set of rules that relate quantities in the model to observations that we
make. It exists only in our minds and does not have any other reality
(whatever that might mean). A theory is a good theory if it satisfies two
requirements. It must accurately describe a large class of observations on
the basis of a model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it
must make definite predictions about the results of future observations.


A Brief History of Time!
Stephen Hawking's

The religious people of your kind leck one thing that any moderate scientist has, HUMILITY TO SAY THAT HE DOES NOT KNOW, BUT HAS AN OPINION OUT OF THIS OR THAT REASON!


Here is a real science!

I have theory about your kind, and predicts one thing, that is:

You and your comrades Vangelovski and Philosopher will continue to attack me cause I question your belief, cause you adhere and restrict your self to one book, and think it is absolute!

Lets see if I have to review my theory!

[Vangelovski]

Makedonin,

If you are going to throw in a red-herring and then an answer is provided, can you at least attempt a rebuttal before you throw in your next red-herring, pretending as if neither question was asked nor answer provided? You've done nothing but throw around some pretty lame assumptions and random "facts" that you have invented yourself and when they are shown for what they are, you pretend as if it never happened and you continue merrily along.