Hellenic religion

[Philosopher]

The concept of types, figures, pictures, and shadows are not arbitrary; I’m not “twisting” the words of the Old Testament to fit my argument—and this is not the reason why there are so many sects in Christendom. The concept comes from the New Testament, which serves as an instruction on how to interpret the Old Testament and to penetrate, with trenchant analysis, the real hidden meaning of the text.
Ever notice why Christ said as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth?

Why would Christ take an historic event in the life of Jonah apply it to himself? For what purpose? Unless of course the no only reason Jonah was in that predicament was to prefigure Christ’s descent to Hades?
Hosea’s remark was only made to pre-figure the real Israel being called out of Egypt. In fact, the only reason Israel in the Old Testament came out of Egypt was to serve as an example—to prefigure—the real thing thousands of years later.

Here are some of the New Testament passages that explain biblical interpretation.

Hebrews 9.23-24
“It is necessary, therefore, the pattern indeed of the things in the heavens to be purified with these, and the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these; for not into holy places made with hands did the Christ enter—figures of the true—but into the heaven itself…”

Hebrews 11.18-19
“of whom it was said—“In Isaac a seed be called to thee;’ reckoning that even out of the dead God is able to raise up, whence also in a figure (type) he did receive him.”

Colossians 2.16-17
“Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of Sabbaths, which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of Christ…”

[makedonin]

Makedonin,

You have been vague about your beliefs - maybe you can tell us whether you do believe God exists or you don't believe that God exists?

Vangelovski I said, we the human being as part of this limited Universe have no way of knowing who or what God is, cause he has to be out of our limited time space continuum!

That is why God is subject to a belief!

My answear to your question is I don't know! I won't go into the believing!

To that I will say this! I am born Christian, have read the Bible many times. I like the teaching of Jessus when it comes to the compassion, love of the neighbor etc. That is practical! I want to practice it, not cause I was told, cause I have to be saved from something, but cause I see the value of it, I see it is beneficial for me and my family and my enviorment!
The rest, all those interpretation and "evidence" as you call it, is something that only brings misunderstanding between people, and drives the man away from the compassion and the love for the neighbor.

It is contraproductive. Good example is the Philosopher guy. I can read it out from his comments about the Jews and me for example! You get the impression, he breeds hate, not love in that instance!
He can't come and tell me that he has compassion with me or the Jews, but he himself can't believe that. That is why it is contraproductive and double standard.

The same thing is my experience with other Christian believers who hang on the so called "body of evidence"!

[makedonin]

Philosopher, if I say you are right, will your faith be stronger. Can you sleep better?

If that is so, than I take the liberty and say, Gosh, I am sorry, I was mistaken, go to sleep, and return your peace!

I hope it does it for you!

[fyrOM]

Vangelovski many people on the forum come from different religions so I am not trying to imply anything by my question. I notice you seem to have a strong interest in religion and I don’t know any Macedonians with such a strong interest who are not studying to be a priest. Are you a member of one of the newer Christian religions. On TV they talk about bible study. You don’t have to answer if you feel the question is inappropriate in any way.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski I said, we the human being as part of this limited Universe have no way of knowing who or what God is, cause he has to be out of our limited time space continuum!

That is why God is subject to a belief!

My answear to your question is I don't know! I won't go into the believing!

To that I will say this! I am born Christian, have read the Bible many times. I like the teaching of Jessus when it comes to the compassion, love of the neighbor etc. That is practical! I want to practice it, not cause I was told, cause I have to be saved from something, but cause I see the value of it, I see it is beneficial for me and my family and my enviorment!
The rest, all those interpretation and "evidence" as you call it, is something that only brings misunderstanding between people, and drives the man away from the compassion and the love for the neighbor.

It is contraproductive. Good example is the Philosopher guy. I can read it out from his comments about the Jews and me for example! You get the impression, he breeds hate, not love in that instance!
He can't come and tell me that he has compassion with me or the Jews, but he himself can't believe that. That is why it is contraproductive and double standard.

The same thing is my experience with other Christian believers who hang on the so called "body of evidence"!

So can I take your answer as you are unsure whether God exists or does not exist?

The evidence that you dismiss, can you tell us why you feel it is not evidence? Why does it bring about "misunderstanding"? And why does evidence in favour of atheism - which you have provided - not bring about "misunderstanding"?

My view is that ALL of the evidence should be looked at genuinely in order to bring about understanding.

If you are not sure whether God exists, how can you know that the morals prescribed in the Bible, which you identify, have any value?

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski many people on the forum come from different religions so I am not trying to imply anything by my question. I notice you seem to have a strong interest in religion and I don’t know any Macedonians with such a strong interest who are not studying to be a priest. Are you a member of one of the newer Christian religions. On TV they talk about bible study. You don’t have to answer if you feel the question is inappropriate in any way.

OziMak,

I study the Bible because I believe in God as He has revealed Himself in the Bible.

I'm not sure about your preist, but ours give a sermon at the end of his service (Macedonian Orthodox). He tells us to read our Bibles.

In fact, the Bible itself encourages you to read it. Further, the very reason for the existence of the Bible is so we read it and so we can learn about God and salvation. If we weren't supposed to read the Bible, why would God go to the trouble of making sure it was written and preserved?

What is a "newer Christian religion"?

[makedonin]

The evidence that you dismiss, can you tell us why you feel it is not evidence?

I hope that in the short time I have, I can articulate it good enough for your or anyone else understanding. I apologize of my insufficient English and lexical errors! English is not my first language.

Let us first look at the Bible, and the methodology how we investigate!

• When you look at the Bible, you presuppose that it is the word of God! Than go on examining it, and make assumption that out of this or that reason this or that event happened!

• When I look at the Bible, I don't presuppose that it is the word of God! I look at it as what it is, a compilation of different Books written by different Authors in different Centuries!
  That leads to the state of mine where I leck your mistical (imaginary) thread between them.

That leads to:

• You go to the Bible and read something in the OT and than find comparation in the New Testament! When it is litararly, you call it Prophecy, when it is not an shadow, you say that there is a secret knowledge that one needs to understand the whole type shadow thing you have been presenting! You claim that knowledge, but don't tell us how did you aquire it! It is fundamental to know how you aquired it! Since it is type of secret knowledge, that misteriously renders events which had literarlly to do nothing with one another, and still you claim it was supernatural intent behind it. For me is of interest how did you come to this supernatural knowledge? Did it come into prayer to you? Or was it another priest who was contemplating on it told you how to interpret things? If it is the later, than it is not your knowledge, thus you can't claim it is supernatural, cause you can't prove that the person gave it to you aquired it in supernatural way! To be honest, even if you say you aquired this knowledge yourself in a supernatural way, you still can't prove that this is so! So NO PROVE OF THAT! It appears that this is the case. So to justify the secret supernatural knowledge, you go cross reference between the OT & NT, take only snipets and say, it fits perfectly! Is that so? I see that many of those quotes are taken out of context! Other have only imaginative similarities which are hardly an evidence.
  But you present this as evidence!

• When you present me that evidence I bare in mind that all those Prophecies that are used in the NT and to which the NT tells us that it is fulfillment, were written down before some 700-1000 years in the OT! That means that those in the NT who perpetuate that the Profecy came true already knew about the Profecy, so they had only to pick some and state that it went in fulfillment. We still haven't found any archeological evidence to support that Jessus was existing, let alone those Provecies. This people who used those Profecies were all religious man, knew the OT almost by their heart! So you will ask, why did they do that, why did they connected those passages? They had all motives of the world to look into the OT look for Mesiah Prophecies and claim that those came true! The writter of the Matthew Gospel for example intended to prove to the Jews that Jessus was the promissed Messiah! They had to substantiate their belief, had to give fuel to the new believers they had to win, etc! Other to that comes the possibility that the books of the NT were written not during the time of the events but later, most probably by the desciples of the Apostels! How accured is that method of transfering the knowledge about events that took place at least 50-120 years before! Next to that. We already know that there were other competing Mesiah beside Jessus in that time. Others that were more like the Idea of the Jews what the Messiah should be. There are many other things that would sprang the scope of my available time! It is worth for a book it self.

But I am open for a real evidence! I will accept any real evidence that can prove your assertions!

Not cross referencing between books with gap of some 700-1000 years inbetween, and than talking about some Prophecy fulfillment.

Why does it bring about "misunderstanding"?

It brings missunderstanding because the whole thing is prone to manipulation and twicking! Cause that is so, everyone wants to be on the right side to secure his well-being in the after life, thus anyone is trying to say that his interpretation is the real one!You can observe this by all those Christian Sects of today! This brings about tensions, and many other ugly thing! This tensions even grow stronger cause the whole matter is an existential matter! It is the natural thing for any living being to want secure it's existence, be it here or in the after life! That is what man was doing long before Christ or the OT came to light! So, when some preacher comes to someone who, haven't done much thinking about the matter, and tells him that if he does not take the only begotten door to secure his after life existence he will burn in eternal Hell, than the result of it will be the only thing that can happen, fear! Out of that fear, all motivations for the later believe and perpetuating of the whole thing comes out! That results in what every religion does, goes arround and gethers follower! The followers are to find more followers, cause as many as they are, as large the group it is, the more secure they are on the path! The Christianity spread, cause it was preached to those poor man, who were suffering, and they got promissed, that if not in this life, they will be the first in the next life! That is typical manipulation! Why should any living man wait for the next life of which he is not even sure it exist, and has to suffer in this life? I guess something went wrong with the master plan. In the OT there was paradise on Earth, it was meant that well-being is secured on Earth! During the NT days, faced with the fact that misery is on Eart, and there is no way that well-being is to be secured on Earth, new master plan is forged, it has to be in the after life.
There are so many other things to be seen in the whole construct.That is not Bible exclusive. You can find it all over in the so called Holy Books!

And why does evidence in favour of atheism - which you have provided - not bring about "misunderstanding"?

I don't perpetuate any atheism, nor theories like BigBang does that. They even say, what was there before is unknown to us. It may have been God, may have been not.

Said that, lets do some explaining.

The Dogma is away, that means no knowledge is absolute! It is extendable, it is debatable, and everyone can participate.There is no more only one source of knowledge that is the right one, the absolute one! Knowledge should be supported by evidence! At the current level, each nation or religious group has it's own Dogma, some kind of absolute knowledge, that should be defended by all means, not debated and see if it fit reality and put the things in the right place by not losing the bigger picture! That is on the Global level! And that concept of methodology have brought about every thinkable progress to man kind!

On Individual level it urges the Individual to think for himself. Not to follow blindly any authority in the world! That is not enough for mutual understanding! But it puts forward a debate about anything! And if we don't talk with one another, how can we comunicate! We have seen what any kind of dictatorship brings about! When this is done it puts the responsibility of each individiual for his deeds into his own hands. Anyone has to bring about passion and patience to explore and try to understand the other! The other also has right to exist under the sun!

If we learn to think for our self, examine our environment and our inner world, look to one another with out prejudices of any kind, talk all out, it would be another thing! Conflict comes as evident here, when the one or the other has dogmatic way of doing things.

But this utopia will never come to exist!

If you are not sure whether God exists, how can you know that the morals prescribed in the Bible, which you identify, have any value?

I don't need a supernatural being to know what is good or bad!

There is one general rule about this one, but to understand it one has to admit that everyone including him self is an egoistic being, cause the whole movment and interaction with the outer world has it's beginning in the ones own motivations and needs!

Recognizing that, there are two directions one can take:

• One can move and act in ones own interests and take consideration of his environment, so he keeps in mind that the others also have the right to exist under the sun.
  
  That is positiv egoistic existence. All good deeds performed by some individuals are out of their own interest, cause it makes them feel good, accepted, or like you want to be saved from something or other things to that. But it is perfectly all right with that, as long it serves and not endangeour the others.

or

• One can move and act with own interests and do not take consideration of his environment. He can try and manipulate it with out regard to the others needs and rights.
  
  This is egocentristic existence.

This related to the Bible can make me see that those morals prescribed are good! But I won't do it cause the Bible says, I will do it out of the following reasons:

Only the human think that he is isolated from his environment, and in reality each and everyone is part of a larger existence, thus not isolated but bound to his environment. The first way of interacting with ones own environment will result in lesser rubbing or conflicts, the later depending on the degree of the damage the individual have made can even end with destruction of that particular individual.



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Than since you have been avoiding my question about your faith, I will put it this way:

Jessus made this statement/prediction:

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What does that mean when we see the world of today?! How many believers are left there in the world?!
Do you perform such miracles and deeds as Jessus did !? How great is your faith!? I am to meet Christian believer who does anything Jessus has done!

It seems we are in the same boat when faith is questioned! I can't move a mountain, you can't move a mountain! Where is it heading, it is up to you

[julie]

Makedonin, you have presented a very interesting post, and have susbtantiated it in a very articulate manner. I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with what you have posted, but saying well done, and your English is fantastic!

May I ask, you dont need to answer, what degree you hold? It appears you have studied psychology to me at great depth batko

[makedonin]

Makedonin, you have presented a very interesting post, and have susbtantiated it in a very articulate manner. I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with what you have posted, but saying well done, and your English is fantastic!

Thank you julie.

I don't seek agreement. I presented my case!

I am open to learn something new! Hope it comes

May I ask, you dont need to answer, what degree you hold? It appears you have studied psychology to me at great depth batko

If you don't mind, I won't disclose such infos on public forum.

[julie]

All good

[Philosopher]

Makedonin,

Your ignorance of the text is outstanding; and is only exceeded by your impudence and rashness.

In regard to John 14.12,

“Verily, verily, I say to you, he who is believing in me, the works that I do—that one also shall do, and greater than these he shall do, because I go on to my Father;”

One must understand this verse according to one of the first few rules of biblical interpretation, which you sorely lack.
1. Context;
2. Compare Scripture to Scripture

The context Christ is speaking of in this whole chapter and the surrounding chapters is that it was necessary for him to leave this word but that he would not leave the apostles—the audience he is discoursing with—alone and without comfort. The Holy Spirit, said Christ, could not come until Christ left this world; the Holy Spirit would lead the apostles to all truth and remind them of all things Christ taught so they could teach and record it to others.

We understand that when the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost, the apostles were endowed with powers and miracles like those of Christ—healing the sick, raising the dead, supernatural feats—as recorded in the Book of Acts. The works “were greater,” only in the extent that the Holy Spirit, not bound to one person, as in Christ Jesus, could more freely and without restriction work the works of God through the aposltes; and, what’s more, the “greater,” does not necessarily “better,” but perhaps of more importance, as in establishing the Church and converting souls thereby. After all, Jesus did teach elsewhere that a servant is not greater than his master or he who is sent is not greater than he who sends; but it is fitting for a servant to be like his master.

There is no reason to suggest that Christ’s teaching on doing greater works applies to all believers of all ages, for we understand from the context of the rest of the New Testament, that such was not the case and was limited principally, though not exclusively, to the audience he was teaching to, i.e. the apostles.

Anytime someone takes one verse out of context, a person is liable to make an erroneous interpretation of the text.

[makedonin]

Philosopher, have you any prove other than your scriptures and your "correct interpretation"!?

Will you than disagree with what Jessus said about the faith?! The question you always avoid?

Know the tree by its fruit! Can you produce anything out of words and some interpretations?!

Can you move a mountain? How great is your faith in Jessus? Weren't you sent into the world to do the deeds in the name of Christ!? The Church you speak seen as the fruit has done so much manipulation and other dirty things! Which is the tree of that fruit? Who should be represented from them? You as individual, show me your fruit! Or do you only have excusess to offer!?

If I am possessed of ignorance or deamon, dispel it in the name of Christ, or admit your unfaithfulness.

No more excuses, ony the apostel have those powers. The apostels were not the only audience of Jessus, there were masses of people who listened to him! You as Christian has to have the recieved the Holy Spirit! Ask him for help, do a miracle, or spare me the "teachings"!

I guess I am wasting my time.

[Bratot]

There was a great documentary two years ago called DIALECTICA where exactly this kind of dillemas were discussed.

YouTube - Dialectica Ancient Macedonia Part 3

I think the videos can be found somewhere on the net, like youtube, google videos etc.

[Atanasovski]

I said, we the human being as part of this limited Universe have no way of knowing who or what God is, cause he has to be out of our limited time space continuum!

Hi Makedonin. Im confused. How is it that we cannot know who or what God is purely because he isn’t bound by space and time? I guess I can understand that if God was not interested in humanity, although we may infer his existence through natural theology, we could never really come to know him personally.
But if God does exist and is interested in us, couldn't he have revealed himself through Jesus Christ and/or divine revelation?

[makedonin]

Hi Makedonin. Im confused. How is it that we cannot know who or what God is purely because he isn’t bound by space and time? I guess I can understand that if God was not interested in humanity, although we may infer his existence through natural theology, we could never really come to know him personally.
But if God does exist and is interested in us, couldn't he have revealed himself through Jesus Christ and/or divine revelation?

Hi Atanasovski,


The definition of God is, that "he was is and will be"! Thus supernatural, abov nature, above or out of the known universe we know of! So he is perfect supernatural being!
So God should have been existing before the creation of this universe has begann he is existent now and when universe i.e. world and creation ends, he will be still existing.

So it is obvious that by that definition he is out of the bounds of the universes beginning life span and end, thus in our language endless!

Everything in this universe has a Form. This Form has it's beginning and it's end! The form has it's limits. It is bound to space and has it's duration of time. During that time, it moves into that space and changes it's form with time, till it's time ends and it cease existing! It does not matter how long this takes, it has it's beginning and it's end.

Can you explain me how this revelation should be performed?

• Something endless as God, no beginning and no ending, something inmortal, which is out of this limited creation, how can it enter a Human Form and become limited to that Form? You presupose that Jessus was God in mans form, so we could meet him in person. But can you tell me how the unlimited came to be limited?

• We as limited beings, have limited capabilities to grasp something out of our bounds, and certainly have no means to penetrate the out of our universe. We can look into our creation, we can develop telescops to look into the universe. But how are we supose to go beyond the universe and see God, all that with our limited means, to see the unlimited.

• Words are part of this universe. They try to shape to express ideas of how we see the world and the universe!
  No word is sufficient and full for it self. Another word should be considered to give the word meaning. Thus sentences are built! Many sentences create story, but the story is never complete by it self.
  Than you come to the Bible, the bible try to use the limited to express or bring near the unlimited!
  
  How can it succeed in that?
  No Idea and word can express the unlimited!

Vangelovski was using a parabel about some kid wanting to put the ocean into a pit!

Can we do that, can we?!